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Nick1986
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Topic: What if Harold won the Battle of Hastings Posted: 22-Mar-2011 at 18:29 |
After destroying Hardraada's Viking army good King Harold leads the English to victory against William the Bastard. How would this affect history?
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Posted: 24-Mar-2011 at 11:10 |
IF he manages to kill William in the process and IF danes are unwilling to invade again, we have a saxon-danish England, with strong ties both to Scandinavia and Iceland. Maybe this northern "commonwealth" will be strong enough to prevent the adventure of Erik in Greenland and Vineland from failing, so it turns up north america gets colonized a couple of centuries earlier too.
If this happen we will have no One hundred years war, no reasons to it, but more important it is quite sure that civilized people from middle america have contact from the vikings settlers in canada.
This means two great things: Mayans, Aztecs and so on learn how to use iron, but in the process get their share of diseases from settlers, so when and if Spain attempts to conquer they will have a very hard time
given that the world would change a lot from a victory of Harold.
oh, did I mention that Christianity as a whole will suffer, as Viking worship Odin?:)
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Nick1986
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Posted: 24-Mar-2011 at 11:41 |
The survivial of Vinland would be interesting. I wonder who'd win in a fight between an Americanised Viking berserker and a Spanish Conquistador?
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Nick1986
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Posted: 24-Mar-2011 at 12:01 |
Would there be a UK if we still had Saxon kings? Harold had good relations with the Scots and was respected by the Welsh and Irish. If England, Scotland and Ireland remained independent would they be stronger or weaker? And would they coexist as allies or eventually become enemies when they outgrow their borders?
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Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 01:23 |
my thinking is that it would end up in a loose commonwealth includind scandinavia, england, wales scotland and ireland, plus iceland and new world colonies
as for spanish conquistadores it remaines to be seen if reconquista is not (badly) affected I seem to remember that there were a few english noblemen present at some battle: it is said that english noblemen saw first use of artillery there in 14th century, but who knows if they still would go, new world seems a much more inviting place to conquer anyway the so called "indians" (north american plains tribes) horse mounted a couple of centuries before would be a real challenge for any non modern army
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Nick1986
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Posted: 15-Nov-2012 at 08:06 |
Perhaps Harold would recruit William's mutinous Breton troops and take the fight to the Frogs? With local support, the Saxons might even have been able to liberate northern France from feudal tyranny
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Toltec
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Posted: 15-Nov-2012 at 09:19 |
I'd go as far as to say, no Britain, no Hundred Years War, no English Revolution, no venture capitalism, no 13 colonies, no Australia, no Industrial Revolution and no British Empire. Half the world would speak French, feudalism would only have finished a century ago and most countries on earth would be dictatorships, royal or non-royal.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 22-Nov-2012 at 19:43 |
Perhaps the Scots would build an empire and eventually incorporate a weakened England?
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Drachenfire
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Posted: 24-Nov-2012 at 03:13 |
In the long term, I believe there would be very little difference whether or not Harold won at Hastings. Geo-political currents led to a distinctive English cultural consciousness by the 11th century and followed by political unity in the person of Edward the Confessor, himself a francophone. Norman settlements already existed in England by the mid 11th century, and Norman-Frankish customs introduced by Edward the Confessor and his successors would have had a long term impact on English political evolution regardless of whether of not it was done at the end of a sword point.
It is simply a matter of to what degree Norman-French would have contributed to the linguistic and cultural evolution of the English. Another important consideration is the influence Latin Christianity was exerting and would continue to exert. The Norman enterprise into England was backed by Roman ecclesiastical zeal to reform religious practices in the British and Irish isles.
What-ever polity controlled the agriculturally rich south-east of Britain would have had a tremendous influence over the whole of the British and Irish isles, and rulers anywhere would always try and strong-arm weaker neighbors. An important consideration to remember is that Carolingian feudalism contributed to a strong sense of localism both politically and socially, and that localism fostered specializations and led towards innovations and trade.
But what I think is important to note is that there was never any 'manifest destiny' for England to conquer Wales, Ireland, and Scotland. Opportunities presented themselves for the native rulers of Scotland, Wales, and Ireland to assert independence to one degree or another. Fate is a fickle mistress.
Let us not think, however, that any polity based in the south-east of England would not have been drawn into continental (as opposed to Nordic) affairs any differently then it had.
Edited by Drachenfire - 24-Nov-2012 at 03:34
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Posted: 26-Nov-2012 at 15:45 |
I can't think that a Saxon/Viking coomonwealth would be a little change... anyway: - no 100 Years War, no reason for it - America gets colonized from Vinland, giving plenty of time to Meso American to prepare and be immunized by diseases slowly brought by settlers - horses from Viking settlers would sooner or later evade and get free, giving "indian" tribes a poerful weapon in future wars - why no venture capitals, Australia or extended feudalism is beyond me!:)
a France freed from lenghty wars with England would unite sooner, becoming maybe the dominant power in west Europe
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opuslola
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Posted: 05-Dec-2013 at 23:11 |
Since the Normans were considered to be Norsemen, then a defeated "bastard", assuming he was not killed, would have returned to his estates in Normandy, and resumed his desire to conquer some other place. If, indeed, he had died in England, then others of his type including his sons would have fought over these same lands, I would expect.
The entire thing though is an exercise in futility since we can merely speculate about future events in Europe. Things could have ended up about the same if the "Bastard" had survived and attacked England at a later day.
But certainly the very ugly death of William (the Bastard) might well have been averted! If it is even true!
Have you ever read the story? supposedly he was injured internally while on his horse, and finally "blew up" from the gasses released by his internal injuries.
Regards, Ron
Edited by opuslola - 14-Dec-2013 at 19:14
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