Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Anglo-Zulu War of 1879
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Anglo-Zulu War of 1879
    Posted: 15-Aug-2012 at 19:18
The native troops were recruited from tribes hostile to the Zulus, including the Basuto, Mponso, and Amanagawne who comprised the cavalry detachment
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
Kevinmeath View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 16-May-2011
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84 		  Quote Kevinmeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 20:44
To those interested was brought up in South Wales so 'Zulu' was great but in  not exactly accurate.
 
I found Mike Snook and Adrian Grieaves books to be very good
cymru am byth
Back to Top
Kevinmeath View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 16-May-2011
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84 		  Quote Kevinmeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 19:33
Originally posted by Nick1986

Irregular and volunteer units of the Zulu War
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=udNhFg-rKX8C&lpg=PP1&ots=grX_om5dtH&dq=zulu%20war&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
In his book Mike Snook makes the point that that when listening to Zulu 'Tales' of the battle they talk of the 'Zebras' coming to join the 'Red' in the last stand.
 
He was of the opinion he was talking about 'Natal Crabineers' who wore 'black' (actually dark navy) and white police uniforms, who you could argue were braver than the redcoats-- they had little or no chance to escape but fought on ---the Police had horses and could have escape but decided not to.
cymru am byth
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 19:22
Irregular and volunteer units of the Zulu War
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=udNhFg-rKX8C&lpg=PP1&ots=grX_om5dtH&dq=zulu%20war&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 17:04
Originally posted by Kevinmeath

Originally posted by Nick1986

The historical officers and men of the 24th were very different from their on-screen portrayals. Pvt Hook's depiction as a rogue deeply offended his daughters. In reality he was a model soldier who didn't drink alcohol
Hook was a 'teetotaller' but at the end of the battle he stands in line (heavily bandaged from a head wound) for the Rum ration --"What are you doing here Hookie?" asks a shocked CSM Bourne
"I could bloody well do with a drink after that Sarge!"
Later Hook returns to his duty as company cook and is in his shirtsleeves making tea when called around the corner by Bourne-- to Hooks horror Chelmsford and his Staff are there and want an account of the battle which he gives but Hook is horrified --"How could you let me stand and report to by General improperly dressed! shirtsleeves-disgraceful!"
 
 
 
 
 
A classic response for an infantryman. Hook and his partners that day, like Rodger Young and his, always get the nod.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
Kevinmeath View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 16-May-2011
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84 		  Quote Kevinmeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 14:43
Originally posted by Nick1986

The historical officers and men of the 24th were very different from their on-screen portrayals. Pvt Hook's depiction as a rogue deeply offended his daughters. In reality he was a model soldier who didn't drink alcohol
Hook was a 'teatotaller' but at the end of the battle he stands in line (heavily bandaged from a head wound) for the Rum ration --"What are you doing here Hookie?" askes a shocked CSM Bourne
"I could bloody well do with a drink after that Sarge!"
Later Hook returns to his duty as company cook and is in his shirtsleeves making tea when called around the corner by Bourne-- to Hooks horror Chelmsford and his Staff are there and want an account of the battle which he gives but Hook is horrified --"How could you let me stand and report to by General improperly dressed! shirtsleeves-disgraceful!"
cymru am byth
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2012 at 19:29
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z3sLAQAAIAAJ&dq=zulu%20war&pg=PA92#v=onepage&q&f=false
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2012 at 01:40
My hat's off to Birddog and CV. How refreshing to hear a viewpoint on a colonial war which doesn't parrot the sophomoric swill that  "they were after to natives gold and diamonds" BS. As for the British Army underestimating their enemies, that too must be approached with care. Colonial campaigns required the same care of marshalling and logistical planning that any ordinary overseas campaign would. The newspapers at home might easily have written off the opposition as "fuzzy-wuzzies' or whatever, but it is unlikely that military planners did. Military medicine was not tremendously advanced at the time, and as many troops (if not more) could be expected to die from the various rigors of the campaign as in battle.  
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2012 at 19:27
Check out these drawings of Rorkes Drift:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2166598/Astonishing-drawings-capturing-bloody-aftermath-Rorkes-Drift.html
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2012 at 19:16
Fula, what do you know about the Zulu army?
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
Michael Mckean View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 10-Feb-2012
Location: Troon, Scotia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 35 		  Quote Michael Mckean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2012 at 08:30

I personally find this war fascinating. Zulu is probably one of if not my favourite film, Zulu Dawn was ok but definitely could not live up to the original. Despite its greatness, Zulu contains many historical innacuracies:

  • The British troops wore tea-tan stained helmets. not pure white and with no badge.
  • Hooky was displayed as a villain as the film potentially needed one to make things more interesting. He was actually one of the greats at Rorkes Drift
  • The reverend Witt was never drunk.
  • Colour segeant Bourne was actually only 24 years old.
  • Bromhead was actually partially deaf
  • There was no dispute between the two commanders(bromhead and chard)
  • Ardendorff stance is debated, it is not known as to whether he actually fought.
  • Some of the wrong rifles are used.
  • There was no heroic singing
  • The 24th at the time was not a Welsh regiment

Overall, the British wiped out a kingdom. The defeat at Isandlwana was down to poor leadership and tactics as Chelmsford made the fatal mistake of splitting his forces, sending one half deep into Zulu territory. The Brits may have underestimated the Zulus at first, huge numbers and determination proved that natives could outmaneuver modern equipped armies.
The sun never sets on the British Empire
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 19:01
The historical officers and men of the 24th were very different from their on-screen portrayals. Pvt Hook's depiction as a rogue deeply offended his daughters. In reality he was a model soldier who didn't drink alcohol
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
Kevinmeath View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 16-May-2011
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84 		  Quote Kevinmeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2011 at 17:34
Originally posted by Chookie

Sorry Nick, they didn't. Basically because the 2/24th Warwickshire Regiment wasn't Welsh at the time - ity didn't become Welsh until the Caldwell-Childers reforms of 1881. There were less than 20 Welshmen present.......

S, No "Men of Harlech" singalong........
The regiment had been based in Brecon since 1874 and was in the process of becoming 'Welsh'.
 
The 2nd battalion was a young battalion and had a high proportion of young soldiers in it , even the 1st battalion recieved 50-60 men a year from Brecon.
 
So the battalion (especially the 2nd) was more Welsh than most regiments but could not really be described as 'Welsh' in todays concept.
 
Also the demographics of South Wales (its new recruitment ground) were such that many local people were new immigrants from all over Greater Britain and even the world-- immigration into South Wales at that time was huge.
 
For instance John Williams VC (real name Fielding) was born in Cwmbran (so 'Welsh') to Irish parents, new immigrants to the coalfield.
 
Best description is that they were 'British' (including Ireland at that time) with a stong Welsh flavour.
cymru am byth
Back to Top
Bulldog69 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 29-Aug-2011
Location: South Africa
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 53 		  Quote Bulldog69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2011 at 06:36
Not just the 'sing-off' was made up - virtually the whole film is fictional (though a damn good film).

It was not even filmed in the correct location, but rather up in the Drakensbergs, and the layout of the mission station is wrong. The Zulus certainly never 'saluted fellow braves' at the end - they scarpered as Lord Chelmsford's force came to relieve the defenders.
 
It is worth noting that Cy Endfield (the co-writer / director / producer) was regarded as a 'communist' by the CIA and was not allowed to work in Hollywood at the time.
Back to Top
Chookie View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 14-Apr-2008
Location: Alba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 171 		  Quote Chookie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2011 at 16:59
Sorry Nick, they didn't. Basically because the 2/24th Warwickshire Regiment wasn't Welsh at the time - ity didn't become Welsh until the Caldwell-Childers reforms of 1881. There were less than 20 Welshmen present.......

S, No "Men of Harlech" singalong........
For money you did what guns could not do.........
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2011 at 19:26

Did the British and Zulus have the same singing match depicted in the film?
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
Kevinmeath View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 16-May-2011
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84 		  Quote Kevinmeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2011 at 14:54
I find the Anglo-Zulu war fascinating, especially the Zulu victory at Isandlwana and defeat at Rorkes drift, both illustrated that soldiers of any army can be over confident.
cymru am byth
Back to Top
Bulldog69 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 29-Aug-2011
Location: South Africa
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 53 		  Quote Bulldog69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2011 at 10:25
I have never read anything that indicated the British had any reason to believe there were diamond deposits there, no.
She sounds like a typically incompetent teacher - not sure why that profession seems to attract so many morons these days.
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2011 at 19:44
I was under the impression South Africa had many diamond mines. Were the Brits aware there were no diamonds in Zululand? I learned nothing in my school geography classes, no thanks to my useless teacher Mrs Wickens who was better-suited to modelling plus-size clothing.

Edited by Nick1986 - 17-Sep-2011 at 19:44
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
Bulldog69 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 29-Aug-2011
Location: South Africa
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 53 		  Quote Bulldog69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2011 at 00:15
Gold and diamonds? I think your geography of South Africa is letting you down.
 
The significant gold and diamond deposits in South Africa are no where near Zululand - please do not do the old knee jerk reaction of thinking every colonial war was about stealing someone else's gold. Its a bit like the modern trend of thinking saying every war is 'about oil' makes you clever and insightful.
The diamonds of South Africa are overwhelmingly found in the Kimberley area - a quick glance at a map will make you aware of your mistake. South Africa's gold  is overwhelmingly in the Transvaal and had not been discovered in 1879. Again, the Transvaal is not in Zululand.

Cetshwayo certainly wanted to avoid war with Great Britain - for the simple reason that he knew he would lose it. But how were the Zulus, a society based entirely on perpetual expansion, continual subjegating those around it, and living off stealing other peoples' cattle and women, meant to survive in the 'modern' era? The only way the Zulus would have existed happily in the midst of european societies was to change their way of life enormously. Alas, this was never going to happen.
The Twsana of modern day Botswana are a good example of how African tribes were able to co-exist with the new reality of Colonial Africa. Unlike the Zulus, the Twsana embraced trade with the British and did not feel the need to launch murderous raids on their neighbours. When the Twsana came under increasing pressure from the Boers, they appealed for (and received) a British Protectorate.  


Edited by Bulldog69 - 17-Sep-2011 at 00:16
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.