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Scythians - Mongols, Tartars or .....????

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  Quote PanzerOberst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Scythians - Mongols, Tartars or .....????
    Posted: 17-Jan-2012 at 04:16
Hello everyone, am a bit in the dark on this matter. I hope somebody can enlighten me on this matter, about who they are & their origins. 
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  Quote white knight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2012 at 04:58
Mongol = Tartar, warfare patterned from Scythian, Scythian from Parthia and probably from the Volga river
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2012 at 19:10
From what i understand, the Scythians were Mongols who settled near Iran. Their descendents intermarried with the locals and include the Huns, Alans and Tatars
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2012 at 19:41
No they were not Mongols.  Some Kurds also descend from Scythians and do they look Mongoloid? genetics also show no Mongoloid influence on Kurds as well.

Scythians were Iranic, they had the same origin as the Medes,Parthians,Persians and other Iranic tribes.  Only difference is Scythians moved further north and west and likely mixed with others, but the original Scythians were of Iranic stock and might I add not slavic like some slavs claim.


Edited by Ince - 19-Jan-2012 at 19:42
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2012 at 06:57
The answer is that all of the above are related to the Scythians in one form or other.
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote PanzerOberst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 12:12
Many thanks all. My thoughts were the same as Alani Dragon as well, I had chanced on some info that the Scythians had spread both to the east & west as well, ultimately ending up in europe (Saxons & Anglo Saxons). But how accurate this info is I am uncertain.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 12:25
Those spreading into Europe, PanzerOberst, would probably have been related peoples to the Scythians, the Sarmatians, and the Alans(considered to be connected to the Sarmatians).
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote PanzerOberst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2012 at 02:34
Again, many thanks guys for the brief.
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  Quote benzin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2012 at 20:13
Simon Kezai, Gesta Hunorum et Hungarorum (1280) :

"Scythia lies in Europe and it expands to the east, on the north it ends in a huge sea, otherwise its boundaries are the Rif mountains (probably the Urals) and its far from the hot territories.

Its connected with Asia to the east. Two large rivers flows trough Scythia, one's name is Etöl, the other's is Togora.
Those nations who live in Scythia are lazy, arrogant, their only wish to rob, they care about things doesnt worth to, and their skin is generally brown instead of white.

To the east from Scythia we find the country of Joria, then Tarsia (Tartaria) and Mangalia (Mongolia) where Europe ends.

Under the county of the summer sun it lies the korozmian (kwarezm) nation and Etiopia wich is called little India as well. Then on the south until the river Don, it lies an endless unpassable plain.

River Don wich is called Etöl by the Magyars, flows from Scythia but it passes trough the Rif mountains. On the west the neighbours of Scythia are the Pechenegs and the White Huns. On the north there are endless forests until the country of Suzdal.
There is fog for 9 months in that country, and they see the sun only in june, july and august, and they see the sun only between 6 to 9 oclock.
In the mountains of Suzdal country, there are crystals to be found, and the mountains are guarded by Griffs and hunting falcons lives there wich are called Keretset in Magyar language.

The land of Scythia is one land but it can be divided to 3 countries. Baskar (Baskir) Dent (?) and Magyar countries. In Scythia there are 108 provinces, with 108 tribes as it is divided to 108 pieces by Magor and Hunor when they invaded Scythia at the ancient times. So the clean Hungary is settled by 108 tribes, and if there is anyone else who joined the Hungarians is a foreigner or descend from slaves, because in the swamps of Meotis Hunor and Magor had 108 tribes, not more and not less. at the end of this book all 108 Scythian families will be listed one by one."
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  Quote benzin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2012 at 20:56
From an other ancient hungarian source Anonymous' Gesta about scythia.

Sorry for my english, its my translation:

...Scythians are an old tribe, and scythia is a mighty power of the east. First king of Scythia were Magog, where the name Magyar comes from, he was son of Jafet.
Descendant of Magog, the great and mighty king Attila, who at the year 451 left Scythia and invaded pannonia, made the romans to flee in horror, and settled in the country.
Near the river danube, north to the upper hot water springs (pilis mountains) he founded a new capital, he reconstruted the buildings and walls he founded there.

That city is called Budavar (Buda castle), and the germans called it Etzelburg....

But back to scythians. Those tribes were peaceful at the beginning of history, they wandered on the endless steppes, each scythian had only one wife, and they considered themselves rich because they all had enough food and they were free. Much later on Scythians became bored with endless wars, according to sources,they drank human blood, they did terrible things.
They became firm people, no emperor or king could invade them. They made Darius great king of persia to run. 80,000 persians killed in the battle, and the coward Darius himself ran back to persia. They killed Cyrus who was also a persian king together with his 330,000 men. Even Alexander the great (son of king Philip and queen Olympiadis) had to run from the battle against them disgracefully.
Scythians didnt know tiredness, they were huge and brave in battle. They didnt own anything they would miss, thats why they fought so fiercely.
And when they won a battle, they didnt try everything to get the properties of the defeated ones, not like some of their descandants nowadays, they only wished for fame..

Not counting Dareios, Cyrus and Alexander no other one dared to step its feet to the land of Scythia. They were quick on horses, they weared a helmet on their head, and they better used the bow than any other nation on this planet...

Because it (Scythia) lies far from the hot territories (probably deserts) it became overpopulated. Neither food nor place was not enough for its many inhabitants, so the 7 royal families whom we call hetumoger (7 magyar) sit together for a counsel. They decided to find a new home for themselves wich is good to live at.
...
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  Quote PanzerOberst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2012 at 11:51
Many thanks Benzin for your very informative post, I must profess that my knowledge of central European history is sadly lacking. From what I had understood much earlier, the Cimmerians were also closely related to the scythians, is this correct?
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2012 at 02:22
Originally posted by PanzerOberst

Hello everyone, am a bit in the dark on this matter. I hope somebody can enlighten me on this matter, about who they are & their origins. 
 
You want to know about the origins of Scythians or Mongols, Tatars, ...? Scythians are an extinct ancient people, like Babylonians, Sumerians and etc, but Mongols and Tatars are almost modern peoples, like Americans, Brazilians, ...
 
It can not be asked that ancient Greeks were Turk because Turks already live in a region where ancient Greeks lived, in fact they were originally two different peoples in all aspects, the same thing can be said about Scythians and Tatars.
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  Quote PanzerOberst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2012 at 02:28
But could they be modern descendants (albeit diluted in blood)of the Scythian people?
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2012 at 04:13
Originally posted by PanzerOberst

But could they be modern descendants (albeit diluted in blood)of the Scythian people?
 
There isn't any direct descendant of ancient Scythians, in the early middle ages some other extinct peoples such as Sarmatians and Alans were probably descendants of Scythians and in the modern times Ossetians in Georgia and Russia, Jassic people in Hungary, ... can be related to them.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2012 at 00:23
The Scythians' language remains unknown and Iranian is merely a guess, mostly influenced by the type of clothing they wore which often resembles that of the Medes and Persians. As for their original home, it was probably somewhere around the Black Sea region. The Hermitage museum in Russia gives a good idea of their appearance and it is that of typical northern and central Europeans. People mistake the modern Slavs as the original phenotype of the Scythians, but that is wrong because the modern Slavs, especially of Russia, now have considerable mongoloid admixture, which wasn't the case 2500 years ago.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2012 at 20:45
Originally posted by kegger

The Scythians' language remains unknown and Iranian is merely a guess, mostly influenced by the type of clothing they wore which often resembles that of the Medes and Persians. As for their original home, it was probably somewhere around the Black Sea region. The Hermitage museum in Russia gives a good idea of their appearance and it is that of typical northern and central Europeans. People mistake the modern Slavs as the original phenotype of the Scythians, but that is wrong because the modern Slavs, especially of Russia, now have considerable mongoloid admixture, which wasn't the case 2500 years ago.

Scythian descent might explain the straight black hair and darker skin of many Poles (including my grandad who was often mistaken for a Turk or Spaniard), although it's more likely their ancestors were Jews or Tatars
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2012 at 00:53
Yeah, you might have a point were it not for all of these bothersome images from the Hermitage museum, unless of course you mean the Scythians that mixed later on in their travels. I was talking about their ultimate origins, not their later absorption of, or final absorption by, other ethnicities. Naturally some will claim that I am cherry-picking what they believe were once Mongoloidic, Finno-Ugric, or early Turkish-like Scythians that wandered into Russia and became progressively "whiter", if you will, much as the people of Finland mostly resemble their Swedish and Norwegian neighbors nowadays.


Sorry for the empty form above. Seems my pasting function failed for some reason.


Edited by kegger - 03-Aug-2012 at 00:57
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2012 at 19:22
That's right. Before mixing with the fair-skinned inhabitants of northern Iran, the Scythians were probably Mongoloid like the Huns
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2012 at 19:36
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by kegger

The Scythians' language remains unknown and Iranian is merely a guess, mostly influenced by the type of clothing they wore which often resembles that of the Medes and Persians. As for their original home, it was probably somewhere around the Black Sea region. The Hermitage museum in Russia gives a good idea of their appearance and it is that of typical northern and central Europeans. People mistake the modern Slavs as the original phenotype of the Scythians, but that is wrong because the modern Slavs, especially of Russia, now have considerable mongoloid admixture, which wasn't the case 2500 years ago.

Scythian descent might explain the straight black hair and darker skin of many Poles (including my grandad who was often mistaken for a Turk or Spaniard), although it's more likely their ancestors were Jews or Tatars
The Cimmerians, the dominant force on the steppe prior to the Scythians, were thought to be black haired.


What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2012 at 19:04
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by kegger

The Scythians' language remains unknown and Iranian is merely a guess, mostly influenced by the type of clothing they wore which often resembles that of the Medes and Persians. As for their original home, it was probably somewhere around the Black Sea region. The Hermitage museum in Russia gives a good idea of their appearance and it is that of typical northern and central Europeans. People mistake the modern Slavs as the original phenotype of the Scythians, but that is wrong because the modern Slavs, especially of Russia, now have considerable mongoloid admixture, which wasn't the case 2500 years ago.

Scythian descent might explain the straight black hair and darker skin of many Poles (including my grandad who was often mistaken for a Turk or Spaniard), although it's more likely their ancestors were Jews or Tatars
The Cimmerians, the dominant force on the steppe prior to the Scythians, were thought to be black haired.



Is there any credible link between the Cimmerians and the ancient Celts, or is this purely Ron Howard fantasy?
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