Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Ollios
Chieftain
Joined: 22-Feb-2011
Location: Diyar-ı Rum
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1130
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Eagle-Head Posted: 07-Mar-2012 at 01:57 |
Crete, 2nd c. AD Is this eagle-head guy Zeus? If yes, do you know any similar example(any greek god) what is your guess? I don't know any greek statue like that.
|
Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
|
|
Don Quixote
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Mar-2012 at 03:04 |
I had never seen such an iconography before, but the statue of Zeus in the temple in Olympia was supposed to have head an eagle's head on the staff he is holding "...Within this temple the statue of the supreme god sat upon an intricately
carved cedarwood throne that was decorated with mythical scenes of
lesser gods and heroes rendered in gold, ebony, and precious stones. In
his left hand Zeus carried a scepter made of a multicolored alloy of
rare metals; crowned with an eagle's head, it symbolized his rule over
the earth...." http://amazeingart.com/seven-wonders/statue-zeus.htmlSo, I'd suppose that the eagle-headed guy is Zeus, but I have to research on that. It definitely drew my interest, so I'll see what I can dig up from the net.
|
|
TheAlaniDragonRising
AE Moderator
Spam Fighter
Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6084
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Mar-2012 at 04:11 |
Originally posted by Ollios
Crete, 2nd c. AD
Is this eagle-head guy Zeus? If yes, do you know any similar example(any greek god)
what is your guess? I don't know any greek statue like that.
|
With what I've read, and this might not be right, it is supposed to be depicting an Egyptian scene, even though it might not automatically look like it. It has been suggested that the seated figure is vulture headed, which could make it Nekhbet, though I'm a little sceptical as the figure doesn't look female and the head doesn't look much vulture like. In my opinion if hawk or eagle headed it could be Ra, but then again this is only if it is meant to be an Egyptian scene. If Greek then it would probably have to be Zeus as the eagle was his symbol, although I've not seen depictions of Zeus as half and half, only one or the other. I guess this could be an exception.
|
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
|
|
Cyrus Shahmiri
Administrator
King of Kings
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Mar-2012 at 05:28 |
That seems to be an Urupa that I talked about it in this thread: Northeast European Tribe, Scythian
|
|
|
TheAlaniDragonRising
AE Moderator
Spam Fighter
Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6084
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Mar-2012 at 13:30 |
Thanks for the info Cyrus, something to add to my knowledge. I had thought of Nimrod as another possibility until I saw the suggestion of Egyptian.
|
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
|
|
Don Quixote
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Mar-2012 at 14:07 |
It doesn't have wings though. This is a description of the Greek Grupa, that you mention in the above cited thread: "... Aelian, On Animals 4. 27 (trans. Scholfield) (Greek natural history C2nd A.D.) :
"I have heard that the Indian animal the Grupa (Gryphon) is a
quadraped like a lion; that it has claws of enormous strength and that
they resemble those of a lion. Men commonly report that it is winged and
that the feathers along its back are black, and those on its front are
red, while the actual wings are neither but are white. And Ktesias
(Ctesias) records that its neck is variegated with feathers of a dark
blue; that it has a beak like an eagle's, and a head too, just as
artists portray it in pictures and sculpture. Its eyes, he says, are
like fire. It builds its lair among the mountains, and although it is
not possible to capture the full-grown animal, they do take the young
ones. And the people of Baktria, who are neighbours of the Indians, say
that the Grypes (Gryphons) guard the gold in those parts; that they dig
it up and build their nests with it, and that the Indians carry off any
that falls from them. The Indians however deny that they guard the
aforesaid gold, for the Grypes have no need for it (and if that is what
they say, then I at any rate think that they speak the truth), but that
they themselves come to collect the gold, while the Grypes fearing for
their young ones fight with the invaders. They engage too with other
beasts and overcome them without difficulty, but they will not face the
lion or the elephant. Accordingly the natives, dreading the strength of
these animals, do not set out in quest of the gold by day, but arrive by
night, for at that season they are less likely to be detected. Now the
region where the Grypes live and where the gold is mined is a dreary
wilderness. And the seekers after the aforesaid substance arrive, a
thousand or two strong, armed and bringing spades and sacks; and
watching for a moonless night they begin to dig. Now if they contrive to
elude the Grypes they reap a double advantage, for they not only escape
with their lives but they also take home their freight, and when those
who have acquired a special skill in the smelting of gold have refined
it, they possess immense wealth to requite them for the dangers
described above. And they return home, I am told, after an interval of
three or four years."..." http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/Grypes.htmlThis statue is nothing like the Grupa - no wings, the body is human. I'd think about some influence by Egyptian iconography, the Greeks thought that many of their gods were born in Egypt, and Amun-Ra was Zeus. But Amun wasn't potrayed with eagle head, Horus was. I have no idea what the Greeks thought Horus was, I have to check that.
|
|
medenaywe
AE Moderator
Master of Meanings
Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Mar-2012 at 14:27 |
I believe it was Hawk on Sky!Pharaoh has snake(it's eyes shine in dark/underground sun?!) as supporter in underworld and after he defeat enemies below he flies on star sky as hawk!Yes it looks as Horus.
|
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Mar-2012 at 19:09 |
It also got me thinking of Horus. Ollios, where did this statue come from?
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|
okamido
Consul
suspended, tit for tat
Joined: 15-Apr-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 302
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Mar-2012 at 22:33 |
Padiuiset presenting incense to Rê-Horakhty-Atoum.
|
|
okamido
Consul
suspended, tit for tat
Joined: 15-Apr-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 302
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Mar-2012 at 22:39 |
If I were to go on record for my actual thoughts on it, I would go with Ganymede as the wine-bearer for Zues. To me, the phrygian cap gives it away.
|
|
Don Quixote
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Mar-2012 at 02:05 |
You mean Ganymede carrying wine to Zeus who is presented with an eagle head because he abducted him in his shifted in an eagle form?The iconography of the Horus fresco you posted is the same as the one on the statue, staff and all. Considering that this is Crete, and the Greek and Egyptian tradition met there in a very literal way, it's completely possible that in the religious identification of the time Zeus was seen as Horus and Ganymede as Padiuiset - the Greeks tried to make sense out of everyone else's religion by identifying it with their own.
Edited by Don Quixote - 08-Mar-2012 at 02:15
|
|
TheAlaniDragonRising
AE Moderator
Spam Fighter
Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6084
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Mar-2012 at 02:09 |
Originally posted by okamido
If I were to go on record for my actual thoughts on it, I would go with Ganymede as the wine-bearer for Zues. To me, the phrygian cap gives it away. |
Looking at a slightly better picture of the scene I would have to agree with you, okamido. Not so much on the evidence of the phrygian cap, which is not altogether irrelevant, but because of the sheep next to him, considering he had been tending his sheep when taken by Zeus. My guess is that the figure right behind Ganymede is his own father, and is turned away from his son indicating his loss. It's just such a shame that the scene is incomplete to show this in full.
|
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
|
|
Ollios
Chieftain
Joined: 22-Feb-2011
Location: Diyar-ı Rum
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1130
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Mar-2012 at 02:11 |
Nice brand storming. I really enjoy to write each post
The figure is more look like Uruba than Grypes for me . In the same way there is no similar grypes figure in greek art. All of them just animal instead of Uruba Urartu art, 99%similar Horus is another choice. Horus and Zeus always figured with staff, and in the roman period, egypt was under the huge greek colonization. I still think that it is Zeus which was created Horus style.
Originally posted by Nick1986
It also got me thinking of Horus. Ollios, where did this statue come from?
|
It is my picture from Istanbul Archaelogy Museum here is the label of the statue One of the most worst thing in the museum, there is no much information for ordinary statues.
Edited by Ollios - 08-Mar-2012 at 02:12
|
Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
|
|
Don Quixote
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Mar-2012 at 02:40 |
"...In the rest of Egypt, however, the popularity of the cult of Amun was rapidly overtaken by the rise of the new cult of Isis and Osiris. Outside Thebes, Amun's identity first became subsumed into Ra ( Ra-Herakhty), who initially remained an identifiable figure in the Isis and Osiris cult, but ultimately, Amun became an aspect of Horus...." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmunSo, ultimately Amun became an aspect of Horus, /since the myths and religions develop/, and since Amun was identified with Zeus by Herodotus, by the 2-3 century AD Horus would be identified with Horus. Hence, I'd go with the supposition that on the Crete statue the eagle headed guy is Zeus-Horus, presented with the regalia of Horus, and identified with him; with the priest Padiuiset identified with Ganymede. I'd think that whoever did the statue most probably dished the homoerotic aspect of the story of Ganymede, /at least there are no hits about that in it/ so the same image would speak to the Greeks about Ganymede bringing wine to Zeus; and to an Egyptian about Padiuiset making an offering to Horus.
|
|
Sidney
Colonel
Joined: 31-Jan-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 690
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Mar-2012 at 20:06 |
To me the phrygian cap suggests a link with Mithraism. Mithras always wore one. His was a very secretive religion, with not a great deal known about it, although it was widely practised throughout the Roman Empire.
It included certain levels of initiation, the first one being the 'Crow'.
The man in the pictures above is holding a vessel very similar to the one in your picture, Ollias.
The man with the Phrygian cap could be Mithras, or someone representing the initiatory rank of the 'Persian/Perseus'. The damaged figure could have a lion-head (judging by the possible remnants of hair), or maybe represented the sun - both the 'Lion/Leo' and the 'Sun/Helios' being other intiatory ranks.
Edited by Sidney - 08-Mar-2012 at 20:19
|
|
Ollios
Chieftain
Joined: 22-Feb-2011
Location: Diyar-ı Rum
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1130
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Mar-2012 at 09:27 |
Originally posted by Sidney
To me the phrygian cap suggests a link with Mithraism. Mithras always wore one. His was a very secretive religion, with not a great deal known about it, although it was widely practised throughout the Roman Empire.
It included certain levels of initiation, the first one being the 'Crow'.
The man in the pictures above is holding a vessel very similar to the one in your picture, Ollias.
The man with the Phrygian cap could be Mithras, or someone representing the initiatory rank of the 'Persian/Perseus'. The damaged figure could have a lion-head (judging by the possible remnants of hair), or maybe represented the sun - both the 'Lion/Leo' and the 'Sun/Helios' being other intiatory ranks. |
Thanks to remind Mithra. Mithraism is one of the strong cult in Roman Empire. Actually, I was thinking, how bad god is it? It is not looking like an eagle (According to roman sculpture level). If it was a crow, it must symbolise Mercury/Hermes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteriesStaff with snake is a symbol of Mercury so do you think that there is a snake in the statue ? (there is a second thing near the staff which is held by eagle guy) ? If your answer is yes, I think we find our eagle-head( sorry crow head ). He is Mercury yy
|
Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
|
|
TheAlaniDragonRising
AE Moderator
Spam Fighter
Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6084
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Mar-2012 at 12:06 |
I don't know if this adds to it, but if indeed we're talking about a snake/serpent being in the "eagle headed" figure's grasp, then we could be talking about this being symbolic of something to do with conflict in some way, as the eagle and snake tends to be symbolic of conflict. I also notice that what is left of the figure behind that of the one seeing carrying the pot has his hand and fingers pointing downwards, a sign of death, or something being dead. Does any one know if this has anything to do with Christianity in anyway? I'm only asking because of the rose between the figures, being known as being of symbolic of Mary.
|
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
|
|
Sidney
Colonel
Joined: 31-Jan-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 690
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Mar-2012 at 12:39 |
Thanks for posting the larger pictures Ollias. It looks more like a lion-headed figure on the right to me now, and something like a bull or a sheep is standing in the background of the man with the pot. Also the bird-headed figure is holding what looks like a peacock-head in his hand, and that he may have another figure stood next to him (of which you can see some drapery). The peacock is a symbol of Persia, where Mithraism came from. I would definately look in that direction, rather than Egyptian or Christian religion (although there is some overlap between all three).
However, thanks to the enlargement, it also looks like the left arm of the man with the hat, and the body of the vessel, has been restored, and the right arm, upper body and whole head of the bird-man figure looks suspiciously new, as if it has been restored/recut. Is this so, and if so, how accurate is the later reconstruction?
Edited by Sidney - 09-Mar-2012 at 12:40
|
|
Nick1986
Emperor
Mighty Slayer of Trolls
Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Mar-2012 at 19:53 |
What's he holding in his hand?
|
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
|
|
Sidney
Colonel
Joined: 31-Jan-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 690
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Mar-2012 at 20:19 |
Which he?
|
|