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Toltec
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Topic: Military class system, outdated? Posted: 05-Jul-2011 at 06:43 |
Most militaries (all perhaps) across the world use the enlisted man - officer system. This harks back to the class systems of old.
Is there any justification for it in the modern world. Couldn't there just be a flat ranknig system like the police.?
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Nick1986
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Posted: 05-Jul-2011 at 08:29 |
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I thought military personnel were promoted according to experience: they all start out as privates before moving up in the ranks
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Mosquito
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Posted: 05-Jul-2011 at 10:28 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
I thought military personnel were promoted according to experience: they all start out as privates before moving up in the ranks |
Rather according to education. Officers are graduates of military academies. However some officers got only very basic military training - like for example lawyers and doctors - they are needed by every army but not to fight. A friend of mine is a high rank navy officer but he works as judge in the military court and all he got was 3 months long basic training.
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PADDYBOY
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Posted: 05-Jul-2011 at 11:47 |
As I understand it. University graduates enrole into Sandhurst, do their officer cadet training and then enter the British army as 1st Lieutenants.
Back in the seventies (my time) it was very unusual for a common person to rise above the rank of Regimental sergeant major, which is the highest ranking non commissioned officer (nco)
The story amongst the ranks at that time, was that if daddy sent little Nigel to a very expensive school and little Nigel still remained thick as a plank of wood. Not to worry, the expensive education would guarantee little Nigel a place at Sandhurst and as he would be very unlikely to rise above the rank of 1st Liutenant ? He probably wouldn't get to many of us lesser sorts killed.
The theory was crap tho. Some them made it to the rank of Major.
Edit. My bad. I should have said, enter the British army as sub-Lieutenants.
Edited by PADDYBOY - 05-Jul-2011 at 12:08
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Bulldog69
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Posted: 13-Sep-2011 at 07:54 |
An interesting question.
Certainly in the British Army, and as others have said, not everyone enters as a private soldier. There are still two ways to join the army: as a private, or as an officer.
I did the former and left as a corporal.
It should be noted that (in the British army) officers do not need to have been at university - most will have been, but it is not a requirement. HRH Prince Harry is a good example. Similarly, you will find private soldiers / NCOs with remarkably good educations, especially in Signals / Intelligence etc. I had a university degree when I joined - though this did lead to my training Corporals taking the piss out of me rather a lot during basic training.
A lot of our officers were very young but nominally senior to NCOs who were much older and much more experienced. The reason I say 'nominally senior' is that, in reality, there was a very strange dynamic between the senior NCOs and the junior officers - basically, the NCOs ran the platoon and guided the officer. "I don't think that's a very good idea, Sir" was a commonly heard comment.
By the time the officer is a Captain or Major, things have changed as he has the experience and a few more years of growing-up under his belt. This, combined with his better education, places him in a good position.
So its certainly a wierd and arachiac system compared to the (British) police where every police officer has to serve 2 years as a uniformed constable, but in the British army, it seems to work. The stereotype of Officers all being from public schools and squaddies all hailing from the slums is no longer true, if it ever was - the boundaries have broken down and one will often find a Sgt Major or RSM who is later given a commission. Of course, the sky has always been the limit for a good private soldier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Robertson
Edited by Bulldog69 - 13-Sep-2011 at 13:30
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Cryptic
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Posted: 13-Sep-2011 at 09:05 |
Originally posted by Bulldog69
So its certainly a wierd and arachiac system compared to the police where ever police officer has to serve 2 years as a uniformed constable, but in the British army, it seems to work. |
It also works in the American army. A significant majority of American officers have not been private soldiers. I believe almost all countries follow this model.
Israeli might still be an exception. At one time, every (or near every) Israeli officer had been a private soldier and a junior NCO. Ironically, another exception seems to be groups like the Taliban and Hezbollah.
Edited by Cryptic - 13-Sep-2011 at 09:06
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Chookie
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Posted: 13-Sep-2011 at 17:20 |
Originally posted by Bulldog69
A lot of our officers were very young but nominally senior to NCOs who were much older and much more experienced. The reason I say 'nominally senior' is that, in reality, there was a very strange dynamic between the senior NCOs and the junior officers - basically, the NCOs ran the platoon and guided the officer. "I don't think that's a very good idea, Sir" was a commonly heard comment. |
I don't see that as a strange dynamic at all. Having been in that situation (being guided) I am delighted to tell you that the NCO's run both the army and the subalterns. I went in as a sub-lieutenant and emerged not much later as a real one...... Having said that, I'm all that sure that class is the right term to apply here. I think it's more of a caste system.
Edited by Chookie - 13-Sep-2011 at 17:22
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For money you did what guns could not do.........
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Bulldog69
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Posted: 15-Sep-2011 at 06:39 |
The reason I say a strange dynamic is that the officer is senior to the NCOs and they must call him 'Sir' etc, but in reality - and as you say - the NCO's are running the show.
So that seems a little strange to me.
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claymore
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Posted: 15-Oct-2011 at 15:09 |
unlike the old days officers in war have to justify what commands they give this has made in most cases a better class of officer and olso taken a lot of the class system away
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