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religion is the problem

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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: religion is the problem
    Posted: 30-Mar-2011 at 12:02
In another forum someone made me glaringly aware of two strong Christian movements, that  are part of the Christian opposition to democracy, which is just as bad as any Muslim opposition to democracy.  

The first is the Christian attack on John Rockefeller and John Dewey and the change in education they brought about.  The second is the 1952 ,cold war, Christian inspired opposition to communism (those godless people) and again an attack on the evil Rockefeller Foundation.   These Christian attacks are being picked up the young who do not know the religious motivation behind them,  but think they are attacks on those terrible rich people who are out of oppress and exploit us.  

Sorry I am in a rush and don't have time at the moment to explain more fully.   Just know there is a big problem with both Christianity and Islam and it is really stupid for these groups to think they are opposed to each other.   The same fears that Muslims can't manage democracy are true of Christians.    If we want to defend democracy, we must be aware of organized religious efforts that are harmful to democracy, and be aware of the passing of  harmful arguments by those who are ignorant of the religious bases of them, and mistakeningly think these attacks are on rich industrialist who are out to exploit us.  

Paranoia can be a national problem, and sometimes a nation needs psycho analysis as badly as paranoid individuals.



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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2011 at 12:15
People are always blaming the wrong element, religion. Religion is definitely not the cause of the oppression of democracy. Religion is an ideology that is constantly being twisted around by people in order to gain some form of power and control over others and to lobby for personal causes. Religion never killed anyone and never oppressed anyone. There are greedy and perverse people out there who would use anything if it satisfied their objectives, and does not only include religion.

These movements are nothing but a testament to how religion can be distorted out of context and used for causes that frankly, have nothing to do with faith to begin with. Let alone the fact that there are so many different sects out there. Human corruption, that's all it is.
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  Quote unclefred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2011 at 12:32
    Thank you Christians for opposing the bloody, tyranny of  communism. I thank Islam as well.     

Edited by unclefred - 30-Mar-2011 at 16:24
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2011 at 14:49
Originally posted by Baal Melqart

People are always blaming the wrong element, religion. Religion is definitely not the cause of the oppression of democracy. Religion is an ideology that is constantly being twisted around by people in order to gain some form of power and control over others and to lobby for personal causes. Religion never killed anyone and never oppressed anyone. There are greedy and perverse people out there who would use anything if it satisfied their objectives, and does not only include religion.

These movements are nothing but a testament to how religion can be distorted out of context and used for causes that frankly, have nothing to do with faith to begin with. Let alone the fact that there are so many different sects out there. Human corruption, that's all it is.
 
Human Corruption viz self interest and then 'supposed' communal interest......religion, ntl has been a handy tool for oppression if not necessarily towards democracy.....and that simply thru forced acceptance and practice....in many cases. But it dealing with that... one must deal contextually as to the root cause why. Probably, because of the power that religion can offer to a leader-base, religious or non, over those who were in no position to confront the authority in the first place and yet all to often see their theological practices as a means of relief from the oppression of the leader. Which then equally might be and usual is challenged by the power base. The record is replete with examples. Secular progressives in the US are a good example.
 
But is it ie. Religion.... perse the 'devil in the deep blue sea' and can one lay the alleged crime at the feet of a specific theology-doctrine or denomination.... as the prime cause and motivator? No. I don't believe I can. But it can be and has been manipulated by many to seek and maintain power. In that as I noted it has been and still is a powerful tool.
 
As noted...by Baal, in the end the concepts of theology and Political identification and expression to include disputes, escalation and violence, coupled with human corruption and individual self-interest while inter-related; are not synonomous.
 
Thanks


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 30-Mar-2011 at 17:54
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2011 at 17:49
I think that this is mainly what ahs driven the separation of the church and state after the medieval era. It is the idea that man can have faith in God and pray to God in the confines of his home. He is not obligated to seek penance or any sort of favour from men of cloth since religion is in man, not the establishment.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2011 at 18:41
It's an apt point.... but more specifically... imo... that which drove the division was the 'age of enlightenment' subsequent civil reaction both affirmative and negative.. and the advent of socialist and marxist ideologies. And to a lesser degree the ongoing nationalism by varying states as they reacted to the aforementioned.
 
Just a thought.
 
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2011 at 16:12
The reason religion is the problem is it stands in the way of truth.   When people believe a lie, that lie prevents them from knowing truth.  If they question what they believe to be true, than there is a chance they will realize what they believe isn't true, and then will seek truth.  People seriously are not going to do this when the lie gives them great comfort, gives them a sense of security, and a sense of self worth, and may be even a sense of superiority.   This is the case for all religions that are suppose to be God's truth, presented to select people.   To believe these religions are God's truth, we have to believe God gave His special of message of truth to Moses, and whoever else the holy books tell us got a special message from God.   Really?  Does God have favorites?  Is he going speak to some people and not everyone?  I don't think so.  

Most important is our belief about why things happen.   Christian Europe was very resistant to the medicine that was advanced by Arabs and Muslims.  In their belief system it, was demons that made people sick, and those heathens who made it necessary to fight the crusades, so the land could be returned to God's chosen people, were practicing the Black arts.   The Christians with their superstitions even turned on the Jews who had some rudimentary knowledge of healing of herbs, and an understanding that it is unclean things that make us sick.  These Jews often fell victim of the witch hunts, because the superstitious notions of Christianity.   Or worse, the need for sanitation was rejected for a hundred years after science realized the importance, and thousands died because of superstition and ignorance. Let me be very clear on this.  The religion promoted an incorrect reasoning and understanding of illness and medicine, other people, and morals. 

Now let us jump forward to the present, and things like, not taking the oil shortage seriously, but instead griping about those greedy people who keep rising the price of oil, and ignoring why the US has been so militarily involved in the mid east, and has such a  huge national debt.  Disapprove God blessed us with everything, and if there is a problem it is not about us right, not our consumption, or thing like that, but those people who think they know God but do not, or those greedy people, or Satan.   Or if you are the other side of the argument, it is those evil people from the west, etc.  and we all know, the holy books speak of such times, and there is a being of evil, and the will of God.  We still are not being realistic and handling things scientifically and logically.

We have three stories, the the Jewish one, the Christian one, and the Muslim one, and while these folks are arguing and fighting with each other, we are not paying attention to the scientific understanding of reality, and we are not using reason, and virtues like justice, to resolve the problems that we face.   A superstitious lie is standing the place of truth and justice.


Edited by Athena - 07-Apr-2011 at 16:22
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  Quote Arab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2011 at 16:48
Originally posted by Baal Melqart

People are always blaming the wrong element, religion. Religion is definitely not the cause of the oppression of democracy. Religion is an ideology that is constantly being twisted around by people in order to gain some form of power and control over others and to lobby for personal causes. Religion never killed anyone and never oppressed anyone. There are greedy and perverse people out there who would use anything if it satisfied their objectives, and does not only include religion.
 
I agree with the notion that religion today is merely a tool used to control the masses. It is truly a shame that most religions began as nonviolence movements but were corrupted to suit the needs of states. For example, Christianity was originally completely opposed to violence. But when Constantine the Great became a Christian and painted the cross on his soldiers' shields, establishing it as the state religion of the Roman empire, violence in the name of killing nonbelievers suddenly became acceptable. Previous to this the symbol of Christianity was a fish, not the cross which symbolizes violence.
 
Originally posted by Athena

Now let us jump forward to the present, and things like, not taking the oil shortage seriously, but instead griping about those greedy people who keep rising the price of oil, and ignoring why the US has been so militarily involved in the mid east, and has such a  huge national debt.  Disapprove God blessed us with everything, and if there is a problem it is not about us right, not our consumption, or thing like that, but those people who think they know God but do not, or those greedy people, or Satan.   Or if you are the other side of the argument, it is those evil people from the west, etc.  and we all know, the holy books speak of such times, and there is a being of evil, and the will of God.  We still are not being realistic and handling things scientifically and logically.
 
True, religion today is basically "if you're on our side you're with God, if you're on their side you're with Satan". Leaders will not hesitate to use religion to their advantage. In my personal opinion religion is an antiquated concept anyway, and is holding us back scientifically to some extent.
"Prayer is when you talk to God. Insanity is when you talk to God and he answers back."
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 02:41
Arab, I like your observation about the Christian symbol going from the fish to the cross, the universal symbol of death.   Christianity became popular in part because of the Christian martyrs, and we make fun of Muslims for believing if the die while fighting for Allah, they will be rewarded.   Religion is good for war and war is good for religion. 

In the mean time, what should we do about our denial of life on a finite planet, and that as the US consumes the lions share of everything, pushing the rest of the world into desperate poverty.   There is no way the whole the world can live at the standard of living the US has enjoyed, and as more countries do gain the ability to compete with the US for resources, well that is what military is all about isn't it?   Is this just?   

Seriously is this the work of God or man made problems that we need to work through?


Edited by Athena - 08-Apr-2011 at 02:45
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 10:38
Originally posted by Athena

    A superstitious lie is standing the place of truth and justice.
 
Pol Pot, Mao Tse Sung, and Joseph Stalin also came to the same conclusion.  What do you propose to replace this "lie" with?  Pol Pot for example, replaced the "lie" with an invented humanisistic ideaology that led to the killing fields.  It appears that that humanism is just as dangerous as religion. For me, I"ll take Abrahamic religion rather than gamble with humanism or undefined appeals to "logic or "justice". 
Originally posted by Athena

  We still are not being realistic and handling things scientifically and logically.
And how does one manage a global economy "realisticaly" and "logically"?   Communism, the last humanistic experiment, did not work.   In the end, I dont think humanistst are any more likely to be "logical" than theists. 
Originally posted by Athena

The first is the Christian attack on John Rockefeller and John Dewey and the change in education they brought about.  The second is the 1952 ,cold war, Christian inspired opposition to communism (those godless people)
I dont see the christian conspiracy here. The exportation of communism, including the policies of enforced or coerced atheism was a communist goal.  Why is it strange that another group who disagreed with this, say Christians, would actively oppose communism?    


Edited by Cryptic - 08-Apr-2011 at 10:53
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 11:43
How to determine truth?  That is science.  Science does make errors, but it remains open to being corrected.   Science may not have given us immortality, but it has a least doubled our life expectancy.  That means a lot of long lived people and this means a change in our consciousness.  Our awareness of ourselves and others, is definitely different at age 60.  The benefits of this are improved if the culture promotes life long learning.  Maybe the young who want adventure and to test themselves more than anything else, would choose Europe in the Middle ages over science we have today.   In the middle ages, superstition, and the church, very much stood in the way of science. 

Obviously we need something besides religion.   That is where culture comes in.  Liberal education advanced an excellent culture and is essential to liberty.   Christianity, without liberal education, is not so great, but it what Germany had.   You know, those folks we fought we in two world wars.  

While most civilizations have relied on religion for culture, this is not the only factor of culture.  Christianity has changed a lot over time, and is different in different places.  Western Christians even went to war with Orthodox Christians, sacking Amalfi, where they might have picked up the Pandects of Justinian, returning Roman law to Rome, and separating the Holy Roman Empire (Germany) from the church in Rome, restoring the power to the church based in Rome.   The Protestant Reformation Movement, being a refusal to submit the Holy Roman Empire to the base in Rome.   Leaving the Protestant Church even more autocratic and authoritarian than Catholism, because of a shift away from the "wise king", to the "powerful king".   LOL  like anyone is going to pick up this discussion and add anything to it.  I think not, but I am trying.

It may be easier for us to see the difference culture makes by looking at Muslims and Islam.  Yes, they all read the Koran, but they interpret it differently.  Some Muslims are doing well with science and modernization, and others are not, depending on the culture in which the Muslims find themselves.   If we think of Muslims as all camel riding, isolated tribes, and backwards people, prone to being terrorist, we are not well informed.   Bombing Iraq was a big mistake because this has been the door way between the east and west for centuries, and these were not backwards people living in isolated tribes, out of touch with the modern world.  

I think we are under estimating the power of culture, and we have not given adequate thought to what makes a culture as it is.   If we think our religions explain reality, we are not seeing the bigger picture, and that brings us to making bad decisions.   One of those very bad decisions is to replace liberal education with education for technology and leave moral training to the church.  The ramifications of this are really bad.    The Tea Party and the divisions that are tearing our nation apart are one aspect of the problem.  


Edited by Athena - 08-Apr-2011 at 16:50
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  Quote Arab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 16:22
Originally posted by Athena

You all argue over the silliest things, like is a Kurd really a Kurd?  What difference does it make if populations are mixed or not, expect for what commerce does our knowledge of the world?   What country has the best fighting men?  Are you kidding me?  Really how meaningful is this?
 
I wholeheartedly agree! We argue over things that really won't help us in the long run or change anything. Why we don't debate over more meaningful things like the betterment of humanity as a whole, I'll never know... I once saw Lebanese and Turkish people, and other near easterners, arguing about whether Tabbouleh is originally a Turkish or Arabic dish. Arguing about food... that's quite pathetic really.
 
Anyway, religion to most people is important because it offers a system of ethics to the common people. But in my personal opinion, morality doesn't really require religion. In fact, you don't have to adhere to any specific belief system to have morality. So yes, religion's role in modern society is not as significant as it once was, and one may argue that it is a hindrance to progress and being tolerant of different beliefs.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 16:36
 
''I wholeheartedly agree! We argue over things that really won't help us in the long run or change anything. Why we don't debate over more meaningful things like the betterment of humanity as a whole, I'll never know... I once saw Lebanese and Turkish people, and other near easterners, arguing about whether Tabbouleh is originally a Turkish or Arabic dish. Arguing about food... that's quite pathetic really.
 
Not unles your part Mestizo like me. Then it means everything.....do you really think I'd let a euro take credit for tiswin?Wink
 
Anyway, religion to most people is important because it offers a system of ethics to the common people. But in my personal opinion, morality doesn't really require religion. In fact, you don't have to adhere to any specific belief system to have morality. So yes, religion's role in modern society is not as significant as it once was, and one may argue that it is a hindrance to progress and being tolerant of different beliefs.'' (Arab's original)
 
Well if that's the case... then there's no use in my falling to my knees facing east and promoting my sudden conversion to all things zoroastrianism.
 
Hmmm. My dead Catholic Grandmother thanks you Arab, as do I, for pointing this out.
 
You have probably saved me from more then realize.Wink


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 08-Apr-2011 at 16:39
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  Quote Arab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 16:49
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Not unles your part Mestizo like me. Then it means everything.....do you really think I'd let a euro take credit for tiswin?Wink
 
Well, in the case of Tabbouleh, it is a dish widely consumed in the Middle Eastern world. So arguing about it is pointless, since so many different people claim to have made it. But seriously, people who argue about who invented some food are the reason I won't ever visit that certain people's country... it shows a lot about their character Disapprove
 
Well if that's the case... then there's no use in my falling to my knees facing east and promoting my sudden conversion to all things zoroastrianism.
 
No, there isn't.


Edited by Arab - 08-Apr-2011 at 16:59
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 17:02
Originally posted by Arab

Originally posted by Athena

You all argue over the silliest things, like is a Kurd really a Kurd?  What difference does it make if populations are mixed or not, expect for what commerce does our knowledge of the world?   What country has the best fighting men?  Are you kidding me?  Really how meaningful is this?
 
I wholeheartedly agree! We argue over things that really won't help us in the long run or change anything. Why we don't debate over more meaningful things like the betterment of humanity as a whole, I'll never know... I once saw Lebanese and Turkish people, and other near easterners, arguing about whether Tabbouleh is originally a Turkish or Arabic dish. Arguing about food... that's quite pathetic really.
 
Anyway, religion to most people is important because it offers a system of ethics to the common people. But in my personal opinion, morality doesn't really require religion. In fact, you don't have to adhere to any specific belief system to have morality. So yes, religion's role in modern society is not as significant as it once was, and one may argue that it is a hindrance to progress and being tolerant of different beliefs.


A huge thank you, Arab.  I worded things very badly this morning and then posted too soon, because I had to leave.   I rewrote that very bad post before I realized others had already replied.  I thank you for giving better words to what I was trying to say.    I was praying someone would get my meaning.  

Yes, yes, yes, most of what we debate and argue about is so trivial.  Here we are with this golden opportunity to discuss history with people from all over the world and achieve the full potential of human intelligence, and people are arguing religion or are just completely ignoring the lessons of history.   Seriously, what if we are in the resurrection now?  What if archeologist and geologist and related sciences are doing the work of the resurrection?   What if the Internet is part of God's plan, and we are suppose to be here figuring things out?   What if this is our last change to figure things out, and if we blow it, this is where we stop?    Not because of God's judgments, but because of our own failure to figure things and out and get them right.  


Edited by Athena - 08-Apr-2011 at 17:03
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 17:02
Oh now Arab.... I personally wouldn't go so far as to not visit because you saw a few arguing over something that might be classified as mundane. (to them it obviously wasn't) And then draw a conclusion that it speaks of character...I would submit my friend, that's to early an analysis to have been drawn.....insufficient representation of data if you will.Wink
 
 
But your always welcome on my Llano and we could eat snakes..goats...lizards...rabbitts..(no easter ones tho) grasshoppers  and even beef...we got all that and more scattered around here. You might not drink alcoholic beverages.... but I can make a fine pine herb tea. Or lemonade.
 
So when ya can... come meet us. We can even discuss the perils and or merits of religion and whether it's the world's premier problem... if ya like.
 
Thanks


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 08-Apr-2011 at 17:06
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 17:10
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

 
''I wholeheartedly agree! We argue over things that really won't help us in the long run or change anything. Why we don't debate over more meaningful things like the betterment of humanity as a whole, I'll never know... I once saw Lebanese and Turkish people, and other near easterners, arguing about whether Tabbouleh is originally a Turkish or Arabic dish. Arguing about food... that's quite pathetic really.
 
Not unles your part Mestizo like me. Then it means everything.....do you really think I'd let a euro take credit for tiswin?Wink
 
Anyway, religion to most people is important because it offers a system of ethics to the common people. But in my personal opinion, morality doesn't really require religion. In fact, you don't have to adhere to any specific belief system to have morality. So yes, religion's role in modern society is not as significant as it once was, and one may argue that it is a hindrance to progress and being tolerant of different beliefs.'' (Arab's original)
 
Well if that's the case... then there's no use in my falling to my knees facing east and promoting my sudden conversion to all things zoroastrianism.
 
Hmmm. My dead Catholic Grandmother thanks you Arab, as do I, for pointing this out.
 
You have probably saved me from more then realize.Wink


I am sorry, but all I see here is trivial and disruptive pot shots that might be an attempt at humor, but add nothing to what could be a meaningful discussion.   Could you please, reword the meaning of your thoughts so the meaningfulness of your contribution is  more obvious? 


Edited by Athena - 08-Apr-2011 at 17:12
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 17:17
Religious and cultural belief mechanisms are intertwined Athena..you don't understand this?
 
hmmmm.
 
 
If you do then your able to understand the post and the one that followed...if not..well I can't be responsible for that.
 
Sorry.
 
Potshot's? No...merely opinion-comment and reaction, as to the subject matter-comments, being presented... in this case by Arab. And last time I checked I was entiled as, a member, to do that.
 
Thanks
 
 
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  Quote Arab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 17:44
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Religious and cultural belief mechanisms are intertwined Athena..you don't understand this?
 
Not necessarily, especially our modern culture of today. You must understand that culture is always changing, but religion is not. One of the core elements of religion is that it cannot change. Thus, religion is pulling us back. In the future, religion and culture will not have such a close relationship.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2011 at 18:29
Originally posted by Arab

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Religious and cultural belief mechanisms are intertwined Athena..you don't understand this?
 
Not necessarily, especially our modern culture of today. You must understand that culture is always changing, but religion is not. One of the core elements of religion is that it cannot change. Thus, religion is pulling us back. In the future, religion and culture will not have such a close relationship.
 
Well said Arab... certainly insofar as you point out the ongoing difficulties with culture and religion....but yet you  err.
 
1. The numbers of adherents alone betray your contention and they would in all probabilty disgaree that within their cultural base mechanism and it's changes they can.... ntl... still proscribe to a particular faith...or not as they so choose. One example will suffice....whether I am or am not a practicing Catholic (and I'm not) has little impact on whether I might use an appreciate the worldwide net and the cultural impact it has had on communications. We....you and I... are the exact example of that ongoing at this moment....Glorious don't you think?
 
2. It would be more accurate to say that religion historically... has changed only slowly. Yet as I pointed out in a previous post... certainly since the age of enlightment it has indeed continued to change. Not all faiths certainly not.... but a generalized statement is in sufficient when one considers the following examples.
 
a. The original doctrinal issues that drove the schism between the RCC and the Orthodox branches of Catholism.
 
b. The division that led to the schism between the RCC and the Protestant dvisions that were created. Or even the schismatic divisions within Islam (Sunni vs Shia) whose cutlures are not.. certainly not all synonomous.
 
c. The creation of even latter branchs of quasi-protestanism... the Mormons for example.
 
d. The recent acknowledgement publically... by the RCC... of the potential of Extraterrestrial life....beings and souls (totally unheard of less then 3 years ago and would have gotten us burned quicker then poor Giordano Bruno).
 
e. The main line acceptence of the American Episcopal Church and other Protestant denominations of women and homosexuals as Priests and Pastors. (MY God man.... think of the scandal less then 30 years ago...eh. delicious.Big smile) The still ongoing raging debate within the RCC reference Priests and marriage.
 
There are many more examples my friend and while it might be apt to describe these soley as issues of doctrinal message...that's an incomplete analysis and viewpoint that will not stand scrutiny.
 
As all of them may equally be ascribed to the interwoven relationship between culture and religion with the latter changing slowly to accomodate the former....rightly or wrongly is another matter.
 
But many thanks for your kind and  perspicacious manner....
 
I would be delighted to start the tea boiling.
 
Thanks  


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 08-Apr-2011 at 18:34
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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