Similar battle deaths of 300!

Here is another version of some of my thoughts:

More about; Thermopylae, 300 dead knights, secret passages, famous sayings, cavalry traps, white chalk or ashes, and possibly the solution to a problem from the Middle Ages, and beyond!

You must notice that anything in this essay that is made "bold", or shows up in "bold" print, are points that I consider important!
http://www.livius.org/th/thermopylae/thermopylae4.html Ca. 470 BCE

The early fifth century history of Central Greece is poorly understood, but it is certain that the Thessalians and Phocians were at war "a few years before the Persian invasion" (Herodotus, Histories, 8.27). During this war, the "Phocian Wall" was built at Thermopylae: about 150 meters long, parallel along the road, and offering the Phocians a safe place from which to throw missiles at the invaders."

(I hope you noticed that the "Phocian Wall", was not (it seems) built to serve as a block to the road, but as a protected place whereby they could assail the enemy from behind protection, and was, it seems only located on one side of the road! The road itself remained free of obstructions! It seems to me that a defensive work of this type which was (it seems) only 150 metres long could only contain about 300 defenders, or in this case offensive personnel, since it was designed to only "throw missiles at the invaders!" This would mean two missile throwers per metre! I would also ask, just what were the "missiles" that were thrown?

Did the 300 throw rocks?, or did they sling stones?, or did they throw darts (if darts, just what were darts?), etc. It seems that it would be fairly easy to defeat such a defense if they only had rocks, darts, stones, spears, etc. to throw at the attackers who would be in a very narrow defile! The invaders would only have to place protection upon one side of their column and would thus be able to repel attacks of this kind! Mere wooden panels, held alongside of wagons and men and animals would thus receive a lot of protection from such an attack!

Is my logic flawed at this point? And just how many missiles were available to be thrown? It seems a determined attacker with enough troops could quickly deplete the missile stores what ever they were if they were only stones, darts, rocks, and spears, etc.!

Just what kind of "missile" could have been used to prevent entry via the road?

The article continues;

"However, the Malians (allies of the Thessalians), discovered the Anopaea path and Thermopylae fell for the first time (Herodotus, Histories, 7.215). The invaders, however, were defeated at Hyampolis and the Phocians were able to free themselves."

The above account is informative in that it mentions that the Phocians reportedly defeated the Malian invaders in a later battle at Hyampolis and recovered their independence. This seems strangely similar to the events after the Spartan Greek stand at Thermopylae?

More about the above can be found here;

http://www.lightfigures.com/numismat/larissa/show.php?page=13

The first section of the above site is entitled;

"Thessalian Geography and Institutions"

You need to read it, and compare the organization of this area with the organization of the Feudal System in the Middle Ages? It seems awfully similar to me!
In section two, you probably need to know the meaning of "medizers?"

See;

http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/08mtg/abstracts/watson.pdf   And from this site you can read;

"Medism – that is, willing collaboration with the Persians by a Greek city –.."

Thus medizers willingly co-operated with the Persians / Medes! You see they were still referred to as Medes! Could these words also describe the "Frankish" dukes, earls, knights who invaded Greece after the fall of Constantinople? It may be strange but it seems that there were two competing groups of knights or warriors that had connections within what we now refer to as Spain competing in Greece against one another, in the "Middle Ages" / "Medial Ages?"! See next!

You really need to compare the attitudes of Sparta and Athens at this early date (6th Century BCE) with that of the Catalan Company rule of Athens and the Navarresse Company rule of Sparta in the Middle Ages?

Then you might well want to read part two of; http://www.lightfigures.com/numismat/larissa/show.php?page=13

Remember you must look for some correlations from B.C.E. times to Medieval times! You might well note that even the word "Medieval" seems to make some connection to the word "Media" or the "Medes?" I will leave it to you, the reader to see what you can make of this claim! No matter what you find, I will be able to meet you in the "middle!" Chuckle!

But some really strange information, if it is true, can be found here;

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/I52h.html
　
"Ancient Phokis, the land of the Phokians (a.k.a. Phokaeans, Phocians), lay north of Boeotia and Thebes and was bounded by Locris and Aetolia to the west and Thessalia to the north. According to Greek legend, Phokia derived its name from Phocus of Corinth, who settled near Tithorea and Delphi in mythical times and became a great leader in the region.

In his Description of Greece, Pausanias notes that "opposite the Peloponnesus, and in the direction of Boeotia, Phocis stretches to the sea, and touches it on one side at Cirrha, the port of Delphi, and on the other at the city of Anticyra. In the direction of the Lamian Gulf there are between Phocis and the sea only the Hypocnemidian Locrians. By these is Phocis bounded in this direction, by Scarpheia on the other side of Elateia, and by Opus and its port Cynus beyond Hyampolis and Abae."

According to Homer, the Phokians "held Kyparissos, and rocky Pytho, and Krisa the sancrosanct together with Daulis and Panopeus; they who lived about Hyampolis and Anamoreia, they who dwelt about Kephisos, the river immortal, they who held Lilaia beside the well springs of Kephisos." Essentially, Phokia was a federation of 20 townships centered in the upper valley of the Cephisus river with Krisa as its capital."
In the last paragraph above you will see the mention of "Kypar-issos", and "Pytho" and "Krisa" and Kepj-isos, and finally "the Cephisus river with Krisa as its capital!""

Note also in the above quotation the use of "..Kephisos, the river immortal" and "..the well springs of Kephisos,..", etc. and the use of "Cephisus river" also! Are all of these words the same?

The following site is also of some interest; http://www.theoi.com/Potamos/PotamosKephisos1.html

"The Kephisos River had its headwaters on the northern slopes of Mount Parnassos, and the southern foothills of the Mount Othrys. It flowed east through Phokis and Boiotia before emptying into Lake Kopais near the town of Orkhomenos. The most important neighbouring rivers of the Boiotian Kephisos were the Sperkheios of Malis to the north, the Pleistos of Phokis to the south, and the Ismenos of central Boiotia to the south-east.

It is possible that the same river-god presided over the two Kephisos rivers of Attika. The river may have been thought to travel underground from Lake Kopais, to rise in the mountains of Kithairon and Parnes, there to form the two Athenian rivers of the same name. A fourth Kephisos located in Argos, vanished into a cleft in the earth. It may have been thought of as the source of the Phokian river, after travelling north through underground passages."

So, it seems that we are left with a bunch of possibilities whenever we see either the words "Kephisos" / "Kephissos?", or "Cephissus" / "Cephisus", mentioned!

And I would especially like you to consider these words from the above quote; " It is possible that the same river-god presided over the two Kephisos rivers of Attika.", as well as these words; " The river may have been thought to travel underground from Lake Kopais, to rise in the mountains of Kithairon and Parnes, there to form the two Athenian rivers of the same name."

Can any one identify the "two Athenian rivers of the same name?"


Perhaps you might want to read the following site;

http://books.google.com/books?id=V6YoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=krisa+greece&source=bl&ots=oBF5nG_-5d&sig=etFKjjvtohJEfi6lWork05knjL4&hl=en&ei=JiJySvGXKcaMtgef55iNBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/I52h.html continues with;

Because of its location in central Greece, Phokia was a cross-roads" (I must interrupt here to make a possible point? Does not the word "Phokis" look and sound similar to "phocus?" as well as "fokis?", and thus,"focus?" If so, then a "cross-roads" would well be a place to "focus" upon?)

The web site continues; "to much of Greek history, being proximate to the strategic pass at Thermopylae, the ancient oracle at Delphi (originally a Phokian dependancy), Mount Parnassos, and Doria (the first city of the Dorians in Greece)."

Note please, the use of the word "proximate!", which means "very near!" This is a much better description of a place than the use of the word "approximate" which is much less clear since it is only approximate! Laugh.

And the mention of the "Dorians"!, is a word that has mystified numerous historians for many years! It seems few historians can really get their hands upon this almost mysterious force of people who, it seems, overran Greece!

But, I am always amazed that no one, it seems, has ever connected "Dorian" with "Doria!", and the great exploits of an Admiral or two known by that name!

The quotation continues;

"According to Homer, during the Trojan War, the Phokians under Skhedios and Epistrophos provided 40 black ships to the Achaean host and fought as the left wing of the army. And in approximately 600 BC, Phokia founded a colony at Massalia (modern Marseille, France)."

I must now mention that the area around Marseille was at one time basically a part of Catalonia, and the language "du Oc" (Occitan) is but considered as a version of Catalonian or the other way!

The quotation continues;

"During the First Sacred War (595-586 BC), Phokis fell under the control of Thessaly, their traditional rival. During this period, Delphi was liberated from Phokian control by Kleistehenes of Sikyon (585 BC) and the famous Oracle and surroundings were established as an independent city."

A few additional bits of information related to the above paragraph;

http://knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Cleisthenes/ and;

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0812505.html

From the last site you can read; "Cleisthenes, fl. 510 B.C., Athenian statesman. He was the head of his family, the Alcmaeonidae, after the exile of Hippias, and with Spartan help had made himself undisputed ruler of Athens by 506 B.C. He established a more democratic constitution by weakening the clan system and the local parties and by organizing the districts into political rather than social divisions. The Alcmaeonidae thus became leaders of a democratic party, a reorientation making them anti-Spartan instead of pro-Spartan as earlier. An attempt of his rival, Isagoras, to overturn the reforms of Cleisthenes after Cleisthenes had been sent into exile failed, and Cleisthenes was recalled."

Now there is a lot going on at the above, but particular attention might be shown to the word "Hippias?" Just what or whom were or was, or could the word "Hippias?" have meant?

First look here;

http://search.aol.com/aol/search?invocationType=webmail-hawaii1-standardaol&query=the%20exile%20of%20Hippias

We see that there was a tyrant named Hippias! But, it seems he is of no real importance here, is he?

Then read the following where "Hippias" is merely spelled "Hippas!";

http://books.google.com/books?id=eJwSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=%2Bhippas+meaning&source=bl&ots=ApYz0X4kAO&sig=PZOufTQKPqkQOxA4c-3XTLdNP3Y&hl=en&ei=2ilySsjeC4KGtgen1rCNBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10

From the above you will see what one learned "expert" had to say about it! He calls it (the word Hippas) "a form of wrestling!"

You see, it happened a long time ago, back in BCE times! It could have nothing to do with later times! But, it is certainly very close!

Heck, as a child we / I even played such a game! The point was to "dismount" the rider! What other "game" involved this? If you perform any kind of search concerning "hippas" you will automatically notice that the word "hippo", which almost any fool would know is the ancient Greek word for "horse!", is a prime substitute! I. E. "Augustine of Hippas / Hippo!"

Thus the game (played in "ancient Greece") was a child’s version of "jousting!", I.E. "Unseat your opponent!" If you see the word "hippas" you might well want to consider "horse mounted knights?" I would suggest that the "wrestling matches" as our esteemed author above said, were merely Jousting Matches, which were a symbol of the Middle Ages!

So, from the above sites words concerning the "exile of (the) hippias", one might well consider that it was the exile of the "horse mounted knights!" or "the cavalry?" You decide!

But, perhaps we really need to read about the "tyrant" called "Hippias?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippias_(tyrant)

As well as this Hippias?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippias

And, as well you can read this;

http://messagenetcommresearch.com/myths/ppt/Hippias_1.html

"his brother, Hipparkhus might be thought of as co-tyrant and was thus a powerful man in Athens; Hipparkhus was in love with a young man named Harmodius but his affection was not returned; Hipparkhus sought to humiliate Harmodius by publicly slandering Harmodius’ sister." Perhaps the above could not have made it in the a "Band of Brothers?", or "Lovers?

You can decide just how important the above named really are to my story!

And now you will read (from the original quoted site) about two "obscure battles" which might seem familiar?

"Two obscure battles fought prior to 480 BC helped Phokis throw off the Thessalian yoke.

In a battle in the pass at Hyampolis, they defeated the Thessalian cavalry by strategem, which involved digging a ditch, filling it with empty water jars, and then leveling it over with dirt. The jars broke beneath the weight of the charging Thessalian horse, dismounting riders and crippling the legs of their steads."

How utterly incredible!

Just how many hundreds of ceramic water jars would have been needed to make a difference? How deep would the "ditch" have to be?, and how long was it? And just how big were the water jars? The above begs for some explanation!

We need to stop at this point so I can make mention of another battle that is somewhat similar to the above "empty water jars" entry. Please see;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Halmyros

Where you will see; "The Company" (the Catalan Company) "assumed a defensive position on the plain of Orchomenus, near the River Cephissus. Their Turkish auxiliaries took up a separate position nearby, thinking the quarrel was a pretext arranged by the Company and the Duke of Athens to exterminate them.

To protect their position, the Catalans broke dikes and dug trenches, diverting water from the Cephissus to flood the fields lying in front of them."

(We must consider that the fields mentioned must have been recently tilled and made soft.)

"On the eve of battle, the Catalans in the Duke's service, stricken by conscience, took leave of him and rejoined the Company. (You must know that the number of Catalan soldiers who left the service of Gauthier de Brienne, is said, to have numbered 300!) "This circumstance little disturbed the Duke, who still outnumbered the company, and had at his command the chivalry of the Frankish states in Greece, considered the flower of the French-speaking world." (In the above paragraph we are not told just how many Catalans were in the service of the "Duke", who is supposed to be Duc/ Dux Gauthier / Walter de Brienne!)

"The Duke, with his banner in the vanguard, opened the battle with a cavalry charge against the Catalans, followed by the infantry. In the morass covering the Catalan front, the cavalry soon became hopelessly mired, the Duke and his banner falling in a rain of assegais from the almogavars. As the lightly-equipped Catalans advanced to cut down the wallowing knights, the Turkish auxiliaries descended from their camp upon the Athenian army, panicking and routing what remained of it."

According to Muntaner, only two of the seven hundred knights survived the battle, Roger Deslaur and Boniface of Verona. However, Nicholas Sanudo, later Duke of the Archipelago, also escaped, and a few others, like Antoine le Flamenc, were probably ransomed. Muntaner claims that 20,000 of the infantry were killed, and all of the native horse." (here as one of you has already sumised it seems that "native horse" in this instance means "native cavalry / horse=soldiers', in the plural, and not just a horse.

Might one assume that "Antoine le Flamenc", could well have described some one who was from a "Flemish" / "Flamenc?" background? And, notice well, that the above account mentions not a word about the use of bows and arrows!

Were the Franks immune to them?

Were the Catalans adverse to them?

Now back to the account of the;

"First Sacred War (595-586 BC)";

The Thessalians retaliated with a massive invasion of Phokia.
A reconnaisance force of 300 Phokians under Gelon was destroyed to the man, prompting a panic among the Phokians. All their women, children and goods were collected and placed under the charge of 30 men with orders to kill them and burn the goods if the Thessalians should prevail in the coming battle (a.k.a. "The Phocian Despair")."

(Above the 300 Phokians / Phocians were reportedly only a "reconnaisance force" and thus were expected to avoid a trap or one sided battle!)

"The Phokians then mustered their forces with Daiphantes of Hyampolis commanding the horse and Rhoeus of Ambrossus leading the foot under the overall direction of Tellias, a seer of Elias" (please think of the Eli or Elias of the Bible?) ", who brought a favorable oracle from Delphi. In the subsequent battle, the Phokians fought desperately and wrenched victory against long odds against the Thessalians who were compelled to retire.

Subsequently, Tellias the Eleian hand-picked six hundred Phokians and had them and their armor and shields covered in white chalk. They attacked the Thessalians at night in their encampment, causing a panic and slaying over 4000. Defeated and demoralized, the Thessalians withdrew.

Wow, who knew? Above we see a "reconnaissance" force of 300 men under their leader "Gelon" were killed "to the man" by the Thessalians! I thought only the 300 Spartans were famous for fighting to the last man, but in a subsequent battle they were avenged, just like the "300 Spartans!".

Does any other information concerning this "Gelon" exist?

There is this; http://www.fjkluth.com/writing.html , (which is just a repeat of the above) but other than this it seems the only other Gelon mentioned existed in Syracuse!

It seems that the Gelon of Phocis has no other fame! But the covering of the Phokian’s armor and shields with white chalk is interesting. Ashes can also be "chalk" looking! (Some where, some time in the past, certain warriors were also said to have covered themselves in the ashes of a famous opponent!)

Fortunately for us, we have the following article concerning the "Gelon of Syracuse" in Sicily / Greater / Great? Greece;

http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=church&book=persian&story=greeks

In the above article are these words which may surprise you?

"Then said Gelon, ‘Man of Athens, ye seem to have commanders more than enough, but of them that should be commanded a few only. Go ye back then to Greece with all haste, and say that she has lost the spring out of the year.’ For he likened himself and his power to the spring, which is the best season of the year."

The key statement you might recognize is, "Man of Athens, ye seem to have commanders more than enough, but of them that should be commanded a few only." Note this statement, or one very close to it, was also made about 480 BCE!

Does the above line seem somewhat familiar? It was supposedly spoken in about 480 BCE! Can any of you remember the famous words supposedly said by "Xerxes?", or possibly by, John / Jean I (ier) (Jacques?) de la Roche?

According to Wikipedia;

"In 1275, John," (Jean I (Ier), de la Roche) "with 300 knights, relieved Neopatras, blockaded by land and by sea. It was at Thermopylae, confronting the Greek enemy" (Greek meaning Byzantine) ", that he said "'Great are their numbers but few among them are true men." And, quoting Herodotus, who reportedly wrote, of the Battle of Thermopylae, ‘The Persians are great in their numbers but true men are far and few.’"

Compare with the words of Gelon above; "...ye seem to have commanders more than enough, but of them that should be commanded a few only."

"F. Gregorovius, when reporting the "de la Roche event" in his "History of the City of Athens in the Middle Ages--", was quick to notice the obvious plagiarism in the above words attributed to ‘John / Jean / Jacques? I / ier", since they were basically the same words reportedly quoted as being said by Xerxes (per Herodotus) when faced with a similar force (one that was reportedly made up of 300 Spartans under Leonidas, many hundreds of years earlier, as Herodotus is understood, as well as the words of Gelon of Syracuse, in our ‘consensual’ histories"

So, as historians of a sort, are we to believe the above quotations are merely co-incidences? Of course Gregorovius considered that de la Roche, was educated enough to remember the words of Herodotus, but what of Gelon of Syracuse, and what of Gelon of Phocis who also led and lost 300 men?

Could not, all of the above quotations be translated with the same meaning? It seems that it totally relies upon the translator him/her self?

Wow, a real examination of the past, seems to reveal a lot of strange things! But, of course, I would bet that the defenders of our consensual history would dismiss the above as "merely a co-incidence!"

Co-incidentially, I do not!

Just for a few quality points, have any of you ever seen the drawings showing the "poor" Knights of Solomon", E.g. the "Knights of the Temple" / Knights Templar, riding two to a horse? That is one armoured kinght sitting right behind his saddle mate?

Could such a scene be considered as somewhat "homosexual?"

If you have seen it, then please show it?

If not, then I shall have to do so!

If, indeed such a representation is known to any of you, or if any of you actually remember seeing such, then you might well consider the words "Band of Brothers", which is really any of the so called Medieval Groups of "Brother" or "religious" knights, who were members of certain "Orders" of the "Cross", which were ordained by the Pope to fight wars for God! I.e. they were "brother-hoods!"

And so were, we are told, the "Kinghts of the Temple!"

But, just what religious "Order" were the knights of the Thebeans? That is just what group did the "order" of knights that defended "Holy Thebes" originate?

Were they "Brothers", like our modern priests? Or were they sexually related? That is, just what was a "Sacred Band?"

Just a few things for one to consider!

Edited by opuslola - 15-Dec-2010 at 15:28

And Ron forget about those 300 Spartans. They were more than 300 Spartans and some others who were not Spartans. 300 - were Spartiates.

http://hispanismo.org/english/11502-almogavars-james-i-peter-iii-catalonia-aragon.html

Since I used the above site for my information concerning the death of the 300 Knights of Death in Sicily, I just wanted to know if any of you can find anymore information concerning this event?


From the above site, you will notice that it does not seem to mention that the leader of the "Knights of Death" was one Huges/Hugh de Brienne! I wonder why since there was a previous mention of Walther deBrienne, who was also killed by the almogavars!

But notice please these words from above!

"At the Battle of Gagliano (Sicily) against the three hundred handpicked French knights ironically calling themselves the Knights of Death, more than a hundred of them fell victim to these tactics. The Almogavars "went about amongst them as if they were walking in a garden" (Muntaner, 458)."

Please note the word "garden!" Does it strike a bell?

Certainly it seems, I have tried to obtain more information, but any remarks concerning it seem to be well hidden, or non-existant! Except for a few very hidden ones! And just why should that be? The name DeBrienne(s), is one of the most famous of this era! And, at least three of them, it seems, have some connection to the use of 300 knights!

Could this information be deliberately hidden? After all most all of you here have devoted a lot of your lives into researching the past, but just how many of you had ever heard of most of the information I have passed on, in the last number of posting here, before?

How many of you ever considered the multiple mentions of 300 or its multiple 600 in so many ancient accounts?

I don't even remember if I have exausted my supply of them yet?

Edited by opuslola - 15-Dec-2010 at 18:25

Earlier on this series of postings, I wrote;

"(I hope you noticed that the "Phocian Wall", was not (it seems) built to serve as a block to the road, but as a protected place whereby they could assail the enemy from behind protection, and was, it seems only located on one side of the road! The road itself remained free of obstructions! It seems to me that a defensive work of this type which was (it seems) only 150 metres long could only contain about 300 defenders, or in this case offensive personnel, since it was designed to only "throw missiles at the invaders!" This would mean two missile throwers per metre! I would also ask, just what were the "missiles" that were thrown?

Did the 300 throw rocks?, or did they sling stones?, or did they throw darts (if darts, just what were darts?), etc. It seems that it would be fairly easy to defeat such a defense if they only had rocks, darts, stones, spears, etc. to throw at the attackers who would be in a very narrow defile! The invaders would only have to place protection upon one side of their column and would thus be able to repel attacks of this kind! Mere wooden panels, held alongside of wagons and men and animals would thus receive a lot of protection from such an attack!

Is my logic flawed at this point? And just how many missiles were available to be thrown? It seems a determined attacker with enough troops could quickly deplete the missile stores what ever they were if they were only stones, darts, rocks, and spears, etc.!

Just what kind of "missile" could have been used to prevent entry via the road?"

Now, while I might not have posted the sites necessary for one to really persue this line of thought, I would now like to mention that I have found, and lost, one site that proposed that the Phocian Wall, ran parallel to the hot spring river/creek of Thermoplyae! You must note that modern historians show the Phocian Wall as running parallel to the coast line running basically from North to South!

But, if the ancient fortifications ran with the river/creek at its Northern side, then it presents a better line of defense! I.e. river to one side with steep walls, and a road to the Southern side, with steep walls to its back, then it makes more sense!

Perhaps one of you can find the site showing the "wall" existing along side of the river/stream bound side?

The below was posted by me at another section of this site, but I felt that it also belonged here. It concerns the loss of 300 Spartans, but in an entirely different manner!

Sources can be found here; http://www.ask.com/web?&o=101881&l=dis&q=Othryades

"In 547 BC the famous battle of the 600 Logades (Λογάς = chosen soldiers) took place. Each side (Sparta - Argos) had to choose 300 men who would fight each other. The winner should take under his control the valley of Thyrea (Strabo, VII). From this battle 3 people survived: The argeads Alkinor and Chromius and the spartan Othriades. While the argeads headed to Argos to announce happily their victory, Othriades removed the armour of the dead Argeads and with spartan blood he wrote on their bodies "AGAINST THE ARGEADS" and commited a suicide.

When the Argeads returned to recieve the territory, the Spartans did not agree that there was a clear victory. Then a massive battle occured where the Spartans defeated the Argeads and got the possesion of Thyrea once again.

Note can we recognize the word "Argeads" as being, I think, merely another way of spelling "Argives?"

What do you guys think?

It is an interesting death of 300 Spartans in any event!

You know, I feel that not one of one hundred viewers of my above posts actually read them and followed them?

Perhaps that is why modern education is worthless?

Since I effectively mistakenly named this thread, I will now modify its title as being

"THE USE OF 300 (or so) MEN IN MILITARY ACTIONS, BOTH AS WINNERS AND AS LOOSERS!"

Thus for starters I would like you to review this military based post;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pelagonia

Note the mention of exactly "300 Germans!" And note the comedy of finding the missing Duke, hiding under a haystack!

I would ask that you read the entire account.

Next, another battle in this long conflict;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Prinitza

Note, the above account is somewhat different from our famous last stand of 300 Spartans, and others at the Pass.

In the above account, you will notice these words, "the Venetian historian Marino Sanudo.." The key word here being "Sanudo." But the battle itself, one of a small garrison against a much greater attacking force speaks for itself;

"During William's absence, Andravida had been left in the charge of John Katavas, a man known for his bravery but now old and suffering from gout. Although the general outline of the subsequent events is confirmed from the report of the Venetian historian Marino Sanudo, the only detailed account available is the narrative of the Chronicle of the Morea, whose accuracy has been questioned.[7] According to the Chronicle, upon learning of the approach of the imperial army, Katavas took the 300 or 312 men available and marched out to meet the Byzantines, whose numbers are variously given in the Chronicle as 15, 18, or 20 thousand. It is certain that these figures are greatly inflated, and the Byzantine army must have numbered a few thousand at most. Either way, it considerably outnumbered the Latin force.[8]

The Byzantines were confident of their own strength, and were reportedly dancing and singing. At a narrow defile at Prinitza (near Ancient Olympia), Katavas attacked the Byzantine army and inflicted a resounding defeat upon it: many Byzantine soldiers were killed, while the remainder scattered and sought refuge in the surrounding woods. The sebastokrator Constantine himself barely escaped with his life, and fled with the remainder of his troops to the safety of Mystras. Having won a major victory, Katavas prudently refused to pursue the Byzantines and returned to Andravida.[9]"

So, above, 300 to 312 men defeated at least a few thousand. I would like for you to read the entire account.

Hello, to most of you I am a new guy, but to others I am an old banned trouble maker. But, I would ask that you read this entire thread and see if any of you might become troubled in your convictions concerning the reliability of our "consensual" chronology and history.

Regards, Ron

nothing in personal i will do this one day and glad to see you ron im not new guy but for you i thing i will be