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Persians/Arabs in southern China during Tang era
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Posts: 4 		  Quote PChan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Persians/Arabs in southern China during Tang era
    Posted: 26-Oct-2010 at 04:06
I found this interesting story from Wikipedia:
 

Liu Chang

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  Liu Chang (simplified Chinese: 劉鋹; traditional Chinese: 劉鋹; pinyin: Liú Chǎng) (942–980 CE) was the last King of the Kingdom of Southern Han (南漢; pinyin: Nanhan) (917–971) during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period in southern coastal China.

He was originally named Jixing, and had been invested as Prince of Wei. As Cheng's eldest son, he succeeded him. He only left eunuchs in power at court.[1]

When he became Emperor, he was sixteen years old. During the first year of his reign, he was not over sixteen when he had a taste for intercourse with Persian girls.[2] He kept a harem of Persian girls, including one young girl he nicknamed "seductive pig"(媚猪), or "Beautiful Pearl"(媚珠) (Mei Zhu in Pinyin). When he met her he was entranced with her brown skin and wide eyes. He was notorious for his sexual debauchery with her and she was notorious for her sexual appetite with him. She was reportedly skilled in bed, and often defeated and overpowered Liu Chang in bed during intercourse.[3][4][5] Liu and Mei Zhu also forced men and women to engage in intercourse in the Palace, if the men won, they were rewarded, if the women won, she would have the man castrated.[6][7] He had a predilection for Persian girls and wantonly engaged in sexual activity with them in a rear palace at Canton. Having sex and playing with Persian girls took away so much of his time that he never emerged to conduct official affairs.[8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15] When he received four Persian girls, he was in with them all day and night.[16]Since he trusted state affairs to eunuchs, Liu was free to spend his days with Persian girls in his harem.[17]

Liu Chang also had a Persian princess in his harem.[18]

He entrusted a "fox" sorceress, Fan Huzi who stated that the Jade Emperor possessed her. Liu ordered fishermen to dive for pearls for his Persian lover.[19] He also enjoyed naked revels like his uncle Pin.[20]

He was the last Emperor of Southern Han, his kingdom was defeated and taken over by the Song dynasty in 971. He reigned for a total of 14 years.[21]
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Posts: 4 		  Quote PChan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2010 at 04:14
Many Persians/Arabs lived in Guangzhou and Fujian (Quanzhou) during the Tang Dynasty.  Their relations with Chinese must have been quite good for the type of intermarriage and exchange to take place?  Not all were Muslim.  Many were Zoroastrian, Manachaeism, Nestorian Christians, and Jewish too.  This interaction was not just the silk routes of the north, but through the sea routes (via maritime) in the south.
 
It is interesting when they recently checked the mtDNA (maternal genetics) of Guangdong people in China, 1 out of 69 females belong to the mtDNA Haplogroup W (a fairly common one in Iran, Arabia and northern India).
 
I used to have an Uigur friend at work joke to me that the connection between me (a Guangdong person) and him is probably via these Persian/Arab contacts from the past. 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2010 at 10:53
That is interesting, however it doesn't sound good about the Persian girls, Persian-speaking peoples, especially Tajiks, still live in the different parts of China, there is even a Persian village in the east of China: http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2003/July2003/23-07.htm
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Posts: 1152 		  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2010 at 12:17
Yes, there were sizable Persian populations in major Chinese cities. Kaveh Farrokh talks a lot about Persians in China is his book, I'll post more information when I can.
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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Posts: 4 		  Quote PChan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 03:23
During that time many Persian and Arab travelled to China and set up a big community in Canton (Guangzhou).  They were possibly trying to convert this Chinese king to Islam with this gifts of women.  But, it is not certain if they are Muslim because there were also large Zoroastrian refugees communities in China at that time too.  In that time period, many Chinese and Turkish nobility had obvious preference for Aryan/Caucasoid features of Persians and Sogdians.  It is amazing people back then can mix without the racial, social and political prejudice we see and learn today in the West.
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 07:31
PChan, you wrote above;

"It is amazing people back then can mix without the racial, social and political prejudice we see and learn today in the West."

I consider your words both prejediced and designed to impart feelings of superiority. Having travelled in what we Occidentals call the Orient, I found intense "racial, social and political prejudice' thru out the Orient. To deny its existance is like being unable to see one's nose upon one's face!

Real eminity exists between Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, and Vietnamese for example! Even between Chinese and Taiwanese! Not to mention racial suspicion and hatred towards both White and Black westerners!

Perhaps you have not travelled in the Orient as have I? Or perhaps you just learned to expect it and you ignore it?

The so called "West" does not corner the market upon such feelings!

Regards,
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Posts: 1152 		  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 13:30
Originally posted by PChan

During that time many Persian and Arab travelled to China and set up a big community in Canton (Guangzhou).  They were possibly trying to convert this Chinese king to Islam with this gifts of women.  But, it is not certain if they are Muslim because there were also large Zoroastrian refugees communities in China at that time too.  In that time period, many Chinese and Turkish nobility had obvious preference for Aryan/Caucasoid features of Persians and Sogdians.  It is amazing people back then can mix without the racial, social and political prejudice we see and learn today in the West.


There was a significant Persian resistance movement based in China after the Islamic conquest of Persia. Persians, including the son of the last king of Sassanid Persia, with the support of the Chinese emperor, were given command of Chinese armies in Central Asia in order to repel Arab advances.

There were also hopes amongst the Persian nobility that with the support of the Chinese Emperor and a Chinese Army, they could liberate Persia.

Chinese-Persian relations were very strong and friendly.
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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Posts: 589 		  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 21:14
Opusiola - no one thinks there are no prejudices in Orient. You are overreacting. 
My understanding of PChan statement is that these same groups do not get along in the West (as immigrants). 
There was a statement by famous columnist for Chicago Tribune - Mike Royko. He said that if a law passed making illegal for any ethnic group (in Chicago) to hate no more than two ethnic groups, it would be a considerable improvement.
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Posts: 4 		  Quote PChan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2010 at 02:52
I stand by my statement.  It was not too long ago when an Oriental (Far East) man or black man can get lynched just for making a pass at white/Caucasoid women in America and Europe.  To this day, some of that carryover exists.  One can observe the nightlife in major cities to witness this silent segregation.  I have dated a Mexican with "Meditteranean" features and still get awkward stares from others as if I committed a crime or taboo, although we both were considered minorities.
 
The "Silk Route" cultures (Far East, Near East, Central Asia) never went to that extent (ie eugenic/biological emphasis of human differences and implied superiority/inferiority).  You can research history and the present in those parts of the world and never find anything close to what Nazis did, what happened to Native American indigenous, Australian aborigines, etc.  Not even Jenghiz Khan could have topped that score. 
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2010 at 09:19
Originally posted by PChan

 
The "Silk Route" cultures (Far East, Near East, Central Asia) never went to that extent (ie eugenic/biological emphasis of human differences and implied superiority/inferiority). 
Is Japan included in the "Far East" portion fo your statement? 
Originally posted by PChan

what happened to Native American indigenous, Australian aborigines, etc.  Not even Jenghiz Khan could have topped that score. 
Indigenous minority groups in south China were not reated well hiastorically, and were not seen by Hans as equals.  Indigenous Yi and other groups had their land stolen and were pushed into remote mountain areas where they lived in poverty. (similar to Native Americans).
Originally posted by PChan

I stand by my statement.  It was not too long ago when an Oriental (Far East) man or black man can get lynched just for making a pass at white/Caucasoid women in America and Europe.  To this day, some of that carryover exists. 
You are assuming the tolerant culture that existed along the trade routes also existed through out China. In many areas of China, there were no ethnic minorities.  Those that did exist were pushed out (Yi) or ridiculed as barbarians (Tibetans). Millions of Han towns people and peasants lived (and live) their whole lives with out meeting anybody who was not Han. 
 
Needless to say, it is hard to be rascist when there are no minority groups.  But... one can develop a very rigid class system. Chinese land lords had feudal aiuthority over peasants for centuries longer than the "rascist" west.  I wonder how many Han Chinese land lords truly viewed their Han peasants as being of the same "race" as themselves.  That would make a interesting study.         
Originally posted by PChan

I have dated a Mexican with "Meditteranean" features and still get awkward stares from others as if I committed a crime or taboo, although we both were considered minorities.
I am sure you would have experienced social enlightenment is rural Han areas of China, especially after the recent Turkic vs Han race riots in West China (the area as the old sik road).


Edited by Cryptic - 29-Oct-2010 at 10:18
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Posts: 589 		  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2010 at 11:45
Originally posted by PChan

I stand by my statement.  It was not too long ago when an Oriental (Far East) man or black man can get lynched just for making a pass at white/Caucasoid women in America and Europe.  To this day, some of that carryover exists.  One can observe the nightlife in major cities to witness this silent segregation.  I have dated a Mexican with "Meditteranean" features and still get awkward stares from others as if I committed a crime or taboo, although we both were considered minorities.
 
The "Silk Route" cultures (Far East, Near East, Central Asia) never went to that extent (ie eugenic/biological emphasis of human differences and implied superiority/inferiority).  You can research history and the present in those parts of the world and never find anything close to what Nazis did, what happened to Native American indigenous, Australian aborigines, etc.  Not even Jenghiz Khan could have topped that score. 

This reminds me of statements by Europeans from a while ago. They were commenting on racial strife in US and highlighting the harmony of European societies. It was fine when these societies were homogeneous. I don't think they would make the same comments now. In many ways we experience problems ahead of other societies and find ways to resolve them. 
Utopia and myth of brotherly love among all ethnic and national groups in Asia is just that. If we focus on the Silk Route, we can see hatred among ethnic groups in Afghanistan, riots by ethnic groups in China. I don't think Chinese are that loved in Tibet. 
The dislikes among various asian ethnic groups are more visible in US as there is no equivalent of Chinese communist party or other dictatorial power to maintain the "racial or ethnic harmony".
We  may add South-East Asia to the Silk Route countries and the state of this brotherly love among people of Asia will not change. On top of that we have also casts and some ethic minorities get relegated to the lowest casts. Mao was the biggest killer in the history of XX century. He and his policies were responsible for killing more people than Hitler and Stalin combined. He just focused on killing his own people.
These are interesting quotes:

Originally posted by age.com.au

Religious and racial hatred dividing Afghans has been transferred to Melbourne, with one group of refugees saying they are being persecuted by other ethnic Afghans.

Some Hazara Afghans living in Melbourne on temporary protection visas fear that other members of the Afghan community will tell immigration authorities they are not genuine refugees." 

Originally posted by HRIC (Human Rights in China)

Inadequate protection of cultural identity
As the object of integrationist policies, which are comprised of political, economic and social elements, minorities are under continual threat, both officially-sanctioned and otherwise. Han Chinese settlers now dominate the urban public sphere in autonomous regions, making it difficult for minorities to maintain distinct cultural identities.

  • Decreased use of local languages in the public sphere, as well as the imposition of Mandarin, means that ethnic minority children have limited access to native language or cultural education.

  • The declining availability of ethnic language or cultural education is compounded by an aggressive campaign of Chinese nationalist 'patriotic education', instituted in primary and secondary schools, in addition to centers of religious learning such as monasteries and mosques.
These attempts to assimilate ethnic minorities is occurring in tandem with systematic violations of civil and political rights, making it nearly impossible for ethnic individuals to express their cultural identities publicly.



Edited by cavalry4ever - 29-Oct-2010 at 12:52
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Posts: 1152 		  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2010 at 12:13
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by PChan

 
The "Silk Route" cultures (Far East, Near East, Central Asia) never went to that extent (ie eugenic/biological emphasis of human differences and implied superiority/inferiority). 
Is Japan included in the "Far East" portion fo your statement?


Dont forget, japans racial and imperial ideology was based on Western idea's and their observation of the West.

  
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Posts: 8 		  Quote Danny.T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 04:54
Orient is too broad a word for all types of people  included. There is too much confrontational feelings among each other say Chinese, Koreans and Japanese for example.
For ethnic confrontations inside China it is relatively few with  regard to its officially recognised 56 ethnicities. Basically different ethnicities inside China are tolerant with others as China has a long history of being multi-ethnic.
China is not defined by ethnicity  although it is dominated by Hans but by Chinese culture which could mean multiple cultures  or many sub-culures nowadays.
Border zones among different major ethnic areas are mixed with different ethnics like Szechuen and Yunnan provinces. In Chinese Turkistan ( Xijiang) there are about 15 ethnicities living together.
Chinese Turkistan is always a region that accepts different cultures and peoples blend into one (sooner or later).
In US I think the culture is different although the law protects the rights of different ethnicities. The culture is more protection of your own right (right your own ethnicity) rather than consideration of other ethnicities. That makes  people  in US  confrontational to others ethnicities.
"A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing."
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Posts: 589 		  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 12:29
In response to Danny.T - The Hazara example was from Australia. I tried to come up with examples from outside of US as our society - as you correctly observed may differ from other countries.

Edited by cavalry4ever - 05-Nov-2010 at 12:30
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It is obvious that even in the past, the eastern peoples (Chinese and Turks) had a preference for Caucasoid features in women.  Had it been the Chinese and not Turks been the dominant force in the Silk Route regions, we may perhaps seen a more wider intermixed region of peoples in northern Middle East and Eastern Europe.  They certainly had the numbers to potentially do it.
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