If Japan really did conquer China...

  back in WW2 or whatever.....would Japan have been sinicised? or would Japanese culture prevail...?

I'm not so sure...

But if Hideyoshi had succeded we would have had a Japanese dynasty in Chinese history today.

Technologically wise..yes, but culturally? Everything in East Asia and some parts of south east asia owe their very creation and foundation to the Chinese motherland.

You do know that for thousands of years, Japan was a 'little brother' to China and paid annual homage to the Chinese emperors either it be Liaong, Song, Tang, Tan, Qin, Han, Yuan, Ming, Qing etc..

In the dynastical period of China, my friend, the Chinese coined themselves as the 'middle kingdom' and in essence the center of the world and they were so since so many kingdoms paid vassal homage to her, such as the japanese shogunates, shilla, pekjae, koryo, mongolia, russian ambassadors, dai viet kingdoms, champa, khmer empire, burmese kingdoms, nepalese princedoms, Indian Empires such as the Chandra Gupta Mauraya Empire, Sri Vijayan Empire, Majapahit Empire, Philippine Sulu Kingdom and even the paramount power of South East Asia the Ayuthayan Empire of Thailand graced the Chinese Emperor with respect.

Have you ever heard of the gong si dichotomy? the confucian ideology? This was all understood to be chinese philosophies and adopted in korean as well as japanese societies; Japan was nothing more than a 'little brother' of China for over 2000 years. Always..

Originally posted by King Chulalongkorn and even the paramount power of South East Asia the Ayuthayan Empire of Thailand graced the Chinese Emperor with respect.

     all the others were China's vassal, whereas the all mighty all conquering Thailand "graced" the Chinese emperor with respect...

Red Guard pretty much summed up my long explanation..lol!!!

Funny, if they did make it. We now have more provinces, like japan province, korea province,philipine province, maybe even U.S province.

Even if Japan did conquer China, if would have had to give up all of it in the end, because it would have eventually lost against United States.  The time in between would have been too short for anything to have happened.

Given that US hadn't intervened, then that's a different story.

Do you even know Thai history?? Or are you conjuring all of this in your head? First of all you need to read some articles and enlighten yourself in the arts and the influences Great Ayuthaya had on the world and especially Asia.



The  kingdom of Ayutthaya, (Siam) was the greatest of the Thai Empires on the Chao Phraya River. It ruled for four hundred years and by the time of its destruction by an envious and jealous invading army from Burma by King Alaungpaya's son Hsinbyushin in 1767, had become one of the most cosmopolitan cities in Asia, with a population of more than a million people and thousands of imposing temples and palaces.

In 1351 a Thai prince named U Thong ('Golden Cradle') founded the city of Ayutthaya on a strategic site at the confluence of the Pasak and the Chao Phraya Rivers and was anointed king of a new Thai state, taking the regal name of Ramathibodi. Under a succession of able and for the most part warlike rulers, Ayutthaya rose rapidly to become the most powerful state in central Thailand. Sukhothai was reduced to vassalage in 1378 and finally annexed in 1438, while Angkor was conquered in 143I - 32, and the Khmers forced to abandon it as their capital soon after.

By the end of the I7th century it had become so rich and powerful that it was considered by European writers to be, with China and the Indian state of Vijayanagar, one of the three greatest kingdoms in Asia and was often described as the 'Venice of the East'. The government of the kingdom was to a great extent modeled on that of Khmer Angkor, and in the early years of Ayutthaya's rise to ascendancy many of the court officials were drawn from the Khmerised aristocracy of Lop Buri and other former outposts of the Angkor empire. It was they who introduced at the court of Ayutthaya the special vocabulary based on Khmer and Sanskrit which is still in use today.

For 417 years the kingdom of Ayutthaya was the dominant power in the fertile Menam or Chao Phraya Basin. Its capital was Ayutthaya, an island-city situated at the confluence of three rivers, the Chao Phraya, the Pasak, and the Lopburi, which grew into one of Asia's most renowned metropolises, inviting comparison with great European cities such as Paris. The city must indeed have looked majestic, filled as it was with hundreds of monasteries and criss-crossed with several canals and waterways which served as roads.

   An ancient community had existed in the Ayutthaya area well before 1350, the year of its official "founding" by King Ramathibodi I (Uthong). The huge Buddha image at Wat Phananchoeng, just outside the island-city, was cast over twenty years before King Ramathibodi I moved his residence to the city area in 1350. It is easy to see why the Ayutthaya area was settled prior to this date since the site offered a variety of geographical and economic advantages. Not only is Ayutthaya at the confluence of three rivers, plus some canals, but its proximity to the sea also gave its inhabitants an irresistible stimulus to engage in maritime trade. The rice fields in the immediate environs flooded each year during the rainy season, rendering the city virtually impregnable for several months annually. These fields, of course, had an even more vital function, that of feeding a relatively large population in the Ayutthaya region. Rice grown in these plants yielded a surplus large enough to be exported regularly to various countries in Asia.

The Ayutthaya period was early Thai history's great era of international trade. Ayutthaya's role as a port made it one of Southeast Asia's richest emporia. The port of Ayutthaya was an entrepot, an international market place where goods from the Far East could be bought or bartered in exchange for merchandise from the Malay/Indonesian Archipelago, India, or Persia, not to mention local wares or produce from Ayutthaya's vast hinterland. The trading world of the Indian Ocean was accessible to Ayutthaya through its possession, for much of its 417-year history, of the seaport of Mergui on the Bay of Bengal. This port in Tenasserim province was linked to the capital by a wild but ancient and frequently used overland trade route.

   Throughout its long history, Ayutthaya had a thriving commerce in "forest produce", principally sapanwood (a wood which produces reddish dye), eaglewood (an aromatic wood), benzoin (a type of incense), gumlac (used as wax), and deer hides (much in  demand in Japan). Elephant teeth and rhinoceros horns were also highly valued exports, but the former was a strict royal monopoly and the latter relatively rare, especially compared with deer hides. Ayutthaya also sold provisions such as rice and dried fish to other Southeast Asian states. The range of minerals found in the kingdom was limit ed, but tin from Phuket ("Junkceylon") and Nakhon Si Thammarat ("Ligor") was much sought after by both Asian and European traders.

   The Chinese, with their large and versatile junks, were the traders who had the most regular and sustained contact with Ayutthaya. The Ayutthaya kings, in order to conduct a steady and profitable trade with Ming and Manchu China, from the 14th to t he 18th centuries, entered willingly into a  relationship with the Chinese emperors. Muslim merchants came from India and further West to sell their highly-prized clothes both to Thais and to other foreign traders. So dominant were Chinese and Muslim merchants in Ayutthaya that an old Thai law dating back to the 15th century divides the Thai king's foreign trade department into two: a Chinese section and a Muslim section. Chinese, Indians, and later on Japanese and Persians all settled in Ayutthaya, the Thai kings welcoming their presence and granting them complete freedom of worship. Several of these foreigners became important court officials.

   Containing merchandise from all corners of Asia, the thriving markets of Ayutthaya attracted traders from Europe. In 1511 a small Portuguese force led by Afonso de Albuquerque captured Malacca, an important Muslim trading state on the west coast of the Malay peninsula, and from there sent envoys to Ayutthaya. In 1518 the Portuguese became the first European power to conclude a commercial treaty with Ayutthaya and to establish a permanent settlement there. The Portuguese, receiving permission to settle in Ayutthaya and other Thai ports in return for supplying guns and ammunition to the Thai king. Portugal's powerful neighbor Spain was the next European nation to arrive in Ayutthaya, towards the end of the 16th century.

During the I7th century the Dutch, British and French all established trading relations with Ayutthaya. The Dutch (V.O.C) and the British. The Dutch East India Company played a vital role in Ayutthaya's foreign trade from 1605 until 1765, succeeding in obtaining from the Thai kings a deer hide export monopoly as well as one of all the tin sold at Nakhon Si Thammarat. The Dutch sold Thai sapanwood and deer hides for good profits in Japan during Japan's exclusion period, after 1635. In 1678 a Greek adventurer named Constantine Phaulkon arrived in Ayutthaya in the service of the English East India Company and rapidly rose to become first minister of King Narai, whose pro-French inclinations he did much to encourage. . French missionaries and merchants came to the capital, and during the 1680's splendid embassies were exchanged between King Narai and King Louis XIV.

The French tried to convert King Narai to Christianity and also attempted to gain a foothold in the Thai kingdom when, in 1687, they sent troops to garrison Bangkok and Mergui. The death of King Narai in 1688 was followed by  a succession conflict which broke out in 1688 an anti-French official seized power, drove out the French garrisons, and executed King Narai's Greek favorite Constantine Phaulkon, who had bee championing the French cause in a vain attempt to convert Narai to Catholicism. This caused the expulsion of the Jesuit missionaries. After 1688, Ayutthaya had less cont act with Western nations, but there was no policy of national exclusion. Indeed, there was increased trading contact with China after 1683,and there was continued trade with the Dutch, the Indians, and various neighboring countries.

Edited by King Chulalongkorn

"Do you even know Thai history?? Or are you conjuring all of this in your head? First of all you need to read some articles and enlighten yourself in the arts and the influences Great Ayuthaya had on the world and especially Asia. "

 

Yes, much more than you on political matters. Stop gibbering about art, we are discussing pure political strength. And the third Burmese Empire was more powerful.

"The  kingdom of Ayutthaya, (Siam) was the greatest of the Thai Empires on the Chao Phraya River. It ruled for four hundred years and by the time of its destruction by an envious and jealous invading army from Burma by King Alaungpaya's son Hsinbyushin in 1767, had become one of the most cosmopolitan cities in Asia, with a population of more than a million people and thousands of imposing temples and palaces. "

 

You can copy and paste all you want, you still can't change the fact that Burma took Ayutthaya in 1767 and force Thailand to accept Burmese suzerainty.

 

"By the end of the I7th century it had become so rich and powerful that it was considered by European writers to be, with China and the Indian state of Vijayanagar, one of the three greatest kingdoms in Asia and was often described as the 'Venice of the East'. "

Right, just like how the Japanese considered themselves one of the three greatest kingdoms on earth including China and India.

 

"Wrong, the Chinese attack of Burma had nothing to do with the Burmese retreat of the nation."

Wrong, the Chinese invasion of Burma has everything to do with a large withdrawal of the Burmese force from Thailand that largely enabled Thailand to repel the Burmese. You obviously have not studied Burmese history. Most of the 18th century was that of Burmese expansion at the expense of Thailand.

 

"By then, the Ayuthaya was sieged and the empire was forced to regroup. It is this very struggle of war in which Thailand was pitted against over 1,500,000 Burmese troops and 6000 elephants that made our turning point. Thailand, blessed with General Taksin,  in 1770 General Phraya Tak or Taksin, governor of Tak and commander of the Thai forces, who was the son of a Chinese father and a Thai mother, revolted against the Burmese.The Siamese troops rallied behind him pushing the invading army back to its borders and forcing the Burmese to sue for peace. Taksin was proclaimed King. Battles such as these produced great leaders and hero's such as Phraya Pichia Hap Dak. "

 

Sorry, but Burmese records mention nothing about Thailand forcing Burma to do anything. And the 1.5 million is hardly believable. The four Qing invasions under Men Zui at that time was close to the capital Ava directly threatened Burmese existence, and Burma had to withdraw the major part of its force against Thailand to counter the Qing meance. King Hsinhpyushin's entire war effort was against the Qing's three invasions capturing the the Shan. This considerably weakened Burmese troops on the Thai front. Of course Burmese power waxed and waned in cycles according to their administrative efficiency in the control of manpower. But whenever Burma was in an expansionist phase, it always outpowered Thailand. Just as it captured the Thai capital twice in the 16th and 18th century.

 

I wonder what the fate of teh Manchus would have been if Japan did conquer and rule Manchuria to this day.
Would they have been as derasinated as they are today under Chinese rule?