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Who is the greatest military leader of the medieval period?

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Poll Question: Who is the greatest military leader of the medieval period?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
48 [27.12%]
22 [12.43%]
1 [0.56%]
5 [2.82%]
4 [2.26%]
12 [6.78%]
17 [9.60%]
26 [14.69%]
19 [10.73%]
23 [12.99%]
You can not vote in this poll

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Iranian41ife View Drop Down
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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who is the greatest military leader of the medieval period?
    Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 16:26

you have a real supremacist problem man.

ottomans got defeated more than once, and by many people. live with it.

if the romans could be defeated by the germanic tribes, then the ottomans could be defeated by the albanians.

if the US could be be by the vietnamese, the ottomans could be beat by the albanians.

your, nor your people, are any better than the rest of us.

whether the 300,000 number is correct or not, you have no right to say that they could never defeat the ottoman army. history has proven that these events can happen.

 



Edited by prsn41ife
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Emperor Barbarossa View Drop Down
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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 21:14
Originally posted by prsn41ife

you have a real supremacist problem man.

ottomans got defeated more than once, and by many people. live with it.

if the romans could be defeated by the germanic tribes, then the ottomans could be defeated by the albanians.

if the US could be be by the vietnamese, the ottomans could be beat by the albanians.

your, nor your people, are any better than the rest of us.

whether the 300,000 number is correct or not, you have no right to say that they could never defeat the ottoman army. history has proven that these events can happen.

 


I basically agree with you, but a 300,000 man army(which was definitely not how big it was) would be practically impossible to beat. However, I agree that the Turks have had their fair share of losses.

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  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 22:12
The US was not defeated by the Vietnamese. It was a stalemate
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  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 06:48
Originally posted by prsn41ife

you have a real supremacist problem man.

ottomans got defeated more than once, and by many people. live with it.

if the romans could be defeated by the germanic tribes, then the ottomans could be defeated by the albanians.

if the US could be be by the vietnamese, the ottomans could be beat by the albanians.

your, nor your people, are any better than the rest of us.

whether the 300,000 number is correct or not, you have no right to say that they could never defeat the ottoman army. history has proven that these events can happen.

 

Yes ottomans are defeated many times and because of this I like history, that makes history interesting. 

I am not saying that albanians cant defeat ottomans, as they defeated. Defeating 300000 ottomans is impossible, because there isnt 300000 ottoman soldier until the world war I.  You are right the romans are defeated by germanic tribes, usa defeated by vietnameese but saying 18000 german defeated 300000 romans is ridicolous, as the same for USA. So my answer is to numbers , I am not a defender of "ottoman is undefeatable"

It is a fashion to exxagrate the number of ottoman army and their casualties. And I am against to this.

My estimated numbers are much more near to the real numbers, again I say that ottoman army was bigger, so what is the problem with this?

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  Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 08:17
I voted for Genghis.
I think that the Mongol army he created was an army ahead of his time.
An army similar in many aspects to modern armies-manuevers,battleplans,good use of artillery(trebuchets,catapults) etc.



Edited by RomiosArktos
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  Quote Bashibozuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2006 at 10:57

What about Atabeg Zengi? Or Nureddin Zengi, the teacher of Salahaddin, and the master of Shirkuh, the Turkish ruler of Northern Iraq (and later until Diyarbakir, Mardin and Urfa (Edessa)), as he conquered Edessa from crusaders and conquered Diyarbakir from Artukid Turks.

Tughtegin was also a real hero. He was the leader of Atabeg of Bri (Atabeg of Damascus), inheritor of Seljuks of Syria. lghzi and Dilmachoglu Toghan Arslan were also glorious Turkish Seljuk commanders, who have achieved many victories against the crusader forces.

But my favourite leader of early Medieval period is II. Kilich Arslan, who was the sultan of Seljuks of Rm (Anatolia). He defeated Byzanthine emperor Manuel near Konya at 1145. He defeated the second crusades, conquered western Anatolia and reconquered southern Turkey (Cilicia) from crusader state.



Edited by Bashibozuk
Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar,
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Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar,
Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben.
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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2006 at 11:05
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

Originally posted by prsn41ife

you have a real supremacist problem man.

ottomans got defeated more than once, and by many people. live with it.

if the romans could be defeated by the germanic tribes, then the ottomans could be defeated by the albanians.

if the US could be be by the vietnamese, the ottomans could be beat by the albanians.

your, nor your people, are any better than the rest of us.

whether the 300,000 number is correct or not, you have no right to say that they could never defeat the ottoman army. history has proven that these events can happen.

 

Yes ottomans are defeated many times and because of this I like history, that makes history interesting. 

I am not saying that albanians cant defeat ottomans, as they defeated. Defeating 300000 ottomans is impossible, because there isnt 300000 ottoman soldier until the world war I.  You are right the romans are defeated by germanic tribes, usa defeated by vietnameese but saying 18000 german defeated 300000 romans is ridicolous, as the same for USA. So my answer is to numbers , I am not a defender of "ottoman is undefeatable"

It is a fashion to exxagrate the number of ottoman army and their casualties. And I am against to this.

My estimated numbers are much more near to the real numbers, again I say that ottoman army was bigger, so what is the problem with this?


Yes, I agree with you. I did not think you were being an extreme nationalist, but just saying the facts.

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R_AK47 View Drop Down
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  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 13:14

I can't believe more people voted for Saladin then Richard.  Richard smashed Saladin constantly in battle (he never lost), but Saladin gets more votes?

Genghis Khan probably deserves more votes than he was given as well.  No one else on the list conquered nearly as much territory as he did.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2006 at 10:17
Originally posted by YAFES

How about 300.000 Celtic civillians Caesar murdered???

Oh it's not terrorism, it's only the greatness of Rome

 

That's an major error of count :

The only repression after the war for freedom in -52 did a MILLION deads over a population of 4 millions (counting only the rebel tribes).

The global "Gallic wars" (10years) did about 2 millions deads over a population of 8 millions (including celtic tribes of belgium and low countries)

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  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2006 at 21:16
I'm suprised Richard the Lionheart hasn't recieved more votes.  He was a great leader.  Genghis Khan deserves more votes as well, he was much greater than Attila the Hun but is only two votes ahead of him at the moment.  Actually, almost all the people on this list were great leaders, except for Saladin, who was not great at all (as I've explained in other threads).  Saladin should be removed from the list.
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  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2006 at 21:18

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Belisarius was an incredibly loyal general who followed his Emperor's orders practically to the letter. We know he was not disgraced because his statues were not torn down, they remained standing at the time of the Fourth Crusade. Had he really fallen out of favour the statues and ceremonial decorations of him would most definitely have been removed.

Procopius of Caesarea is the historian you are referring to and indeed Belisarius was an innovative and adaptable commander.

Does anyone know where these statues of Belisarius are now?  I would very much like know the current locations of them.

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 01:51
Originally posted by R_AK47

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Belisarius was an incredibly loyal general who followed his Emperor's orders practically to the letter. We know he was not disgraced because his statues were not torn down, they remained standing at the time of the Fourth Crusade. Had he really fallen out of favour the statues and ceremonial decorations of him would most definitely have been removed.

Procopius of Caesarea is the historian you are referring to and indeed Belisarius was an innovative and adaptable commander.

Does anyone know where these statues of Belisarius are now?  I would very much like know the current locations of them.



Niketas Choniates, a Byzantine minister of state, records with copious tears that your beloved Crusaders melted down nearly every statue in Constantinople after they took it to raise cash from selling the metal. They didn't care much for things like art, culture or high civilization. I will say with almost total certainty that that's what became of that noble general's statues.


Edited by Constantine XI
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  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 09:49
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by R_AK47

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Belisarius was an incredibly loyal general who followed his Emperor's orders practically to the letter. We know he was not disgraced because his statues were not torn down, they remained standing at the time of the Fourth Crusade. Had he really fallen out of favour the statues and ceremonial decorations of him would most definitely have been removed.

Procopius of Caesarea is the historian you are referring to and indeed Belisarius was an innovative and adaptable commander.

Does anyone know where these statues of Belisarius are now?  I would very much like know the current locations of them.



Niketas Choniates, a Byzantine minister of state, records with copious tears that your beloved Crusaders melted down nearly every statue in Constantinople after they took it to raise cash from selling the metal. They didn't care much for things like art, culture or high civilization. I will say with almost total certainty that that's what became of that noble general's statues.

That is regrettable.  However, it was the Turks that destroyed the great statue of Justinian on horseback that used to be located outside Hagia Sophia.

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 16:13
Originally posted by Constantine XI



Niketas Choniates, a Byzantine minister of state, records with copious
tears that your beloved Crusaders melted down nearly every statue in
Constantinople after they took it to raise cash from selling the metal.
They didn't care much for things like art, culture or high
civilization. I will say with almost total certainty that that's what
became of that noble general's statues.


"You took the cross upon your shoulders, and on that Cross and on the Holy Gospels you swore that you pass over Christian lands without violence, turning neither right nor to left. You assured us that your only enemy was the Saracen, and that his blood only would be shed...Far from carrying the Cross, you profane it and trample it underfoot. You claim to be in quest of a pearl beyond price, but in truth you fling that most precious of all pearls, which is the body of our Saviour, into the mud. The Saracens themselves show less impiety."

- Nicetas Choniates, Alexios Ducas (IV, 4), on the sacking of Constantinople by the Latin crusaders in 1204, as quoted in "Baudolino" by Umberto Eco.
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 16:36

Bloody popes.

"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 00:40
Originally posted by R_AK47

That is regrettable.  However, it was the Turks that destroyed the great statue of Justinian on horseback that used to be located outside Hagia Sophia.

I have never heard a direct reference of the statue of Justinian being destroyed by the Turks, where is your reference for this.

I read Choniates' work a while ago and he gives a disturbingly long and detailed list of the fine workmanship the crusaders melted down to raise some cash. It wasn't regrettable, it was an outrage and a tragedy for civilization. No better than a pack of glorified thugs and thieves were those men who took the cross.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 07:30

I think that Henry V of England should have been included on the poll, and not just for the Battle of Agincourt. Henry's invasion of Normandy in 1415 ws remarkably well organised, so much so that he was able to conquer the rich duchy and use its resources to bring the French crown to its knees. This success secured Henry a settlement whereby he became the heir to the crown of France. Had he not died on campaign England would surely have gone on to win the Hundred Years War. Henry was a remarkable leader and organiser, deserving of recognition.

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  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 13:48
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by R_AK47

That is regrettable.  However, it was the Turks that destroyed the great statue of Justinian on horseback that used to be located outside Hagia Sophia.

I have never heard a direct reference of the statue of Justinian being destroyed by the Turks, where is your reference for this.

I read Choniates' work a while ago and he gives a disturbingly long and detailed list of the fine workmanship the crusaders melted down to raise some cash. It wasn't regrettable, it was an outrage and a tragedy for civilization. No better than a pack of glorified thugs and thieves were those men who took the cross.

I have no reference regarding Turkish destruction of the statue, but we know that it was still standing when Constantinople fell in 1453 (many mistakenly believed it to be a statue of Constantine I).  We also know that the statue is no longer there or anywhere else that we know of.  Since the Turks controlled the city after 1453, when the statue was last recoreded, and have controlled it to the present day, they must be responsible for whatever happened to it.  I presume they therefore destroyed this great, ancient piece of artwork, along with many other items (you should read what they did when they entered the Chora Church after entering the city, it is also very disturbing).



Edited by R_AK47
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 18:25
Originally posted by R_AK47

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by R_AK47

That is regrettable.  However, it was the Turks that destroyed the great statue of Justinian on horseback that used to be located outside Hagia Sophia.

I have never heard a direct reference of the statue of Justinian being destroyed by the Turks, where is your reference for this.

I read Choniates' work a while ago and he gives a disturbingly long and detailed list of the fine workmanship the crusaders melted down to raise some cash. It wasn't regrettable, it was an outrage and a tragedy for civilization. No better than a pack of glorified thugs and thieves were those men who took the cross.

I have no reference regarding Turkish destruction of the statue, but we know that it was still standing when Constantinople fell in 1453 (many mistakenly believed it to be a statue of Constantine I).  We also know that the statue is no longer there or anywhere else that we know of.  Since the Turks controlled the city after 1453, when the statue was last recoreded, and have controlled it to the present day, they must be responsible for whatever happened to it.  I presume they therefore destroyed this great, ancient piece of artwork, along with many other items (you should read what they did when they entered the Chora Church after entering the city, it is also very disturbing).



We don't all know that the statue was still standing in 1453, I have never read that written anywhere. I have, however, read an eyewitness account of it still standing in 1204. This is given in the account of Robert of Clari, an ordinary soldier in the crusder host. He incorrectly calls it the "state of Heraclius", though it was actually that of Justinian. After that I do not see it mentioned, and given Nicetas Choniates account I am prepared to accept that the statues of Justinian went the way of all the other statues and were melted down by the rapacious crusders. They even took copper from the roof of the Haghia Sophia to be melted down. They left the city a ruin of itself and pathetically impoverished, why should we assume without evidence they would not do the same to Justinian's statues what they did to virtually everything else?

If you can provide an actual source with a reliable author which can prove Justinian's statues were still standing in 1453, then do so.


Edited by Constantine XI
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  Quote bleda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 18:51

amir timur for me

 

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