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Topic ClosedIndo aryans of south asia a dying people?

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Indo aryans of south asia a dying people?
    Posted: 26-Mar-2011 at 14:46
Indo aryans of south asia are a dying people in my opinion, slowly but surely the dravdian dna is taking over, the only few surviving orginal indo-aryans live in what is northern pakistan/kashmir now
 
Chitral, Pakistan
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Hunza Pakistan:
 
 
 


Edited by balochii - 26-Mar-2011 at 14:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2011 at 07:58
yeah the pure dardic people the indo aryans of kashmir gilgit and cetral are having small populations with kashmiris having 9 million population ( 6 million in kashmir valley, 1.5 million kashmiri emigrants in azat kashmir and pakistan , and 1.5 million ethnic kashmiris in the kashtvaar , and jammu regions )adding to it 1.5 million dards of gilgit and the 1.5 million nurestani and pashayi dards of afghanestan and 1 million people of chitral ,the total indo aryan or dardic population numbers at around 13 million. i m not sure but i need to check the wikipedia to come at a total tally
Káşyren hinz kàşîr
kashmir for kashmiris
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2011 at 18:04
It doesn’t matter, it’s just all flesh. You can change your appearance many times. But when you lose your language and culture, it’s gone forever! The most important think is the determination to preserve your cultural heritage and language.
 

Btw, I’m for a free Kashmir and Baluchistan.

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2011 at 03:56
Originally posted by kamran_koshur

yeah the pure dardic people the indo aryans of kashmir gilgit and cetral are having small populations with kashmiris having 9 million population ( 6 million in kashmir valley, 1.5 million kashmiri emigrants in azat kashmir and pakistan , and 1.5 million ethnic kashmiris in the kashtvaar , and jammu regions )adding to it 1.5 million dards of gilgit and the 1.5 million nurestani and pashayi dards of afghanestan and 1 million people of chitral ,the total indo aryan or dardic population numbers at around 13 million. i m not sure but i need to check the wikipedia to come at a total tally
 
what about pashtuns? there are 43 million pashtuns in total, 28 million of them live in pakistan, i think pashtuns are also one the purer indo-aryan people, many of them look like the people i posted i above
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2011 at 04:30
Originally posted by balochii
what about pashtuns? there are 43 million pashtuns in total, 28 million of them live in pakistan, i think pashtuns are also one the purer indo-aryan people, many of them look like the people i posted i above
 [/QUOTE

                                      &nb
                                                                                                                                                                     yea i do agree that many of the pakhtoons do in fact look like dards and have caucasian features as well , but the pakhtoons consider themselves to be one of the iranic peoples and their language pakhtu is also considered by linguists to be an iranic language like farsi , kurdish, beluchi,gilaki, mazerooni ,lori and ossetic. but i agree that many ethnic dards may have undergone pashtunisation throughout the centuries and even millenia i.e. they may have been assimilated into the pakhtun community and adopted the pakhtu language .same holds true for many of the tajiks especially of takhar and konduz.this may explain the dardic features like blond hair and green eyes which some pakhtuns have. but on the whole i believe that these features are indigenous to the pakhtuns as well ...because as u said they r also one of the pure indo aryan races .in my opinion they r racially indo aryan but linguistically iranic


Edited by kamran_koshur - 30-Mar-2011 at 04:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2011 at 04:34
Originally posted by MediaWarLord

 

Btw, I’m for a free Kashmir

 
thanx a ton man!!!


Edited by kamran_koshur - 30-Mar-2011 at 04:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2011 at 15:30
@Balochii there are some inaccuracies in your post. Firstly the Kalash are a Dardic people. I know the term is loose. Some linguists term it as a sect of Indo-Aryan others term it as a geo-linguistic term like "Native American" which is the term for diverse languages of the Americas.

Also your terming of Hunza people as Indo-Aryans is perhaps premature if not inaccurate. Though i'm uncertain, it's likely they are genetically Indo-Aryan however their language is non-Indo-European so it's a bit early to say who they are.

But nevertheless i agree that they are endangered and i feel they all need to be moved out of Pakistan to a safe location. The Kalash might the last people on Earth to be practicing a continuation of IE religion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2011 at 15:31
Originally posted by MediaWarLord

It doesn’t matter, it’s just all flesh. You can change your appearance many times. But when you lose your language and culture, it’s gone forever! The most important think is the determination to preserve your cultural heritage and language.
 

Btw, I’m for a free Kashmir and Baluchistan.

 


And how about a free Brahuistan and free Kalashistan and Hunzakut and free Baltistan as well?  btw what's that symbol as your avatar? Is it some Indo-Aryan sun?


Edited by PakistaniShield - 21-Apr-2011 at 15:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2011 at 17:24
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

The Kalash might the last people on Earth to be practicing a continuation of IE religion.
Ossetian folk traditions might be a close second.  Though Ossetians are largely Christian, pre Christian / Islamic  folk traditions have continued until the present day.   Once I saw a photo of what was described as an Ossetian  "folk tradition".  The photo showed a severed bull's head on an altar. The bulls head had also been garlanded in flowers.   I believe that this is similar to some Kalash rituals.


Edited by Cryptic - 21-Apr-2011 at 17:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2011 at 20:21
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

And how about a free Brahuistan and free Kalashistan and Hunzakut and free Baltistan as well?  btw what's that symbol as your avatar? Is it some Indo-Aryan sun?
Sure, but how many of those people are left?
 
What about of a free Bengali state? A few years ago I saw a movie of Satyajit Ray; Charulata (1964). I was blown away by that masterpiece. People in that movie spoke Bengali. I made a research and found out that people of India are not homogeneous at all.
 
 
Yes, maybe Indo-Aryan sun.
 
The eight-point star was part of the Mitanni royal seal. The eight pointed star is a symbol of the sun and was part of the ancient Aryan culture. But it is also a symbol of the Mesopotamian goddess Ishtar. Aryans as well Semitic people in the Mesopotamia are using this symbol.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2011 at 21:15
As long as they're happy, that's all that matters.Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2011 at 14:16
^ they are happy actually, on my trip to pakistan about 2 years ago, the northerners were the happiest people i met in pakistan, Kalash people always have a smile to their faces, so do the other Hunza/Gilgit areas. Those beautiful areas with beautiful people are untouched by all the violence happening in rest of the country. Hopefully they will stay the same!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2012 at 18:05
unfortunately their history is being wiped out, the Dardic people are the original indo aryans, who's ancestors probably even wrote the rig vedas, however today they are just confined to some mountains and villages in northern pakistan, they are slowly succumbing to the (indic) invasion from the south.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 11:03
Indo European is a language not an ethnic type. Unfortunate that the German corruption of Aryan into blond and blue eyed is still persisting.

Nobody even knows what the Rig Vedic people looked like except that they had white skin. Probably they had brown to black hair and brown eyes.

With western Pakistan being repeatedly invaded the origin of a few blue eyed and blond haired people could be anything   from Greek to Parthian to scythian to european mercenaries in hun khorasan ghazni mongol or any other army or even recently i.e. 16th to 19th century thee Russian and English occupations of nearby regions

Greek seems most likely.


Edited by Venkytalks - 15-Jan-2013 at 11:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 14:04
Originally posted by Venkytalks

Indo European is a language not an ethnic type. Unfortunate that the German corruption of Aryan into blond and blue eyed is still persisting.

Nobody even knows what the Rig Vedic people looked like except that they had white skin. Probably they had brown to black hair and brown eyes.

With western Pakistan being repeatedly invaded the origin of a few blue eyed and blond haired people could be anything   from Greek to Parthian to scythian to european mercenaries in hun khorasan ghazni mongol or any other army or even recently i.e. 16th to 19th century thee Russian and English occupations of nearby regions

Greek seems most likely.


Wrong on all counts. These people are Dardic people and not Slavic or Hellenic. Greeks do not commonly have blond hair. Most blond/red haired Greeks are mixed with Illyrians/Albanians not pure Greek. Many Dardic people are naturally blond. If anything, mixing has darkened them. A pure Dard would have white features.

And yes Haplogroup tests show that most IE speakers share the common haplogroup of R1A1, especially on Y-chromosome lines. Has nothing to do with Germans. Yes the "Aryan=European" myth was started by them, but the genetic tests showing clear common ancestry had nothing to do with the Nazis.

How would the British be able to leave a genetic imprint in the isolated mountains but not in the mostly flatlands they more easily conquered? Flawed logic.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 14:06
Originally posted by balochii

unfortunately their history is being wiped out, the Dardic people are the original indo aryans, who's ancestors probably even wrote the rig vedas, however today they are just confined to some mountains and villages in northern pakistan, they are slowly succumbing to the (indic) invasion from the south.


Unfortunately with the radical Islamitization that is growing in Pakistan like a disease is destroying the Kalash culture. And with uncontrolled population growth in Pakistan, everything is being disturbed, including the lifestyle of the Northern people.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 14:30
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by Venkytalks

Indo European is a language not an ethnic type. Unfortunate that the German corruption of Aryan into blond and blue eyed is still persisting.

Nobody even knows what the Rig Vedic people looked like except that they had white skin. Probably they had brown to black hair and brown eyes.

With western Pakistan being repeatedly invaded the origin of a few blue eyed and blond haired people could be anything   from Greek to Parthian to scythian to european mercenaries in hun khorasan ghazni mongol or any other army or even recently i.e. 16th to 19th century thee Russian and English occupations of nearby regions

Greek seems most likely.


Wrong on all counts. These people are Dardic people and not Slavic or Hellenic. Greeks do not commonly have blond hair. Most blond/red haired Greeks are mixed with Illyrians/Albanians not pure Greek. Many Dardic people are naturally blond. If anything, mixing has darkened them. A pure Dard would have white features.

And yes Haplogroup tests show that most IE speakers share the common haplogroup of R1A1, especially on Y-chromosome lines. Has nothing to do with Germans. Yes the "Aryan=European" myth was started by them, but the genetic tests showing clear common ancestry had nothing to do with the Nazis.

How would the British be able to leave a genetic imprint in the isolated mountains but not in the mostly flatlands they more easily conquered? Flawed logic.


I presume by Dardic people you mean they speak Dardic or Nuristani languages. Nothing to do with ethnicity again. It is entirely possible for an ethnic group to adopt a foreign language - the fact that I am discussing this in English and that for 2500 years of Indian recorded history, Sanskrit remained a language of elite writing and never spoken by anyone  -  means languages can be adopted, used, discarded at will and tells nothing about ethnicity.

Most Greeks and Macedonians of alexander's time were short, dark haired yes - but every army included other nationalities. Many would clan together and settle in small communities when the army disbands.

Dardic and Nuristani languages are probably of Parthian or Scythian origin than Rig Vedic - i.e later Indo Iranian migrations.

Mitochondrial and Y chromosome tests are mostly still confusing. There is no doubt that in the plains and cities, there has been so much mixing that nothing conclusive can come out - since previous populations contribute the majority of the DNA. 

Isolated small communities like Swat valley and Kashmir might have predominant populations persisting from historical settlements. But when that settlement ocurred is by no means possible to ascertain now - and certainly cannot be equated with Rig Vedic people. It could be from any time from 1500 BC to 500 AD or even later. The least one would expect, if they were Rig Vedic - is that they followed the Rig Veda in recorded history. 

BTW, I was mostly posting in response to Balochi's comment that these people are the Rig Vedic people. That they are not.


Edited by Venkytalks - 15-Jan-2013 at 14:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2013 at 12:15
^ actually if you look at the language of rig vedas, it is closes to today's dardic languages, there is defiantly a deep connection between them and people who wrote rig vedas
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2013 at 13:29
Originally posted by balochii

^ actually if you look at the language of rig vedas, it is closes to today's dardic languages, there is defiantly a deep connection between them and people who wrote rig vedas

While I am not a linguist (and not even a historian except by hobby) I would think Punjabi is far closer to Rig Vedic Sanskrit since it is directly derived from Sanskrit. Whole of Pakistan and India speaks Indo European only since even Tamil is about 50% Sanskrit.

Dardic languages might show derivation from ancient proto Indo European languages which shows a much more ancient split which remained as such because Nuristan, Swat and Kashmir are isolated and so some of the valleys speak in a more ancient dialect. Swat valley is a little too small a place for a people who invaded all the way to Bihar. Maybe a small segment of Rig Vedic people went into Swat and lost contact with the rest of the Rig Vedic people, it is possible. But to prove that, these people before conversion to other religions should have been shown to be practicing the Vedic religion. Unfortunately the swat valley was invaded by the Greeks under Alexander in around 300 BC. It was a centre of Hindu and Budhist learning and most people were Budhist. After that we don't know much history, except that during Ghazni times it was invaded by the Pushto speakers. Pushto is also a Indo European language of Irani origin. There was mass conversion to Islam.

Kalami and Kohistani are still spoken in remote valleys by small numbers. If we assume that these are the remnants of earlier people before Pushtun invasion, they could be either of Rig Vedic people or of Greek people. Their physical appearance rather suggests origin from Magyar or Russian mercenaries from the Greeks, but it could be that before mixing, the rig Vedic people looked like the swat people who don't look much different from other Iranians and Pakhtuns to me at least, except for the odd blond hair.

Swat valley had a distinct Bronze age culture between 1500 BC and 500BC. That could be settlement from BMAC after desertification of that place. And could be the source of the Swat people. 

Although I am trying to see if the Vedic people came from elsewhere, current belief is that they came from the Punjab. What little I have read of Veda in English fits well with origin in Punjab and NWFP and Afghanistan. Time overlaps with the Swat burial  culture though between 1200 and 600 BC. The link definitely needs exploring.


Edited by Venkytalks - 20-Jan-2013 at 14:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2013 at 14:58
^I have researched a lot on languages, even one of my essays was on languages of south asia and central asia, and I can say that a language like Kosher Kashmiri which is a dardic language is much closer to original  Rig Vedic Sanskrit.  A language like Punjabi developed much later under the  Dramatic Prakrit period (medieval India). If any thing a language like Hindko which is spoken in NWFP of pakistan is actually a much older form of (punjabi) but even Hindko decends from the early rig vedic sanskrit which was spoken in the Gandhara/Peshawar Valley region. The Dardic languages have been almost untouched from outside influence and one can clearly see the connection between them and Rig Vedas

Also Vedic people were not punjabis, they might have settled in the Upper Indus area of present day punjab, but they certainly did not originate there
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