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Was the cult of Great Mother exchanged with Jesus?

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was the cult of Great Mother exchanged with Jesus?
    Posted: 28-Jan-2012 at 10:07
When do I have not logical response other people's opinion is not insulted!You can not post here number of
Israelites as you have had statistic data from those days.As for Statue,Cryptic and CV,it is still your home!
Whom did ancient Arab&Jew pray is more than obvious!
All other's arguments above pro&con are here cause of solid research and believe me You are wrong!SmileBut that do not mean you are "atheists" and "socialists"!Science needs people with open minds more than those that always have agreed with official opinion of Queen's swarm!Lamp.


Edited by medenaywe - 28-Jan-2012 at 10:12
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 04:34
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 06:41
Statues of Great Mother were never part of ritual for true believers,even if some cults had derived from original and had created statues(that have insulted original!) as it looks today.Therefore there is "confusion" about:Whom did they pray to those days?In fact believers had not better object than Mother's himself.Rituals of pray have been preserved&practiced till the day i am posting this.
  Those words are known by all of us:
http://niv.scripturetext.com/exodus/20.htm
where did they come from?
You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.





Edited by medenaywe - 16-Feb-2012 at 11:13
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 18:48
Originally posted by medenaywe

"Small tribe"?They were part of Ancient Egyptian civilization Cyrus!Rome had created image of small tribe as it looks now but language they have used from the beginning reveals me that "Arabs"&"Jews"&"Slavs" have belonged all inside Egyptian civilization.They have shared same syllabic language with same meaning of syllables and rules.Is this not enough?!?My statement does not deny other people existence there at all!Even some Persian words meaning could be translated using those rules&syllables!Turks also!I suppose that Mother Earth religion was most accepted among them those days.Religions that have followed it show us it with their similarities.


The Jews separated in like 4000 BC from the Akkadians /at which point the Hebrew was found to have been separated from Akkadian/,
http://www.ceremade.dauphine.fr/~ryder/NichollsRyderIWSM2011.pdf

in the way on which people separate and new tribes are started - an extended family left the Ur of the Chaldeans and stared roaming left and right, got into Egypt, became a border-defending tribe, later left Egypt and as a nomadic group wandered along for 40 yeas trying to strike a claim. Now, only a small nomadic group can do that, you don't have a whole empire of people on their feet beating the dust. How old they were is besides the point.

A nomadic groups on their feet cannot take chances, they have to have a very strong social bonds to survive, such strong bonds are stipulated with very staunch patriarchal order, such order makes for a severe partiarchal religion - this is my reasoning. I wouldn't put my faint in religious literature when we talk numbers - the Old Testament may be a guide in historical sense in general only, numbers are something very suspicious, being used for all kinds of propaganda; becides I doubt there had good statistics methods in a nomadic society we are talking about.


Edited by Don Quixote - 29-Jan-2012 at 18:59
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 18:56
Originally posted by medenaywe

As it turns out, the Virgin Mary is, like Jesus Christ, a mythical character, founded upon older goddesses. Following on the heels of goddesses such as Aphrodite, Astarte, Cybele, Demeter, Hathor, Inanna, Ishtar and Isis, Mary is "both virgin and mother, and, like many of them, she gives birth to a half-human, half-divine child, who dies and is reborn."
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mary.html

Jesus may well has been a historical character, people like him roaming around and calling themselves messiahs were not anything new; in which case after is death he was deified along the lines of the dying-and-resurrected-god - Dumuzi/Osiris/Dyonusos/etc, and his mother deified along the lines of the Great mother Goddess and her aspects - the female deities you are naming here.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 19:06
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by medenaywe

As it turns out, the Virgin Mary is, like Jesus Christ, a mythical character, founded upon older goddesses. Following on the heels of goddesses such as Aphrodite, Astarte, Cybele, Demeter, Hathor, Inanna, Ishtar and Isis, Mary is "both virgin and mother, and, like many of them, she gives birth to a half-human, half-divine child, who dies and is reborn."
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mary.html
 
Nonsense...3.4 billion Abrahamic faith followers reject this utterly. In fact this is the typical response of the atheists or revisionist attempting links with earlier paganistic or other ethnic-socio mythologies-theologies.
 
Scriptures (best available source) provide us with her existence in the genealogies Id there or in the apocryphal James..take your pick. She can legitimately claim an affiliation with both the House of Levi and David.

The numbers of people who believe in  a myth doesn't make this myth a reality; if only testifies that many people need to hold on to something that makes they feel good; this is nor here, not there, and not a historical proof of anything, no more that the fact that  some 40 millions Hinduist in India, Nepal and Balngladesh, plus many others believe that the god Ganesha had elephant head doesn't make the said Ganesha real and with elephant head.

All those genealogies are most probably fakes to make the Old Testament prophecies to stick to the deified human person Jesus. If Jesus was a real person, of course he had a mother, but she wasn't a virgin, nor inseminated from god by his word; she was just a normal woman, just like Jesus, if he existed, was a normal person, a moral teacher with good ideas, and he wasn't the only one who believed he was a messiah. The deifying came later.
Btw, I'm an agnosticSmile.


Edited by Don Quixote - 29-Jan-2012 at 19:13
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 19:36
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Don Quixote


"...For I am the first and the last.
I am the honored one and the scorned one.
I am the whore and the holy one.
I am the wife and the virgin.
I am <the mother> and the daughter.
Thanks for posting this.  The imagery is quite beautiful, sort  of a feminine Alpha and Omega or I Am Who Am
You are most welcome, I'm glad you like it. It is really reminiscent of the "Apha and Omega" etc, in fact I think that the latter stemmed from the former. The understanding of the great Goddess as the beginning and the end is far older that Judaism, it stared during the Paleolithic, with the simple observation that women give birth, hence all life came from the female beginning, hence nature was deified in female form; late the same understanding turned toward the male God, for social reasons, IMHO; but the imagery was retained and pasted on the male god.

I think that the Gnostics tapped in very ancient layers of contemplation and understanding, because they combined all kinds of old and new religious notions and philosophical ideas; that's why they retained such a respect for the feminine principle.

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 01:59
Don,your map above shows us only how Bible had divided Hebrew people and nothing else.Main problem is even,did they call themselves Hebrew before?Names of tribes could be names of their leaders and nothing more.But we talk about religion predecessor of all:Great Mother or Mother Earth?Religions that have come after reminds me about Buddhism in India and it's purpose:Accept your destiny people and cast you belong to cause we are masters on Earth's soil!Big smileYes they have to approve someones rightness to power.

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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 02:55
Originally posted by medenaywe

Don,your map above shows us only how Bible had divided Hebrew people and nothing else.Main problem is even,did they call themselves Hebrew before?Names of tribes could be names of their leaders and nothing more.But we talk about religion predecessor of all:Great Mother or Mother Earth?Religions that have come after reminds me about Buddhism in India and it's purpose:Accept your destiny people and cast you belong to cause we are masters on Earth's soil!Big smileYes they have to approve someones rightness to power.

What map? I didn't post a map, but a graphic that shows at what time Hebrew separated from Akkadian, which time is the supposed time of the separation of this tribe/family/whatever from the Akkad. I don't think they called themselves "Hebrew" at this time, Abraham wasn't a Hebrew yet, he was just a guy from Ur that decided to look otherwise for place to put his hat, for whatever reason.

I suspect that the first religion of all is exactly the Mother Earth/Great Goddess, because what else was there, but life and death, what else mattered in say, the Paleolithic, when the fertility cult female figures started to appear in the Asia Minor and Europe. Later religions appeared when people were able to think with symbols, such thinking wasn't necessary for the Mother Earth veneration, since it was based on direct observation.

The later religions whoever was involved had to receive an approval by the god/s so hey can rule, perform in the god's name, or simply exist; the cult of Great Mother didn't require such, as nature is accepting, as a female is, it gives or take, but it doesn't demand for the devotee to be worthy of approval, it requires simply to exist. However, some cults required a king to make a Hiero Gamos with the Great Mother, in order to be able to rule.

The Thracians supposedly had that, the king was considered a son of the Mother Goddess and he was supposed to wed her too, this is a very loaded with meanings sacred incest/not-incest, because the king was a son to nature, and a lover in the same time; this is not controversial really, because in a strict sense everything had been born by nature, even the lover one has. Fraser wrote on that a lot, I have to get him from the library and quote more sacred rites like that.

In Christianity the need a king to be accepted by the Church is actually repetition of this ritual - as the Chruch, Eklesia, was seen in the Middle Ages as a female /and Christ being wedded to her/; so coronation of a king by a religious authority is in essence a Hiero Gamos with the Church, this putting the ruler in the sacred place and sacred time, and receiving a approval to rule.



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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 03:10
What map? I didn't post a map, but a graphic that shows at what time Hebrew separated from Akkadian, which time is the supposed time of the separation of this tribe/family/whatever from the Akkad. I don't think they called themselves "Hebrew" at this time, Abraham wasn't a Hebrew yet, he was just a guy from Ur that decided to look otherwise for place to put his hat, for whatever reason.
  Than graphic you posted above.I agree about the rest 100%.Smile
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 03:57
Originally posted by medenaywe

Than graphic you posted above.I agree about the rest 100%.Smile

I seeSmile. What do you disagree with the graph on? I got it from the Nichols/Ryder study I referred under the graph.
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 04:02
Where did he find it?Inside the Bible?How much does relevant statistic give us Bible?As for Noah and his animals collection i agree also:There had been at least two animals with different sexes but the rests were copy&paste compilation of elder texts with more or less known origins!Big smile(Except Noah had no extra powers
of course!)


Edited by medenaywe - 30-Jan-2012 at 06:01
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 04:18
Originally posted by medenaywe

Where did he find it?Inside the Bible?How did relevant statistic give us Bible?As for Noah and his animals collection i agree also:There had been at least two animals with different sexes but the rests were copy&paste compilation of elder texts with more or less known origins!Big smile(Except Noah had no extra powers
of course!)

No, the Bible has nothing to do with that. They did a Bayesian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_inference_in_phylogeny  linguistic analyses on the Semitic languages, this is like a genetic analyses of a language, with statistic and math formulas. I generally trust this methods, it had been used with many languages, Asian etc. Take a look at the study.

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 04:20
Ok than.Wait for my analyses,Don.You have some of them inside Origins of languages/General history.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 20:26
I came upon some Christian imagery that seems to be lifted directly from the Great Mother imagery:

This is the Tree of life, a very ancient archetype, from Gulgamesh to the Christian cross' indeed here the Tree f life becomes that gross; and what is Eve on the left becomes the Ekllesia, the holy church of the right. Now, Eve is nothing but a demonised Great Mother Goddess, her very name means "life". Anyway, she is wearing bunch of grapes in front of her genitals /grapes producing wine, the life-giving liquid in the Dionysian rituals, and the  blood of Christ in the Christian ritual/, so the symbolism is clear here - the female nature, mother nature, producing life.

The same symbol is seen here, embroidered on the attire of the Pope:

So, the Pope carries one of the symbols of the Mother Goddess on himself. I lifted the images from this site http://www.irishoriginsofcivilization.com/appendices/trees.html


Edited by Don Quixote - 30-Jan-2012 at 21:17
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 21:56
While researching Mary of Madgala for another thread and forum, I came upon this:
Inanna with a jar, 1800 B, Mari
Inanna or Ishtar with Jar and dress similar to Magdalene
Mary of Magdala with a jar, by Luca Singorelli
Mary Magdalene by Signorelli
The pose, dress and hands position is identical. Now, what was the jar for? Both Dumuzi and Jesus were resurrected, so the jar couldn't have had any ashes of them. Other painters portrayed Mary of Magdala with a jar also:
Rodjier van der Weiden

Bernardino Luini

Quentin Massis


Ambrosius Benson

all from 16 century, there are more pictures here  http://witcombe.sbc.edu/davincicode/magdalen-jar.html
Nowadays the jar is identified with the Holy Graal, but such a notion wasn't yet in existence in Sumeria, from where the archetype came. Archeologists had found jars bearing the seal of Inanna
http://enenuru.net/html/misc/cityseals.htm  in archaic Ur; one seal, this one, was interpreted as uterus:
"

"27. This toponym was interpreted by M. Lambert, RA 64 (1970): 189, as either Umma or Akshak. Identification with Kesh was suggested by Green, ASJ 8 (1986); 77. Matthews, MSVO 2, 34-35, analyzes the grapheme in question as "two signs, perhaps the jar with lid." The "jar" is more likely a "womb," related formally to the "omega" symbol of Ninhursag = uterus with ovaries, ..." ibid.

Anyway, my impression is that the said jar was a symbol for female womb, which explains it why Inanna has it, she being the the archetypal Mother Goddess. I think I wrote here on me considering Mary of Magdala as another manifestation of the Mother Goddess, and the jar she is potrayed with roots for this connection. The idea that the Holy Graal was actually a baby born by Mary from Jesus plays into this too - jar=womb=Graal=baby.

Anyway, my bottom line is that Mary of Magdala is another archetypal image of the Great Mother Goddess; one that was seen like this in the early Christianity, like the Gnostic writings documented, and one that was pushed aside by the official Christianity that presented the Virgin Mary as such. Here I'm going to mention the line from the Gnostic "Thunder Perfect Mind" which says "I'm the Whore and the Virgin" - the  archetypal Mother-Goddess who gives-life-without- a spouse /unmarried women who have kids out of wedlock are in most cultures considered whores/, and because the mainstream Christianity so insisted on the Greko-Roman stoic idea of celibacy it had to split the image of the Mother-Goddess in 2 - the virgin and the whore. So, as a result, Mary of Magdala ended up as pronounced for a prostitute, in a homily by Pope Gregory the Great in 591, who mistook her for a prostitute in Luke; in 1969 the Vatican stated that she wasn't so.

Nevertheless, why was she accused in being  a prostitute, and potrayed for centuries in art like a such, why was that needed? It was needed, because the image of Mother Goddess needed it's both parts to function. It's striking that both the Virgin Mary and the Mary of Magdala had the same name; they were in fact the both sides of one and the same coin - the Mother Goddess, a whore and virgin, the beginning and the end. We humans start our lives in a jar=womb, and end up in a jar=jar-with-ashes=coffin. The Great Mother holds that in her hand, the jar, the womb and the coffin, the life and death, the beginning and the end. The Virgin was pictured with Jesus in her hands, which is the same, since Jesus was the life and death, beginning and end, alpha and omega; Mary of Magdala was pictured with a jar in her hands, which is the same. Hence, the Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalene are one and the same personage, the Great Mother Goddess.
Mary Magdalene with Alabaster Jar
Mary Magdalene with Alabaster Jar
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2012 at 01:14
Yes extended symbolism in further Christian church is more than obvious Don.Let us search further here.Smile
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2012 at 06:34
From Womb You came in womb(Jar?) you go!Yes it is possible symbolic here for Mother!
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2012 at 23:05
The Christian image of the Virgin with a child is copied directly from images of the Great Mother Goddess in older traditions - my examples are with the Etruscan and Egyptian ones.
Etruscan Mother-Goddess and her child /far older iconography than the Christian one/ surrounded with the protection of the serpent - the last being one of the symbols of the Great Mother.

The Egyptian Rannut /an aspect of the Great Mother/ with her son Tem.

Rannut was goddess of fertility and harvest, sometimes presented as a snake. Anyway the snake was misinterpreted in  Christianity as something evil, and used to demonize Eve. The connection of Eve with the snake was very natural - Eve was a Mother Goddess, therefore the snake was supposed to be her symbol, her-other-self, and she offered wisdom, knowledge, which is power, not a sin; but Christianity read all this backwards, making the snake satan or whatever and a seducer; while in fact the snake was a protector. And of course the tree in the garden of Eden was the ancient Tree of Life that appears in Gilgamesh's story as "the Tree in Inanna's garden", with a snake living in the roots, and a bird in the branches:

"...The ki-sikil-lil-la-ke is associated with a serpent and a zu bird,[11] In Bilgames and the Netherworld, a huluppu tree (willow) grows in Inanna's garden in Uruk, whose wood she plans to use to build a new throne. After ten years of growth, she comes to harvest it and finds a serpent living at its base, a Zu bird raising young in its crown, and that a ki-sikil-lil-la-ke made a house in its trunk. Bilgames/Gilgamesh is said to have smitten the snake, and then the zu bird flew away to the mountains with its young, while the ki-sikil-lil-la-ke fearfully destroys its house and runs for the forest.[12][13]..."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith


However, the image of the snake as protector and wisdom and as a part of the mother-goddess is an archetypal and therefore comes out in human thinking no matter if they realize it or not. This is "St. Bridgit and the Vision of Nativity" by Niccolo di Tommaso. The nativity scene is in a cave, the cave being the uterus of the Mother-Goddess, and there is a snakelike figure made by letters, /as long as I can see/ between Jesus and the virgin Mary.

This is the 'Annunciation" by Fra Angelico - the words are coming form the mouth of the angel toward Mary like 3 snakes; 3, like 7, is one of the sacred numbers since the Sumerians:

So, both the tree of life and the snake are images connected with the Great Mother Goddess, and they both entered the Christian tradition, albeit in a misdirected and misunderstood form. With the pose of the Virgin and Child, this makes 3 more images passed from the Mother-Goddess cult directly in Christianity.




Edited by Don Quixote - 31-Jan-2012 at 23:11
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2012 at 03:34
Yes very convincing presentation of Divine features of new born God:Inside Mother's womb or cave!He is mother's child.People in my translation had called themselves mother's Don,cause of religious reasons and
they ruled Egypt during Ptolemy the Fifth(also before!).I suppose it was religious sign more than ethnicity.Ethnicity of Ptolemy's people was avatar of mine in singular,NaDeNaJVe.Their sign inside DeMoTiCo
is front slash part of this cross:SmilePlank that destroys symmetrical structure of cross.(Now days it is back slash those days was front slash,first sound every mother gives to her child making it not cries&dreams.)It is inside Cyrillic letter "I" that once sounded,The First Her!Smile


Edited by medenaywe - 01-Feb-2012 at 03:46
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