Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)
Lowland Germanic Languages |
Post Reply 
|
| Author |
 Share Topic Printable Version Google Delicious Digg StumbleUpon Windows Live Yahoo Bookmarks reddit Facebook MySpace Newsvine Furl Topic Search  Topic Options
|
|
AyKurt 
Shogun 
Joined: 24-Mar-2005 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 236 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Lowland Germanic LanguagesPosted: 10-Apr-2005 at 08:44 |
|
|
Are their any speakers of these languages and dialects who could tell how intelligible they are to one another?
As far as i understand, some dialects in Eastern Holland, like Twente, is closer to Low German than to standard Dutch. Standard Dutch is closer to Flemish, Brabantish and Zeelandic. And then there is Frisian. Would it be right to say in the Netherlands, Northern Germany and Belgium region there are at least 3 languages or dialects, each with their own varieties, being spoken? Dutch or Netherlandish- Standard Dutch, Flemish, Brabantish and Zeelandic Low Saxon or Low Germanic - Spoken in Northern Germany and Eastern Netherlands Frisian How accurate is this? |
||
 |
||
|
Cywr
King 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6003 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 12:09 |
|
|
Frisian is kind of far out and on its own.
Twents isn't incredicly different from standard Dutch, but the pronounciations do sound closer to some Low German dialects (i actualy learned Dutch there). |
||
 Arrrgh!!"
|
||
|
||
|
Teup
Earl 
Joined: 25-Jan-2005 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 287 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 14:03 |
|
|
As some of you will know, it is said there are about 6800 languages today. As for the Netherlands, that includes dialects like Achterhoeks and a couple of others. IMO this is exaggerated, they may not be mutually intelligable in terms of quick and colloquial speech, but the only real differences if you study them closely are probably a hand full of lexical items and a phonology that is a bit off standard Dutch. It doesn't add anything to syntax, morphology, phonotaxis (what combinations of speech sounds are 'grammatical' and hard rules to their pronounciation), so in my personal definition, there's only Dutch and Frisian here that are real 'languages'. Flemish is still a dialect of Dutch, but seems many things have changed in real west Flemish dialects in such a way that I wouldn't understand even if it's written down or said again and again. I bet in the not too distant future it will be listed as a seperate language (for example in software packages that also have languages like Afrikaans). As for your definitions, looks good, I must admit I don't know alot about what's spoken in the east of the Netherlands, I know along the border there is some Dutch/German mixture going on, but only in small communities, there are no major cities or anything, and no official written form. I think of it as a dialect of both, but I really haven't studied it. There are more dialects of standard Dutch, Limburgish and Stedsk for example. Limburgish is the most famous and most recognizable. To me it is a more extreme form of Brabantian (but I'm a Hollander, so that's just my view So basically it is just some of shifting in phonemes, but no new rules or features. Stedsk is also a dialect of Dutch, influenced by Frisian. Frisian is also spoken in the north of Germany, by the way. Maybe it has dialects as well... Edited by Teup |
||
|
Whatever you do, don't
|
||
|
||
|
Jazz
Baron 
Joined: 29-Mar-2005 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 410 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 03:35 |
|
|
I've seen isogloss maps of the Germanic languages that dated in the 19th century.
My understanding for Germany at least is that Hoch Deutsch (High German) is what is being taught in schools as the official lingua franca. I don't know if the Low German dialects are still spoken or not at home and in small communities, but I am curious about that. |
||
|
||
|
Teup
Earl
Joined: 25-Jan-2005 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 287 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 12:06 |
|
|
We need Germans. Can someone recrute some Germans for this forum? Yeah, we have Komnenos, but he's just an English speaking Dutchman
|
||
|
Whatever you do, don't
|
||
|
||
|
Komnenos
Tsar 
Retired AE Administrator Joined: 20-Dec-2004 Location: Neutral Zone Online Status: Offline Posts: 4361 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 18:04 |
|
Wo geihtt blots an: Vadder hett en Kasten kfft, de snacken kann-- He steiht opt Schapp, as en anner ok; Vadder makt: Tipp - und denn as ni klook, denn speelt he mitn Vigelin un Fleit, as weer dat ut de Luft herweit. Un denn snackt een. Un denn snackt twee. Un denn ward dat en grote Snackeree. Mal snackt en Mann, mal snackt en Fro, un mmer heet se ...... Un abends, wenn ik slapen schall, denn makt se richtig erst Krawall, Mit Brummbass, Trummel un Trumpett, dar speelt se all denn m de Wett. Dat larmt un zackareert as dull. Dat ganze Huus is darvon vull. Man mmerto, man mmerto - Vr Vadder hebbt se Angst - ja, ja -- He drckt mal eben opn Knoop -- forts holt se op. Can any of our Germanic cousins work out what this is all about? "Plattdeutsch" ( Flat German) is still spoken in some rural areas in the Muensterland, the agricultural area north of the Ruhr up to the Dutch border and possibly else in the North-West of Germany. However, it is dying as a living language, and only kept artificially alive as literary language through a number of dedicated associations and individuals. "Plattdeutsch" is based on Old Saxon dialects that weren't affected by the second German sound shift around 500AD and was widely spoken in my area until the spread of urbanisation and mass media. Edited by Komnenos |
||
|
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
|
||
|
||
|
Komnenos
Tsar
Retired AE Administrator Joined: 20-Dec-2004 Location: Neutral Zone Online Status: Offline Posts: 4361 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 18:07 |
|
Is that a compliment? |
||
|
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
|
||
|
||
|
Teup
Earl
Joined: 25-Jan-2005 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 287 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 06:02 |
|
|
If you say so... I'd say that text is German for a big part, if you can't read then I must've been right about you Hmm it has a handfull of Dutch words but I really can't make any sense of that text.. I wonder if it makes sense at all though Edited by Teup |
||
|
Whatever you do, don't
|
||
|
||
|
Komnenos
Tsar
Retired AE Administrator Joined: 20-Dec-2004 Location: Neutral Zone Online Status: Offline Posts: 4361 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 06:17 |
|
I can read that poem allright, no problem, just wanted to see if any of your lot can understand what's this all about. There isn't a single"Dutch" word there, all good old Low-german dialect. But then, that's what Dutch really is, nicht wahr? Edited by Komnenos |
||
|
[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
|
||
|
||
|
Teup
Earl
Joined: 25-Jan-2005 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 287 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 06:28 |
|
|
Yeah yeah stimmt, Dutch is a dialect, I know... 'Grote' and 'slapen' and 'speelt' and 'een' and 'twee' are "Dutch", but it could be this Low-german dialect just fled from German in the same direction as Dutch did |
||
|
Whatever you do, don't
|
||
|
||
|
AyKurt
Shogun
Joined: 24-Mar-2005 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 236 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 08:37 |
|
|
Here is a good site on Lowland Germanic languages
www.lowlands-l.net Also if you join the list there are alot of people from all over the world discussing about the lowland germanic languages. I had subscribed to it a while ago although i am only really interested mostly on the discussions about Scots. However there are many plattdeutsch speakers there as well as other languages like Dutch and Afrikaans etc. It is mostly scholarly discussions but understandable to the layman. |
||
|
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
|
||
|
||
|
Teup
Earl
Joined: 25-Jan-2005 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 287 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 15:41 |
|
|
Good site. I'm too lazy to suscribe right now, but maybe I will later on. My god, Brabants is far less intelligible than I thought it was - frankly, I only understand a few phrases from the whole site description in Brabants. I think an ordinary speaker of Dutch with no knowledge of German would understand more of written (maybe also spoken) German than of Brabants. Zeeuws is more recognizable. In fact, reading it out loud makes it very acceptable 'ordinary' Dutch. IMO Zeeuws really is a dialect and certainly nothing more, it just writes a bit more phonetically and sounds more informal. But Brabants should be given the language status, otherwise I'm taking it as a direct offence regarding my reading capabilities and insights Edited by Teup |
||
|
Whatever you do, don't
|
||
|
||
|
yan.
Consul 
Joined: 15-Apr-2005 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 352 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 16:46 |
|
|
The text is about a radio, somewhat hard to understand if you're not really from the north. I think I could translate about 90%. Edited by yan. |
||
|
||
|
Teup
Earl
Joined: 25-Jan-2005 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 287 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 18:17 |
|
|
I saw you posting elsewhere, it kinda stood out since I haven't seen any German flags waving around here so far |
||
|
Whatever you do, don't
|
||
|
||
), in which the 'g's, that are fricatives in standard Dutch, and are softened in Brabantian, are completely palatized, sounding like my 'j' in my 'ja'. In return, the 'r' that is either rolling or uvular in standard Dutch, sounds in Limburgish like the harsh fricative 'g'. The 'w', that is labiodental in standard Dutch (as in German), is bilabial in Limburgish, like in English. The long 'a' is the same in Dutch and German, but is less open in Limburgish and is a slight diphtong (same as Swedish 'a'). But enough about these details, it's only a dialect 
|
Post Reply
|
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz
This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.
