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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Translation help needed!
    Posted: 17-Nov-2010 at 15:00
This same topic is also posted in the maps section!

If you could take the time, could one of you who is somewhat of a linguist, please look at it, and do some translation from it?

Here is the map in question;



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/TabulaRogeriana.jpg



Especially these few lines;

The below is taken from the Maps section;

Referencing the above Map, could someone pleast give me a translation of the following places found on the map?

"bahr nilas" and "bahr al hozar", as well as "min al bahr al sami"

I would have thought by now, that someone with the linguistic abilities far beyond my on limited ability, might well have explored the map! But it seems that has not happened! So, I will report to you that if either of the above words can be translated to "River Nile" or "Black Sea", or its Latin cognates, then there exists a real problem with the map!

It would then seem to indicate that their was not a "river" channel existing between the Sea of Mamara (Marmara Denizi) and the Black Sea!

If it is true that the respected scholar who reportedly made the above map, acutally knew his geography, then this omission is insulting to his memory, or perhaps actually portrayed the situation of his times?

Also, via looking closely at the map, can the word "bahr" translate as both "Sea" and "river?"

Thanks for your help!





Edited by opuslola - 17-Nov-2010 at 15:06
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2010 at 22:28
Sorry I wanted to keep this on the first page so this post does so!

Help needed! See above!
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 17:30
Are there no posters here that can translate the map, and my questions above?

Can you Cyrus, or you balochii? Sorry if I mispelled your name!

How about you bai_ulgen?

Edited by opuslola - 18-Nov-2010 at 17:33
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 18:40
Bahr is an Arabic word which means "Sea", "Hozar" is clearly the same "Khazar", we Iranian usually call the Caspian sea with this name, it is difficult to read other words, this is the correct view of the map:
 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 18:56
The name of "Nilas" for the "Black Sea" is strange for me, maybe that is just a mistake, as far as I know Arabs have called this sea as "Asvad" (Black), "Bontosh" (Pontos), "Rus", "Kurz/Kurzian" and "Trabzon".
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:08
Yes placed with North to the top, in the modern manner!

But, are you able to find Istanbul/Constantinople upon it? It seems to resemble Ptolemy's map to a great extent!

India, if there is really an India on the map, seems to not yet be complete, that is there seems to be an island that has yet to collide with the continent and create the mountains! I have seen this in other maps of this era!

Can you find Rome? Or any other of the great cities of the past, such as Damascus, Babylon, Mecca/Makka?, Jerusalem, etc.?

If not, just why would a Islamist like the creator of this map, excluded these holy places?

If you have the ability, please try to maximize the size of the map so you might well be able to read the words?

In the map above do we see the Black Sea named? The Caspian Sea seems much larger and further away from what shoud be the Black Sea than normal? Since at one time they are thought to be connected!

You also, for some reason failed to translate the words "bahr nilas!", why? Do these words have no meaning for you?

How about "min al bahr al sami"? Does this also mean nothing to you?

Note, the above words were all found by me on the map! Why do you suffer not to find them? Is it the lack of modern equipment?

But, thanks anyway!

Opps! I missed one of your posts concerning Nilus! Could it not mean the "NILE?" as in the River NILE?



Edited by opuslola - 18-Nov-2010 at 19:10
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2010 at 19:12
Dear Cyrus why do you think that the only man made edifice shown on the map, to my eyes at least, only show what appears to be the Lighthouse at Alexandria?

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2011 at 15:05
Again, can anyone else on this site translate the words, and make sense of the map?

Regards,

Ron
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2011 at 14:16
Since we now have many new members, perhaps one of you can answer my questions above;

Thus; Again, can anyone else on this site translate the words, and make sense of the map?

Regards,
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2013 at 22:27
Can anyone, now on this site contribute a good translation? It seems
that for years no scholar has responded to my quest! Just what could be the problem? Certainly some of you are way more literate than am I?

So, just where are the scholarly responses?

Ron
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2013 at 23:23
The Black Sea could have been known as bahr nilas, because from time to time it has been known to freeze.
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2013 at 23:51
As the map is upside down, couldn't min al bahr al sami be something like the Aegean?
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2013 at 00:42
I can't read the city names without one single name Heraklia which is Heraclea in this maphttp://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Cities/BlackSeaM.gif
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  Quote yomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2013 at 04:27
well i cant see any map except ollios's map i will be glad the help you guys if i could see the map 
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2013 at 20:42
Yomud, here is the question and the map address.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/TabulaRogeriana.jpg



Especially these few lines;

The below is taken from the Maps section;

Referencing the above Map, could someone pleast give me a translation of the following places found on the map?

"bahr nilas" and "bahr al hozar", as well as "min al bahr al sami"

I would have thought by now, that someone with the linguistic abilities far beyond my on limited ability, might well have explored the map! But it seems that has not happened! So, I will report to you that if either of the above words can be translated to "River Nile" or "Black Sea", or its Latin cognates, then there exists a real problem with the map!

It would then seem to indicate that their was not a "river" channel existing between the Sea of Mamara (Marmara Denizi) and the Black Sea!

If it is true that the respected scholar who reportedly made the above map, actually knew his geography, then this omission is insulting to his memory, or perhaps actually portrayed the situation of his times?

Also, via looking closely at the map, can the word "bahr" translate as both "Sea" and "river?"

Thanks for your help!

Ron
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2013 at 01:42
Originally posted by opuslola


"bahr nilas" and "bahr al hozar", as well as "min al bahr al sami"


Bahr Nilas                    =Black Sea
Bahr al Hozar               =Caspian
Min al Bahr al Sami       = Aegean

this is clear as some friends told before. Word bahr (Arabic) means "something which is relevant with sea"  according to Turkish dictinory

English people use the term Caspian Sea but Turks use word Hazar like similar with Hozar. It comes from Khazars

Originally posted by opuslola


It would then seem to indicate that their was not a "river" channel existing between the Sea of Mamara (Marmara Denizi) and the Black Sea!


???  I don't understand the problem

Here is Marmara Sea (I turned the map)  and there are two channals. Of course, Strait of Istanbul is very shorter then Dardanelles

Marmara water system is prety looking like same in also this map
http://www.gothicstamps.com/inventory/thumbnails/32538t.jpg



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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2013 at 14:37
Originally posted by opuslola


Can you find Rome? Or any other of the great cities of the past, such as Damascus, Babylon, Mecca/Makka?, Jerusalem, etc.?


Can you read the black letters ???


Blue is Heraklia

Red is Constantinopole (I think)

BTW "Bahriyeli" means sailor soldier in Turkish


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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2013 at 20:37
So, Ollios, thanks for the translations! Since I am unable with my limited abilities to expand the examples given here, I must ask you if you see any abnormal names or mentions?

Regards, Ron
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2013 at 13:23

Al Jazira
Azerbaijan
Armenia

Three lakes in Armenia-Turkey-Iran but you have to turn the mapBig smile
http://nvtour.am/pageimages/maps/Armenia-Iran-Turkey-small.jpg

Green city could be Diyarbakır-Amed-Amid

I can also read word Russia(Rüsia in the map) and Denmark (it is very large in the map)



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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2013 at 18:19
Originally posted by Ollios


Originally posted by opuslola

Can you find Rome? Or any other of the great cities of the past, such as Damascus, Babylon, Mecca/Makka?, Jerusalem, etc.?
Can you read the black letters ???Blue is HerakliaRed is Constantinopole (I think)BTW "Bahriyeli" means sailor soldier in Turkish


But Ollios, Istanbul cannot be where you circled it in RED! I am assuming that the Black Sea is at the bottom of the map? Thus Constantinople would be at the beginning of the water connection (on the left side) rather than at the end of it on the right side.

Is the large green area a lake? Certainly there exists no great lakes anywhere near this area today.

Is Heraklia located on the Black Sea or the Sea of Marmara? Or is it located on the Aegean?

Is Mt. Beykos listed anywhere on the map?

Here is one; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heraclea-Pontica.png But it cannot be the one you mentioned/ boxed in.

But the map does not compute as configured.

Perhaps this is it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perinthus


Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 13-Dec-2013 at 20:25
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