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“Was Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him) crucified??

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  Quote Abudhar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: “Was Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him) crucified??
    Posted: 23-May-2012 at 04:15

Wise Men do not live by sentiments alone, in order to live they have to act and in order to act they have to choose and in order to choose they have to judge , Not to be able to judge , not to have values at all is therefore not a possible attribute of Human existence.

In this Respected History forum, we are to raise a pertinent discussion topic entitled

 “Was Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him) crucified??” as such with the handsome variety of the highly educated elite in this high standard Forum, which I am sure can efficiently contribute to a very quiet, scientific and academic debate which purpose of this study is not to kindle any flame of rancour or anger between the two largest Monotheistic Religions of Islam & Christianity in a world already polluted with fury, hatred, segregation, prejudice, racial conflict, violence and fanaticism rather the aim is to search for a convincing  sublime truth.

 

It is obvious in the Christian faith, the cross is the core of this  faith and that the  Bible clearly indicates that the eternal destiny of man depends totally on the atoning death of Christ on the cross , thus in such tenets, this is what Christianity teaches and this is what Christians believe, in contrast to such beliefs, Islam rejects the whole concept of the cross, Muslims allege that it is against reason to claim that God, the Omnipotent, would not forgive man's sins without the cross, saying so is to limit God's power, while repentance, they say, is combined with God's mercy and forgiveness, it becomes sufficient to award the penitent all the pleasures of the paradise promised in the Holy Quran.

Furthermore the contrast between the two perspectives is similar to the contrast between East and West, a Christian who believes in Christ as the Son of God, and in His atoning death, finds the sure guarantee of eternal life in the cross and God has embodied His love, grace, mercy and justice on the cross. The source of this certainty is Christ's promises. Jesus said: ``whosoever believeth in me...has everlasting life.'' (John 3:16, NKJ), a Christian can rest well-assured that he has indeed been granted eternal life on the basis of Jesus' promises. Such phrases as ``if God wills'' or ``that depends on God's mercy'' cannot be part of that assurance.

 

Sooth to say that these phrases fail to provide any sense of security in the life of any believer, because he would lack the certainty he needs for a fruitful, solid faith and this does not mean that a person can indulge in sin believing that the death of Christ has secured for him the pardon of his transgressions in advance for this reason anyone who seeks everlasting life has to live a Christ-like life to meet the moral demands of the Christian faith and a person whose life does not attest to the new creation in him may still be under the condemnation of God's wrath.

According to Islam ,Salvation is based on a continuous effort to obtain God's favour, which would be bestowed in the form of blessings, joys, and the pleasures in the hereafter  or paradise, if he wills , therefore , this requires constant exertion in the hope of pleasing God, a Muslim can never be sure that he really has pleased God and secured his approval, Good deeds in Islam are an exigency for obtaining God's reward, while good works in Christianity are the fruit of love and faith, to Christians, good works are not a means of earning some present or future reward while everlasting life has already been guaranteed by the merit of the redemptive act of Christ on the cross.   

In the Islamic faith the issue of the crucifixion and death of Prophet Jesus or Issa is important to Muslims as they believe that Jesus will return before the end of time, Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified but was raised bodily to Heaven by Almighty God, depending on the interpretation of the following verse, Muslim scholars have abstracted different opinions. Some believe that in the Biblical account, Jesus’ crucifixion did not last long enough for him to die, while others opine that God gave someone Jesus' appearance, causing everyone to believe that Jesus was crucified, while a third explanation could be that Jesus was nailed to a cross, but as his body is immortal he did not "die" or was not "crucified".

In opposition to the second and third foregoing proposals, yet others maintain that God does not use deceit and therefore they contend that crucifixion just did not occur and the basis of all of these beliefs is the following verse in the Holy Quran:

“That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ” Jesus the son of Mary the Messenger of Allah, but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise «Holy Qur'an,Chapter- Sura 4 An Nissa(Chapter the Women) verses 157-158.

*to be followed

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2012 at 19:31
Personally, i think he was crucified but somehow managed to survive (perhaps fainting and waking up in the tomb). Alternatively, it is possible someone else was executed in his place while the real Jesus went into hiding
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2012 at 02:51
The info we have says he was.

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2012 at 04:32
Looks like OBL case Nick!?!Resurrection&execution&...?
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  Quote Toltec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2012 at 05:35
The problem is one book of myths, magic and the supernatural, the bible, says one thing and another book of myths, magic and the supernatural, the koran, says the opposite. History says there's no substantiated historical evidence he existed.
 
Which source of the three sounds more credible?
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2012 at 10:51
Originally posted by Toltec

The problem is one book of myths, magic and the supernatural, the bible, says one thing and another book of myths, magic and the supernatural, the koran, says the opposite. History says there's no substantiated historical evidence he existed.
 
Which source of the three sounds more credible?
 
History has proven time and again that it can be totally wrong. We can't even figure out the true motives for Alexander's conquest of one of the largest empires of the ancient world nor could we get a proper understanding of his personality so why repose solely on history as the conveyor of truth?
 
Secondly, if you choose to believe in either the Bible or the Quran it is a choice based upon spiritual belief and the intent is not for historical research.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2012 at 19:11
Jesus is also mentioned in Roman sources, most notably Josephus
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2012 at 03:53
Jesus seems to be an unreal mythical figure in all aspects, from his birth to his death, most of things which are said about him could be attributed to other real or mythical figures before him, the man was strangely born, never married and not even died!
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  Quote Abudhar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2012 at 09:24
*Thanks a lot for all the different views, opinions and other fath beliefs , in continuation of this Relevant topic , I am but enthusiastic to add the following data regarding the above topic:
 

* The Encyclopaedia  of Islam writes:

The denial, furthermore, is in perfect agreement with the logic of the Holy Qur’an. The Biblical stories reproduced in it (e.g.,Job-Moses-Joseph  etc...) and the episodes relating to the history of the beginning of Islam demonstrate that it is "God's practice" or "sunnat Allah", to make faith triumph finally over the forces of evil and adversity. "So truly with hardship comes ease", (XCIV, 5, 6). For Jesus to die on the cross would have meant the triumph of his executioners; but the Quran asserts that they undoubtedly failed: "Assuredly God will defend those who believe"; (XXII, 49). He confounds the plots of the enemies of Christ (III, 54).

*So while most Western Scholars , Jews, and Christians believe Jesus died, most Muslims believe he was raised to Heaven without being put on the cross and God transformed another person to appear exactly like Jesus who was crucified instead of Jesus. Jesus ascended bodily to Heaven, there to remain until his second coming in the end of days as prescribed in Islam.

The identity of the substitute has been a source of great interest among Muslims according to the many traditions and sayings it is to believe that one proposal is that God used one of Jesus' enemies, Judas Iscariot, Jesus' traitor, is most often cited, including by the medieval "Gospel of Barnabas", while the  second proposal is that God asked for someone to volunteer to be crucified instead of Jesus, Simon of Cyrene is the person most commonly accepted to have done it, perhaps because according to the "Synoptic Gospels", he was compelled by the Romans to carry Jesus' cross for him (there is no indication in the Gospels that he volunteered).

 *Al Baidawi writes that Jesus told hisDisciples in advance that whoever volunteered would go to Heaven, the  following Narration recorded in the Qur'anic Exegis of Ibn Kathir is graded as authentic by the majority of Muslims and provides a plausible explanation for the Qur'anic verse related to the substitution of Jesus:

*Ibn Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).

* One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, theJacobites, said, 'Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians, said, 'The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to Heaven.' Another group, the Muslims, said, 'The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad."

*Al Nasai , Al Kubra6:489.

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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2012 at 01:51
Jesus, The Word of God, came down from Heaven and lived a sinless life, died on the Cross, and came back from the dead three days later. Hundreds of witnesses attest to his Ressurection before he returned to Heaven. Keep in mind that Jesus was executed for blasphemy, saying he is God. He can't be a Prophet of God if he lied. I'm just curious what the Muslim consensus is for Jesus'es claim that he is God, even if he wasn't crucified.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2012 at 14:16
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2012 at 17:46
Originally posted by KongMing

Jesus, The Word of God, came down from Heaven and lived a sinless life, died on the Cross, and came back from the dead three days later. Hundreds of witnesses attest to his Ressurection before he returned to Heaven. Keep in mind that Jesus was executed for blasphemy, saying he is God. He can't be a Prophet of God if he lied. I'm just curious what the Muslim consensus is for Jesus'es claim that he is God, even if he wasn't crucified.


Well my friend, we simply don't believe that Jesus made such a claim, with all due respect. I do not even recall finding such a claim in the Bible except for in the beginning of John 1. Could you please show me a direct quote where Jesus claims to be God? Cheers.
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  Quote Alyazia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2012 at 04:06
If yoh believe in Islam, then he didn't die. If you believe in Christianity he died. Lol I'm acting really smart when I really don't even make sense, like my posts :D
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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2012 at 00:47
Hebrews 1 says that God said Jesus is God. :/
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2012 at 11:50
Originally posted by KongMing

Hebrews 1 says that God said Jesus is God. :/


I do not believe in the bible as the word of God but either way, I asked you for a 'direct quote' of Jesus making such a claim. I already know that the bible supports this claim since I mentioned the passage in John 1. I am only interested in direct quotes if you can provide them. regards
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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2012 at 13:21
John 17: 1-5 seems pretty good.
 
Mark 14: 62


Edited by KongMing - 23-Jul-2012 at 13:22
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2012 at 13:27
Originally posted by Baal Melqart

Originally posted by KongMing

Hebrews 1 says that God said Jesus is God. :/


I do not believe in the bible as the word of God but either way, I asked you for a 'direct quote' of Jesus making such a claim. I already know that the bible supports this claim since I mentioned the passage in John 1. I am only interested in direct quotes if you can provide them. regards
 
 
slow at the pens we taking a break...so I stick my nose in.
 

Conclusion

It is not necessary that Jesus say a certain phrase in order for the truth of who he is to be made clear. The issue is not if he speaks a certain sentence that we construct in present terms in order to satisfy our theological demands. The issue is what did Jesus say in the context and culture of the time in which he spoke.

 
 
See:  John 8:58
John 9: 35-38.
 
John 10: 30-33.
 
 
Wink
 
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2012 at 13:32
Ah yes, Vigillis makes sense when you realize the "Son of Man" is what Jesus constantly spoke of himself as.
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2012 at 14:14
Agreed CV, the cultural context is very important to discern what is meant. This is exactly why I don't believe that ''Son of God'' has a literal meaning but that which the Jews understood in their culture... literally ''Ger Tzedeq'' (Righteous Man).

I think even the bible seems to prove this beyond refute

''because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God''
Romans 8:14

A righteous man such as Jesus Christ who is led by the holy spirit would be called a Son of God just like Moses was before him and Abraham...

''When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son of God!"''

Matthew 27:54


Thus Jesus claiming to be the Son of God must be understood within the cultural context of the time.
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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2012 at 14:19

That's not irrefutable proof. :/

For one instance, Mathew 27: 54 is speaking about the death  and Ressurection of Jesus .
 
 
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