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Was Custer a war criminal?
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Pellethie View Drop Down
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Posts: 9 		  Quote Pellethie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was Custer a war criminal?
    Posted: 16-Jul-2012 at 19:55
War criminal is a pretty touchy term when discussing such American historical figures, but in my opinion Custer was a reckless officer, an overly ambitous glory seeker and an inept Indian fighter. Not only did he attack the peaceful camp of Cheyenne leader Black Kettle on the Washita River, but later risked the lives of the entire 7th Calvary at the Little Big Horn.
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2012 at 19:39
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Posts: 53 		  Quote Scamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2012 at 10:17
Indeed.

Custer was so frustrated by John  Mosby's raids that he resorted to burning down prominent old ladies houses in Northern Virginia in a futile attempt to make the people tell where Mosby may be hiding.

Shucks, this makes him a hero for the Unionists, not a war criminal.

Not  too many people in Northern Virginia saddened to hear about his demise.






 


Edited by Scamp - 20-May-2012 at 05:38
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2012 at 19:06
This topic might interest our new member Scamp
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2012 at 19:37
Custer hanged Confederate prisoners until Mosby threatened to do the same thing to his men:
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Posts: 55 		  Quote Autie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2011 at 08:01
lirelou...thanks for your post and well said!
 
 
“[I have] too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders...” - Terry to Custer
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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 22:21
Yes, I was surprised that they got as far south as Aguascalientes. No mean trick, given how arid the Northern Mexican deserts are. 
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Posts: 1188 		  Quote tjadams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 22:16
Originally posted by lirelou

 
There was one light in this thread's darkness, as evidenced by the reference to the Comanche, whose northern plains counterparts were the Cheyenne and Lakota. Pekka Hamalainen's Comanche Empire is well worth the read, despite it's sometime overly stilted sentences, for anyone truly interested in what life in the Southern Plains was like for native Americans.

Being a Texas History teacher, I have that book. Clap
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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 22:10
Ah, a generation weaned on "Doctor Quinn, Medicine Woman". The only Indians who were dealt a dirty deal by the government were the five civilized tribes. They had accepted co-existence with the Whites, but the discovery of gold in Northern Georgia sealed their fate. Sold down the river by a blood brother to the Cherokee, Andrew Jackson. And the only Congressman to oppose the Indian Resettlement Act that lead to the 'Trail of Tears" was Davy Crockett, who had been elected on his fame as an Indian fighter. As a result, Crockett thus lost his seat in Congress and went to Texas.

The frank truth is the Plains tribes way of life was doomed once the Americans started crossing the plains and widespread european immigration provided the masses that would people the 'Great American Desert". The great majority of those involved, white or red, never understood how rapid that process would take place. Bernard deVoto's Across the Wide Missouri which is a study of the Mountain Man culture, captures the period when the middle of the continent was the Red Man's territory, and the sadness of those who, a mere generation later, realized that it was passing into history.

Custer was merely one cog in the wheel of the nation, and those insist on viewing him as some agent of genocide are engaging in mere 'feel good' rhetoric that ignores the meaning of the word. Ah yes, it must have been the design of those evil republicans! There was one light in this thread's darkness, as evidenced by the reference to the Comanche, whose northern plains counterparts were the Cheyenne and Lakota. Pekka Hamalainen's Comanche Empire is well worth the read, despite it's sometime overly stilted sentences, for anyone truly interested in what life in the Southern Plains was like for native Americans.

Oh, Autie, here's an idea: It was never about 'land' per se. It was about the improbability of two such different civilizations sharing the same continent. And the American expansion west was no different than the Vietnamese expansion south, and the Cossack expansions east, or the European expeditions into the heart of Africa. All of them impacted upon the peoples they came across, sometimes to their benefit, and sometimes not.


Edited by lirelou - 05-Dec-2011 at 22:18
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 19:11
General Howard was one. He successfully ended Cochise's guerrilla war by negotiating a treaty with the chief
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Posts: 1188 		  Quote tjadams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 12:33

That is true Autie.

For all the white puffy clouds how righteous and supportive of

human rights for the Union's part in the Civil War, the American

Indian was the next target in expanding Republican ideals until

Grover Cleveland, a Democrat, took office.
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Posts: 55 		  Quote Autie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 11:38
Agree again TJ. GAC was just a cog in the machine. Not many (if any?) ACW Generals fared well out west against the NAs.
 
The Indians were taken out more by sheer public masses than by any one individual or army regiment.
“[I have] too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders...” - Terry to Custer
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Posts: 1188 		  Quote tjadams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 09:54
The Indian policy of the US was shameful, harmful and a stain that cannot be washed off.
But in slight defense of the actions, it was just was it was for the times. We cannot
blame them by today's moral yardstick.  Just as everyone can honestly say
slavery was wrong today, 140 yrs ago it wasn't wrong. It was what it was. Custer's
actions were just one more turn of the wheel of history. He did well during the 
Civil War with these same kinds of tactics, but this time, the hand of Fate decided
to deny him. The rest is history.
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Posts: 55 		  Quote Autie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2011 at 07:50
Originally posted by Nick1986

While the Indians did raid other tribes and even massacre women and children, such actions were generally small-scale until the white man provided them with firearms. While i've always been a big fan of old Westerns, i quickly began wondering what the white settlers were doing in Indian territory in the first place, and why it was acceptable for Americans to kill the natives and force them off their land
 
Agreed...as a child I felt the same about taking over Indian lands. As I grew older and realized that even before America...Euorpe had these land wars for thousands of years. Many, many, people died in this process and typically by those who had become advanced in technology (better weapons) won these wars.
 
It doesn't make it right, but it is reality.
“[I have] too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders...” - Terry to Custer
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Posts: 1188 		  Quote tjadams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2011 at 22:56
Solid points Nick.
The very real and fierce Comanche Indians were not much till they acquired the
horse and white man firepower. They moved south, into Texas for one, and drove
out other tribes.
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2011 at 19:08
While the Indians did raid other tribes and even massacre women and children, such actions were generally small-scale until the white man provided them with firearms. While i've always been a big fan of old Westerns, i quickly began wondering what the white settlers were doing in Indian territory in the first place, and why it was acceptable for Americans to kill the natives and force them off their land
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Posts: 55 		  Quote Autie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2011 at 21:19
Originally posted by lirelou

Considering that the Indian policy of the United States was not their eradication, but rather to remove them from areas adjacent to settlers and eventually assimilate them into American society, I fail to see how the charge of genocide can be maintained, except in so loose a sense as to deny the term and real meaning. Custer was a warrior, and no less bloodthirsty than any of his opponents, whose very society rested upon making war against weaker peoples, and defending against the stronger. Used in the context of the Indian Wars, genocide becomes just another word. 
 
Well said. Prior to any Europeans making it across the pond, the Indians were not just keeping to their own lands. They fought, killed, and died in tribe vs tribe warfare. They kidnapped each others women, stole possessions, and took over land. They attacked each others villages that contained women and children and I am sure women and children were sometimes killed in these attacks. The US Army did not, and especially not Custer himself, invent the concept of attacking an indian village.
“[I have] too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders...” - Terry to Custer
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Posts: 55 		  Quote Autie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2011 at 21:06
Thanks Uncle! Great to be posting in a forum that you are associated with.
 
During his day Custer was a hero. His ACW record was outstanding and it really is too bad that he is only remebered for LBH.
 
What's ironic is that by sticking up for Native Americans against the US Government, he almost didn't go on the 1876 Campaign. And, when blamed for attacking a day early, the Terry/Gibbion column was a day late...I guess they should have sent each other a text...lol
 
Like at Last Stand Hill, I too am in a no win situation. It has taken me awhile, but I understand where others are coming from on their perception of GAC. It's years and years of PC that has made his image what is today. Even McDonalds took all kinds of static by producing a Custer toy from Night at the Museum movie...and that movie was making fun of GAC. The haters don't even know enough to be pleased...they are just too happy to hate.
 
“[I have] too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders...” - Terry to Custer
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Posts: 337 		  Quote unclefred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2011 at 14:52
Hi Autie, nice to see you posting here!
 
An interesting article from Historynet:
 
One controversial notion should be put aside right away: that the Plains Indians at the Little Bighorn were defending their homeland. That is a myth. When Custer surprised the Sioux and Cheyennes village, he was not attacking peace-loving defenders. The Little Bighorn Valley is part of the Crow Indians traditional homeland, and the Sioux had driven the Crows from it. Back on March 10, 1876, Indian agent Dexter Clapp of the Crow Agency in Montana said that the Sioux are now occupying the eastern and best portion of their reservation and by their constant warfare paralyzing all efforts to induce the Crows to undertake agriculture or other means of self support, and added that the Crows expect the Sioux to attack this agency and themselves in large force. Other tribes such as the Shoshones, Blackfeet and Arikaras were also victims of Sioux raids and war making. The proud warrior culture of the Plains Indians was one reason that disenchanted Sioux warriors and their allies left their reservations in 1876 to join the influential medicine man Sitting Bull, who had never signed a treaty with the United States. Another reason was that the government was not fulfilling treaty obligations, which was something Custer had pointed out when summoned to Washington. In any case, the Indians defiance meant war.
 
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Posts: 337 		  Quote unclefred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2011 at 14:41
Originally posted by Nick1986

I've always viewed Custer as a bloodthirsty murderer and willing participant in America's genocide of the Indians. At Little Big Horn he deliberately attacked the village where the women and children were
There were solid tactical reasons for seizing a village in fighting the plains Indians, it had nothing to do with women and children:
 
 "As far as his strategy was concerned in the past when confronting Indians they avoided direct engagements with Army troops. The Indians would scatter in several different directions making the pursuers waste their time chasing smaller elements. Custer's tactic was to hit a village at dawn from three sides blocking any escape. This tactic was successful at the Washita river engagement in 1868. This is the manner it which he attacked the village at the Little Big Horn".

Custer had planned to wait until dawn to strike the Indian camp on the 26th. However, word had arrived that the command may have been discovered and the secrecy blown. Thus Custer to prevent the Indian camp from breaking up and scattering ordered the 7th Cavalry to prepare to attack the camp immediately.

Prior to the attack Custer divided his command into 4 elements. One element was a company securing the pack train; one battalion under Captain Frederick Benteen and a battalion commanded by Major Marcus Reno. The last battalion was commanded by Custer personally.

Custer sent Benteen to scout around to the rear of the village. Reno's command would directly assault the village and Custer's command would support him. The last time Custer was seen alive was when he was seen Reno's battalion as they advanced to the Indian camp.

Unfortunately, Reno's assault on the village faltered almost immediately. Rather than charge the village he threw out a skirmish line. This allowed the Indians time to regroup and attack Reno's men. Reno panicked and gave several quick contradictory orders. Thus followed a route to escape from the Indians which the Indians later characterized as a "buffalo hunt." Reno finally secured a fighting position on the bluffs and stayed there surrounded by the Indians.

Custer it appears attempted to find areas to cross the big horn river and out flank the village. At some point Custer sent a message to Benteen via one of his orderlies who could barely speak English. The message stated "Come on. Be quick. Big Village. Bring Packs. Custer P/S Bring Packs!" Instead of immediately rushing to Custer's support Benteen slowly turned his command around and even halted his command to allow the horses to drink.

Benteen next found Reno's besieged command and rather obey his orders joined Reno in his positions. Meanwhile Custer was forced on to the defensive and wiped out.

Thus, Custer's attack at the Little Big Horn can be seen as something much more than as a reckless attack against superior numbers.

http://www.davidstuff.com/historical/custer.htm

 
 
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