QuoteReplyTopic: Goa Inquisition Posted: 19-Jul-2012 at 01:57
Originally posted by SuryaVajra
Originally posted by Nick1986
Pagan gods can appear devilish to the ignorant. The destruction of Hindu idols reminds me of Spanish attitudes to Aztec religion and (ironically) Protestants smashing images in Catholic churches
"All creatures that walk the path of life have equal right to that path" Rig Veda
It was not about the gods or how they appeared.
It was a fanatic "`My Godism", which required the belief that all other religions are false and must be replaced.
A perverted unuttered faith that anyone not Christian or Muslim was less than human.
To quote Sita Ram ,
Jehovah says,
“I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of
slavery. You shall have no other gods set against me. You
shall not have a carved image for yourself nor the likeness of anything
in the heavens above, or on the earth below, or in the waters under the
earth. You shall not bow down to them, for, I, the Lord your God am a jealous
god. I punish the children for the sins of their forefathers to the third
and fourth generations of those that hate me.”
He does not make it clear how homage to other gods means hatred for him. He
betrays the pathological state of mind in which a person feels slighted
simply because some other person is praised. In any case, he goes ahead
and lays down that “whoever sacrifices to any other god but the Lord shall
be put to death under solemn ban.”`
The appellation "`pagan" seems to imply "less moral" or "`less pious"
All Gods are Pagan , Abrahamic or Dharmic.
No God can be proven or justified, if you ask me.
But I must speak on some historical connections between the two. If they had been known 300 years ago, perhaps the GI might not have happened.
The Abrahamic fury must have ceased for a moment to look at its Dharmic roots.
Even the story of the flood was adopted from the Vedic Manu, through the Babylonians.
You might not be aware of Vedanta, how Hinduism is a mere skin concealing that profound, oldest and mightiest of all Philosophies.
You will be surprised how the "`Gnosis"` of Philo found in Johns gospel is adapted from the Sphota theory of Vedanta Philosophy.
You will be surprised at the Buddhist origins of Christianity.
And Vedantas influence on the ill fated Gnostic sects.,
If I may interject, Pagan is a word that is supposed to merely mean that someone worships a god other than one approved of as a Deity by the holy scriptures known as the Bible. The Bible can be just as harsh towards false adherents to the faith (Actually worse) than outright Pagans.
And you know, I'm not surprised at the Buddhist origins of Christianity, because it has none. :/ I don't mean to sound rude or overly abrasive on that fact, however. There is some evidence to suggest that Jesus went with his uncle Joseph, who was a tradesmen, to the Isles of the Britons. (Although don't quote me on that.)
SuryaV, in re your: "We can't know that for certain, can we?"
I'd say the record speaks for itself. 500 Spaniards leading Armies of Moctezuma's former subject peoples against Tenochtitlan. Armies that numbered in the tens of thousands. My impression is that you are really drawing a parallel between the Spanish conquest of Mexico and Muslim conquests of parts of India. I cannot really reply to the second, and I don't believe you've really studied the first. The Inquisition in Spain was used primarily as an instrument of state, to weld Spain into a single nation. As such, its methods and goals would have differed from the Inquisition in Portugal. The exception to this would have been the period in which Spain essentially annexed Portugal, a la the 1938 German takeover of Austrian via the "Anschluss". When Portugal was not under Spanish domination, it was not a part of the Holy Roman Empire as it was under Carlos V and Filipe II. I'll take your word as to how it was applied in India during those times, but to place the Inquisition in context, it is necessary to also look at the state of religious tolerance outside the Catholic areas. Remember that the Salem Witch trials took place among a sect of Protestant reformists, and even the recent Chiapas rebellion in Mexico had a certain religious tinge to it that reminded this reader at least of Europe in the 1500s.
Some quotations from scholars led me to think otherwise
Note that these quotes describe violence against all Native americans in General
1492 –
was a landmark year for all natives of the world. It marks the beginning of a
systematic war waged against them by Western arms and religious ideology.
It marked to the beginning of their struggle to maintain their tradition,
their beliefs and their customs, their ways of seeing against the overwhelming
influence of Western culture.
The conquest was accompanied by genocide unparalleled in history. In the
century after
Columbus
over 2/3rds of native population of
America
died due to disease – perhaps 50 million people.
Christopher
Columbus 1451 – May 20, 1506) was a
navigator, colonizer and one of the first Europeans to explore the Americas, wrote to the Queen of Spain:
“Our
European civilization will bring light to the natives in the darkness but for
ourselves we will obtain gold and with gold we will be able to do what we
want.”
Bertrand
Russell(1872 - 1970) was a British philosopher, logician, mathematician
and advocate for social reform. In 1950, Russell was made a Nobel Laureate in
Literature, "in recognition of his varied and significant writings in which
he champions humanitarian ideals and freedom of thought".
He had said:
"The
[Catholic] Spaniards in
Mexico
and
Peru
used to baptize Indian infants and then immediately dash their brains out; by
this means they secured that these infants went to heaven."
"The
Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built
a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent
strangling, and hanged
thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve
Apostles...
then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned
alive."
Christian priests or friars
burning the 'heathen' Native Americans
Indian
Chief Hatuey
was a Taino from the
island
of
Hispaniola
who was a witness to the atrocities the Spaniards were committing upon his
people. The Hispaniola Tainos had received Columbus and his fellow Europeans
with open arms, and the Spaniards had brutalized the Indians in return.
The Indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and
burned alive. As they
were tying him to
the stake
a Franciscan friar
urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather
than descend into hell.
Hatuey
replied
that
"if
heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell."
Santiago" was the
battle cry, and the name would often be shouted out by the soldiers in their
massacre of the Indians."The
cry "Santiago" became a call for the heavenly power to purge the Earth
of all non-Christians infidels, no matter if they were Muslims or Jews in
Europe, Hindus or Natives of the Americas.
Note:
1492 - Began the process of genocide of Native Americans. "The
only good Indian is a dead Indian".
Today, in spite of 500 years of a genocidal colonization, there is an estimated
40 million Indigenous peoples in the Americas. In Guatemala, the Mayan peoples
make up 60.3 percent of the population, and in Bolivia Indians comprise over 70
percent of the total population. Despite this, these Indigenous peoples lack any
control over their own lands and comprise the most exploited and oppressed
layers of the population; characteristics that are found also in other
Indigenous populations in the settler states of the Americas
This was an era that saw the blossoming of a unified
Central American civilization. The Toltecs were very prosperous. They were accomplished
architects, carpenters and mechanics. The Aztecs also made some striking cultural
advances. They developed a lake civilization based on the island in Lake Texcoco, where
they built their remarkable city. Mexico-Tenochtitlan, which was surrounded by the
colorful Chinampas, or floating gardens. The city was described by Bernal de
Diaz, the
companion of the Spanish commander Cortes, as a dreamland which inspired the Spanish
invaders to lyrical adulation and murderous plunder. Diaz wrote that the Mexicans were like the Romans, and that there was
nothing in Spain to match the royal palace of Montezuma.
HernandoCortes is said to have
slaughtered,
in less than two hours, six thousand people who had gathered
in a temple patio. Destruction of Aztec cities was so complete that almost everything lay
in ruins.
The elite of the Asiomericans were put to death almost to the last man. After
his entry into the conquered capital Tenochtitlan, Cortes
wrote that "you could not put down your foot without stepping on an Indian
corpse." In addition, his soldiery, a few years
later in the Inca Empire, driven by lust for gold, melted down irreplaceable works of art
by the ton to get the precious metal. Thus, the Aztecs civilization came to violent end.
If the history of pre-Columbian America, is obscure, it is
because after the Spanish conquest, the first Bishop
of Mexico, Juan de Zumarraga, burned all the records of the Library of
Texcoco in Tlateloco market square as "the work of the Devil,"
and religious
fanatics destroyed temples and statues.
Zumarraga,
gloating over his success, wrote to his superiors in 1531 that he alone had five hundred
temples razed to the ground and twenty thousand idols destroyed.
Fray Diego de Landa, the second
Bishop of Yucatan, following the pattern, reduced
the Maya Library in Yucatan to ashes in 1562. Post-Columbus history of America for 300
years was the story of ruthless destruction and fanatics like Bishop Diego da Landa burnt
a huge bonfire of valuable documents and nothing but the three codices of 'Chilam Balam' could survive
the holocaust....
He wrote Relación de las cosas de Yucatán, A Narrative of the Things of Yucatan
in 1566, Therein the states,
"We found a large number of their books of
these letters, and because they did not have anything in which there was not
superstition and falsehoods of the devil, we burned them all, which they felt
very sorry for and which caused them grief."
The Story of Betrayal
The Spaniards were mistaken by Asiomericans for their legendary
white gods, who were to be made welcome and it they inflicted suffering it was to be
accepted as a divine judgment. And by a tragic coincidence, the Spanish conquerors
invaded Mexico at about the time, in 1519, as the Aztec priests and tradition had
predicted the return of the white gods. The Aztecs even offered the Spanish conquistadores
the vestments of Quetzalcoatl and other gods and considered performing human sacrifice to
them in case they were fatigued after such a long journey. Through out the Incas Empire,
the Spainiards were greeted as Viracocha, the Inca name of the great White God
they had been waiting for. It is only when the Asiomericans were completely horrified and
disillusioned by the brutalities and merciless killings, that they recognized their
mistake.
The realization that the Spainard's were not gods, but popolocas
(barbarians), however, came too late.
The European conquerors of South and Central America not only
destroyed practically all the records and literature of Asiomerica, but created an utterly
distorted images of the American past by taking some of its ugly features out
of context and magnifying them out of proportion. For instance, the human sacrifice
practiced by the Aztecs was repeatedly stressed without explaining its extenuating
features, and without pointing out that human sacrifice had not been unknown to other
peoples, such as in Europe and Rome. Taking their technique a step further they contrasted
this picture with that of their own deeds in Asiomerica in which European
misdemeanor,
caprice, and criminality were soft-pedaled and civilized and human behavior emphasized.
Most people believe that Asiomericans were uncivilized hordes
with an occasional freak of knowledge, who had contributed nothing of permanent value to
civilization by 1492. Despite a good deal of information to the contrary, there is
resistance to accepting a change in this image. Misconceptions multiply fast but die
slowly.
The Mexican Indians and the
Incas of Peru were primarily vegetarians. They were of high moral character and hospitable
and generous as a habit. They practiced astrology, and mental telepathy was common among
them. It was perhaps their peace-loving disposition that, like the Hindus, allowed them to
be ruled by Europeans.
"The Devastation of the Indies is an eyewitness account of the
first modern genocide, a story of greed, hypocrisy, and cruelties so grotesque
as to rival the worst of our own century. Las Casas
writes of men, women and children burned alive “thirteen at a time in memory
of Our Redemeer and his twelve apostles.” He describes butcher
shops that sold human flesh for dog food (“Give me a quarter of that rascal
there,” one customer says, “until I can kill some more of my own”). Slave
ship captains navigate “without need of compass or charts,” following
instead the trail of floating corpses tossed overboard by the ship before them.
Native kings are promised peace, then slaughtered. Whole families hang
themselves in despair. Once fertile islands are tuned desert, the wealth of
nations plundered, millions killed outright, whole people annihilated.
The papacy empowered the two crowns
(Spanish and Portuguese) to conquer and even enslave pagans “inimical to the
name of Christ.”
The Spaniards killed more Indians here in twelve years by the
sword, by fire, and enslavement than anywhere in the Indies. ......."
You may like to read the full story at this site from whence I sourced
Surya, first off 50 million people killed by disease anywhere isn't genocide, it's an Epidemic. And the epidemic did not simply occur in 1492. There were several stages.
Surya, the information you provided is biased at best, at worst it's a badly composed concoction of hearsay and myth. I have about had it with the Hinducentric Bull.
Well, not much. But from what I've understood of Jesus, and know of Judaism, there is no Buddhist or Indian origin of Judaism. It would be odd for there to be Buddhist origins of Christianity and Judaism siince the Jews and Hebrews are practically right there, and India is hundreds of miles away.
Surya, first off 50 million people killed by disease anywhere isn't genocide, it's an Epidemic. And the epidemic did not simply occur in 1492. There were several stages.
Surya, the information you provided is biased at best, at worst it's a badly composed concoction of hearsay and myth. I have about had it with the Hinducentric Bull.
Consider this an unofficial warning.
I seem to remember an account of white settlers deliberately giving Indians infected blankets sometime during the 18th century to wipe them out. Sounds to me they sought to spread the epidemic to commit genocide so they could take over the natives' land without a fight
Surya, first off 50 million people killed by disease anywhere isn't genocide, it's an Epidemic. And the epidemic did not simply occur in 1492. There were several stages.
Surya, the information you provided is biased at best, at worst it's a badly composed concoction of hearsay and myth. I have about had it with the Hinducentric Bull.
Consider this an unofficial warning.
No more Native American tales shall you hear from my tongue.
But sir, I dont understand what attribute of my post has invited a warning.......
Well, not much. But from what I've understood of Jesus, and know of Judaism, there is no Buddhist or Indian origin of Judaism. It would be odd for there to be Buddhist origins of Christianity and Judaism siince the Jews and Hebrews are practically right there, and India is hundreds of miles away.
Well......The Jewish story of the flood is adapted from the Babylonian Epic of Gilamesh.
And the Epic of Gilamesh is almost an exact copy of the Vedic tale of Manu .
Both Manu and noah are warned by God
Flood lasts 40 days in both cases
Both built an arc and collected all species
Both arcs landed on a mountain....
Cultural contacts of the ancient world are much complex than we think
Again, if we consider the Pharaoh Akhenaten and his Solar monotheism, we find Vedic Suryas influence in it-----Through his Indo Aryan wife Nefertiti.
If , as some scholars claim, Jewish monotheism has connections with Aten worship, as Psalm 104 seems to imply.....we find a Vedic substratum for Judaism.
Well, not much. But from what I've understood of Jesus, and know of Judaism, there is no Buddhist or Indian origin of Judaism. It would be odd for there to be Buddhist origins of Christianity and Judaism siince the Jews and Hebrews are practically right there, and India is hundreds of miles away.
Well......The Jewish story of the flood is adapted from the Babylonian Epic of Gilamesh.
And the Epic of Gilamesh is almost an exact copy of the Vedic tale of Manu .
Both Manu and noah are warned by God
Flood lasts 40 days in both cases
Both built an arc and collected all species
Both arcs landed on a mountain....
Cultural contacts of the ancient world are much complex than we think
Again, if we consider the Pharaoh Akhenaten and his Solar monotheism, we find Vedic Suryas influence in it-----Through his Indo Aryan wife Nefertiti.
If , as some scholars claim, Jewish monotheism has connections with Aten worship, as Psalm 104 seems to imply.....we find a Vedic substratum for Judaism.
Of course, the influence is very little.
Here, an exciting paper...
"Akhenaten, Surya, and the Rigveda"
http://www.bahaistudies.net/asma/atenism9.pdf
Of course, if the flood actually happened, after all, The Jewish story of the flood wasn't "borrowed" from the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh. :/
Surya, first off 50 million people killed by disease anywhere isn't genocide, it's an Epidemic. And the epidemic did not simply occur in 1492. There were several stages.
Surya, the information you provided is biased at best, at worst it's a badly composed concoction of hearsay and myth. I have about had it with the Hinducentric Bull.
Consider this an unofficial warning.
No more Native American tales shall you hear from my tongue.
But sir, I dont understand what attribute of my post has invited a warning.......
Please help me be rid of it....
It's the sources that are the problem as they are heavily biased in favor of the Hindus. Try and find some more neutral works on the subject
Nick, if you google Pontiac's War smallpox and blankets, you'll find the true story. No, not settlers. And note that is was a single incident.
But, back to Goa... Does any have some verified historical accounts or numbers, versus something lifted from off the cuff polemics as evidence by the Amerindian posts? The Portuguese and Spaniards were meticulous record keepers.
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Beginning in 1560 the Portuguese began a policy of Christianising the people of Goa. Discriminatory laws were passed favoring Catholics, and Europeans who converted to Hinduism were expropriated. Hindu shrines and holy books were desecrated, Jews were expelled, and fanatical Jesuits withheld food from starving peasants unless they converted. Who can tell me more about this atrocity?
Have you examined the persecution of the Goa Catholics. Reference the connection and assumption by the church hierarchy reference their concerns of ongoing heretical practices and their concerns of apostasy as well as the suppression of the Konkani language (notably by the Franciscans)? Do you mention the Jesuits expulsion because of their support of the Konkani as a medium of effective communication in conversions. Has there been an attempt to understand the competition of the Portuguese and the Maratha.
Have you examined the case of the Syrian Christians in the Synod of Diamper reference similar claims of heresies?
Until these and much more also are examined the most that can be said about this thread is that it is merely providing a subjective vehicle for clandestine nationalism and counter bigotry imo.
I wont argue that persecution occurred...the evidence overwhelming provides me with that fact.....and in the modern context is indeed reprehensible. But sloppy and or selective analysis and obfuscation thru the failure to report as much evidence as possible to preserve objectivity.... is an anathema.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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