Was there a genocide in 1915?

[QUOTE=ArmenianSurvival]
Yes, there were some Armenian guerillas that killed innocent Turks. This was after the Armenian massacres had started. The Armenian guerillas were independent of any government, while Turkish massacres of Armenians were government planned. Thats the definition of genocide. No one is denying that some Armenians killed Turks, so likewise you should stop denying your nations faults.

Yes, there were some Armenian guerillas that killed innocent Turks. This were before the Armenian exile  had started. And no Goverment didnt killed armenians(Infact you have not a genocide order,  and Young Turks are not like hitler, They dont hate armenians)  but Some Turks and Kurds killer armenians. Do you claim Young Turks hate Armenians? Or do you claim young Turks want to kill all Armenians?


I am always ready to admit when my country is at fault. Yes, i know Armenian guerillas killed innocent Turks during the genocide, and likewise some soldiers in the Karabagh war killed innocent Turks when they found out that the Turks killed innocent Armenians. The Armenians only became violent after they saw what Turks had done to their people. Does this mean we should not get some blame? No, you can blame us all you want. But you must acknowledge that our actions are retaliation to your governments atrocities towards our people.

That is exactly what we  claim abouts the genocide too.So  what?

In around 1920, the Armenian population of Karabagh was over 90%. After Moscow granted Karabagh to Azerbaijan, the government started moving in their own people. Then in the 80's when the Armenians in Karabagh wanted to be part of the Republic of Armenia, the Azeris started taking out Armenians in Baku and Khojaly. When the war started, the Armenian population in Karabagh was still over 75%. So i dont get your argument, im trying to understand it but nothing jumps out as valid.

How many Armenian live in Karabagh?

Originally posted by Murtaza Yes, there were some Armenian guerillas that killed innocent Turks. This were before the Armenian exile  had started. And no Goverment didnt killed armenians(Infact you have not a genocide order,  and Young Turks are not like hitler, They dont hate armenians)  but Some Turks and Kurds killer armenians. Do you claim Young Turks hate Armenians? Or do you claim young Turks want to kill all Armenians?

Armenian guerillas killed innocent Turks mostly after the 1915 massacres. The ones that did it before were retaliating because of the 1895-1896 massacres of Sultan Abdul-Hamid, in which about 150,000 Armenians died. And yes, the Young Turks did want to kill all Armenians. They were a secularist regime who showed extreme nationalism and Pan-Turkic ideals, wanting to unite all branches of their race. That is why they chose to head east towards Armenia. They cover that up by saying "Armenians in our own army are going to join the Russians". Ya, Armenians fighting on the western front against the allied forces are really going to walk east and join Russia. Smart. So they disarmed Armenian soldiers and deported woman and children, because for some reason, the Ottomans were afraid of Armenian women and children. After all, they might take up arms and join the Russians, lol.

Originally posted by Murtaza How many Armenian live in Karabagh?

About 150,000. And their army defeated Azerbaijan, a nation of 8.2 million people. Im sorry, but even as a Turk, you should acknowledge the bravery it takes to do that. That kind of bravery transcends ethnic lines.

Originally posted by akyncy so you are claiming that you were massackered twice?

Azeris killed Armenians in Baku and Khojaly before the war began. The Armenians only went to war after these events. If you start killing off random people of a nation, you should prepare for war. Armenians did not want a war, they were at a severe disadvantage heading into that war (Azeris had better technology, much more firearms, double the number of our soldiers, planes and tanks while Armenians had none, and Azeris were gaurding cities that sit on mountains). The Armenians mustve had a damn good reason to go to war, and that was one of the main reasons. You cant tell me the Armenians started a war when they were at that much of a disadvantage.

Edited by ArmenianSurvival

About 150,000. And their army defeated Azerbaijan, a nation of 8.2 million people. Im sorry, but even as a Turk, you should acknowledge the bravery it takes to do that. That kind of bravery transcends ethnic lines.

I know i know.Bullets jumping off your chest ain't it?so what,Israel's population was far less than the arabs...........

ok let's say that azeris put two million troops;

every ssingle armenian there had to kill like more than ten soldiers

that sucks

Originally posted by akyncy that is completely wrong,wrong,wrong! and where is your proof?

Well, proof of deportation and exile are not needed, everyone knows the Ottoman empire marched Armenian women and children through deserts. There are Ottoman documents to prove that. The only thing that lacks proof is the Ottoman Empire's REASON for deporting Armenian women and children. A valid reason has yet to be seen.

A. The Armenians took arms against their own government. Their violent political aims, not their race, ethnicity or religion, rendered them subject to relocation.

Armenian Americans ignore the dire circumstances that precipitated the enactment of a measure as drastic as mass relocation. Armenians cooperated with Russian invaders of Eastern Anatolia in wars in 1828, 1854, and 1877. Between 1893 and 1915 Ottoman Armenians in eastern Anatolia rebelled against their government -- the Ottoman government -- and joined Armenian revolutionary groups, such as the notorious Dashnaks and Hunchaks. They armed themselves and spearheaded a massive Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia. On November 5, 1914, the President of the Armenian National Bureau in Tblisi declared to Czar Nicholas II, "From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks for the glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian arms. � Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus." Armenian treason is also plainly documented in the November 1914 issue of the Hunchak Armenian [Revolutionary] Gazette, published in Paris. In a call to arms it exhorted,

"The entire Armenian Nation will join forces -- moral and material, and waving the sword of Revolution, will enter this World conflict ... as comrades in arms of the Triple Entente, and particularly Russia. They will cooperate with the Allies, making full use of all political and revolutionary means for the final victory...."

Boghos Nubar addressed a letter to the Times of London on January 30, 1919 confirming that the Armenians were indeed belligerents in World War I. He stated with pride,

"In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks...."

One of those who answered the Armenian call to arms was Gourgen Yanikian who, as a teenager, joined the Russians to fight the Ottoman government, and who as an elderly man, on January 27, 1973, assassinated two Turkish diplomats in Santa Barbara, California.

Maybe This can be reason.

http://www.turkishembassy.org/governmentpolitics/issuesarmen ian.htm#fact2

 

 

How many Azeris lived in karabagh?

Realy? what is proof of this words?

 

A good starting point would be the German general Liman von Sanders.

Then you could always read a bit of US Ambassador Morgenthau's reports.

Some quotes:

"Since Germany, however, had her own plans for Asia Minor, inevitably the Greeks in this region formed a barrier to Pan-German aspirations. As long as this region remained Greek, it formed a natural obstacle to Germany's road to the Persian Gulf, precisely as did Serbia."

"The violent shifting of whole peoples from one part of Europe to another, as though they were so many herds of cattle, has for years been part of the Kaiser's plans for German expansion. This is the treatment which, since the war began, she has applied to Belgium, to Poland, to Serbia; its most hideous manifestation, as I shall show, has been to Armenia. Acting under Germany's prompting, Turkey now began to apply this principle of deportation to her Greek subjects in Asia Minor. Three years afterward the German admiral, Usedom, who had been stationed in the Dardanelles during the bombardment, told me that it was the Germans "who urgently made the suggestion that the Greeks be moved from the seashore." The German motive, Admiral Usedom said, was purely military. Whether Talaat and his associates realized that they were playing the German game I am not sure, but there is no doubt that the Germans were constantly instigating them in this congenial task."

"The events that followed foreshadowed the policy adopted in' the Armenian massacres. The Turkish officials pounced upon the Greeks, herded them in groups and marched them toward the ships. They gave them no time to settle their private affairs, and they took no pains to keep families together. The plan was to transport the Greeks to the wholly Greek islands in the Aegean. Naturally the Greeks rebelled against such treatment, and occasional massacres were the result, especially in Phocaea, where more than fifty people were murdered. The Turks demanded that all foreign establishments in Smyrna dismiss their Greek employees and replace them with Moslems."

"I looked upon them merely as an outburst of Turkish ferocity and chauvinism. By this time I knew Talaat well; I saw him nearly every day, and he used to discuss practically every phase of international relations with me. I objected vigorously to his treatment of the Greeks; I told him that it would make the worst possible impression abroad and that it affected American interests. Talaat explained his national policy: these different blocs in the Turkish Empire, he said, had always conspired against Turkey; because of the hostility of these native populations, Turkey had lost province after province---Greece, Serbia, Rumania, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Egypt, and Tripoli. In this way the Turkish Empire had dwindled almost to the vanishing point. If what was left of Turkey was to survive, added Talaat, he must get rid of these alien peoples. "Turkey for the Turks " was now Talaat's controlling idea."

"The Turks knew that these deportations would precipitate a war with Greece; in fact, they welcomed such a war and were preparing for it. So enthusiastic were the Turkish people that they had raised money by popular subscription and bad purchased a Brazilian dreadnaught which was then under construction in England. The government had ordered also a second dreadnaught in England, and several submarines and destroyers in France. The purpose of these naval preparations was no secret in Constantinople. As soon as they obtained these ships, or even the one dreadnaught which was nearing completion, Turkey intended to attack Greece and take back the islands."

A lot more at :
http://www.cilicia.com/morgenthau

ArmenianSurvival

Good point, So have any proof for Genocide?

As I know you have much real proof.

 

The proof of genocide belongs to every major world government

Interesting proof, But I am sure you will understand If I dont accept this proof.

well It is something with related our country. Some love ottomans and some dont love it. I think you always thinking us, A bunch of people who brainwashed by goverment. And All of us think same. No, some of us hate ottomans. They think they destroyed Turks. Ottoman empire dont call itself as a Turk. So they dont call it as a Turk too. Ultranationalist and UltraKemalist and other people dont accept ottoman as a Turk Empire.

The other point (this is political not historical) Turkey is a new country and have no relation with ottomans.