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The Knights Templar

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  Quote claymore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Knights Templar
    Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 08:13
one thing i always wonderd , when history started talking about templers
not sure on that date, could they have taken the form of a relegious order
from another culture ,romans  and ancient egypt being example
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 10:02
who did like to talk about ancestors as usurers and extortioners?But knights that have fought for religious causes will!Maybe I am right or wrong?!?One of the Pope's was pirate first as it have been known by us?!?  
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 12:12
Originally posted by Chookie

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

It was not impossible for them sail west given the tech.....but probable? Given the alternatives? No.

Agreed as far as it goes.
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Sail westward into the unknown and you lose what's left of your power and influence in an already well established hierarchy of feudalism and the perks and privileges associated with it.

But it wasn't unknown. Despite what we read in the history books, the existence of "lands across the sea" was well known to fishermen and sailors. The Portuguese had been fishing the Grand Banks for centuries, the Norse had been in Greenland for centuries and had explored Vinland, Helluland and Markland.

It's possible there were some Templar-type people along on Prince Henry Sinclair's expedition in 1398.....
 
I'm not arguing with the possibility of it Chookie nor am I denying the earlier voyages and attempts at colonization. What I question is whether or not it would have been practical for the order to have done so. And maintained their ongoing activities, under the guise of other orders, with the primary mechanism of their control...ie. wealth and associated records of banking..copies of letters of credit etc.. 3000 miles west.
 
I doubt it highly. What oft is forgotten is that by decree properties in many cases not in France were transferred to the order of St. John for control and accumulation of wealth and distribution. Well as noted above many Templars ended up in the Hospitallers, if not the Order of Christ. Common sense then again supports the conclusion that the order now under the control of their brother orders leadership in the main will do what I have previously suggested.
 
As for Sinclair's alleged voyage...it remains just that at this point. Alleged.
Personally, I'd like to believe it. But I need more then what I have studied from Forster and the Zeno brothers. Or the carvings at the chapel. Otoh their claim to have Templar connections etc...is much more credible. First where is the historical proofs and or verification and or disclosure by the Prince? there are none. Understandable if secrecy was a primary consideration but it still weakens the case.
Secondly if they were Templars why testify against brother Templars as has been pointed out by Rails unless it again was for the sake non-disambiguation and or disinformation.
 
Great conspiracist stuff and like all good ones, probably has many elemental of yet unproven or disclosed fact.
 
As I noted I am all for the Sinclairs and a undiscovered explanation.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 17-Oct-2011 at 15:54
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote claymore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2011 at 12:47
has it been proved that there is a link between the templers
and modern freemasons
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2011 at 15:54
Depends on your belief in the veracity of the sources and claimants.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Chookie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2011 at 16:45
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by Chookie

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

It was not impossible for them sail west given the tech.....but probable? Given the alternatives? No.

Agreed as far as it goes.
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Sail westward into the unknown and you lose what's left of your power and influence in an already well established hierarchy of feudalism and the perks and privileges associated with it.

But it wasn't unknown. Despite what we read in the history books, the existence of "lands across the sea" was well known to fishermen and sailors. The Portuguese had been fishing the Grand Banks for centuries, the Norse had been in Greenland for centuries and had explored Vinland, Helluland and Markland.

It's possible there were some Templar-type people along on Prince Henry Sinclair's expedition in 1398.....
 
I'm not arguing with the possibility of it Chookie nor am I denying the earlier voyages and attempts at colonization. What I question is whether or not it would have been practical for the order to have done so. And maintained their ongoing activities, under the guise of other orders, with the primary mechanism of their control...ie. wealth and associated records of banking..copies of letters of credit etc.. 3000 miles west.
 
I doubt it highly. What oft is forgotten is that by decree properties in many cases not in France were transferred to the order of St. John for control and accumulation of wealth and distribution. Well as noted above many Templars ended up in the Hospitallers, if not the Order of Christ. Common sense then again supports the conclusion that the order now under the control of their brother orders leadership in the main will do what I have previously suggested.
 
As for Sinclair's alleged voyage...it remains just that at this point. Alleged.
Personally, I'd like to believe it. But I need more then what I have studied from Forster and the Zeno brothers. Or the carvings at the chapel. Otoh their claim to have Templar connections etc...is much more credible. First where is the historical proofs and or verification and or disclosure by the Prince? there are none. Understandable if secrecy was a primary consideration but it still weakens the case.
Secondly if they were Templars why testify against brother Templars as has been pointed out by Rails unless it again was for the sake non-disambiguation and or disinformation.
 
Great conspiracist stuff and like all good ones, probably has many elemental of yet unproven or disclosed fact.
 
As I noted I am all for the Sinclairs and a undiscovered explanation.

On the point of the bolded passage, I don't disagree - in fact I don't see any point in moving a banking system to a place where the concept of money was pretty much non-existent. The point I was trying to make is that not all the Templars were involved in the business - it would have reserved to the more senior members of the order.
For money you did what guns could not do.........
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2011 at 18:27
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2011 at 19:08
Originally posted by claymore



has it been proved that there is a link between the templers
and modern freemasons

Highly likely. Freemasonry originated in Scotland, a place where Templars were known to reside. Some claim they built Rosslyn chapel
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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  Quote claymore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2011 at 12:21
what i don t get is ,why not start over in places round the world
where they were welcome ,those who escaped the bloodbath
went to countries which were safe havens ,they had done so well at banking ect
everything went  underground after that
or did they still think they were in danger
 
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2011 at 20:16
They did and they did.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2014 at 19:42
Originally posted by Nick1986

I don't buy it either. The templars could, and did, find shelter in neutral countries and remote areas, including England, Portugal, and parts of eastern Germany
 
 
You're quite correct.
 
Portugal and Scotland were indeed two countries where the Templars could seek refuge.
 
It is of interest to note that some of the Masonic Lodges with the highest degrees and the most ancient rites are in England.
 
I have no doubt that the Templars survived, albeit in much smaller numbers, and probably exist today under the guise of Masonry or something similar.
 
The English organisation, "The Knights Templar" are NOT the descendants of the original Templars, and should not be so confused.
 
It would be interesting if the Templars, in which ever coat they now travel, did reveal themselves.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2014 at 17:00
It seems the so called family name "Sinclair" is but a bastardized version of the real name which was, as I remember, actually Saint Claire/St. Clair, etc.! "Sin" and "St", who would have thunk it?

And there also exists information stating that the Templars controlled great tracts of land in what is now Greece, Albania, etc. acting as the agents of the King of Spain. This occurred during the so called "Frankish Kingdoms" in the area, and even during the invasions and occupation of the area by the Ottoman Turks.

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 12-Feb-2014 at 17:07
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2014 at 19:11
Originally posted by opuslola

It seems the so called family name "Sinclair" is but a bastardized version of the real name which was, as I remember, actually Saint Claire/St. Clair, etc.! "Sin" and "St", who would have thunk it?

And there also exists information stating that the Templars controlled great tracts of land in what is now Greece, Albania, etc. acting as the agents of the King of Spain. This occurred during the so called "Frankish Kingdoms" in the area, and even during the invasions and occupation of the area by the Ottoman Turks.

Ron
 
 
Interestingly, the Family name Sinclair, is said to come from Caithness, the northern most region of Scotland-about as far away from Europe as one could get in those days.
 
Also, the English (?) family name St. John is usually pronounced Sinjun-curious!


Edited by toyomotor - 12-Feb-2014 at 19:12
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