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were central asians caucasians??

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Kanas_Krumesis View Drop Down
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: were central asians caucasians??
    Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 13:07
My opinion is that Turks from Republic of Turkey have Semitic (Turkifified Semitic) origins in their vast majority and too little modern Central Asian (mainly Mongoloid) and Caucasian appearance. Same to the culture. Who can refute me?
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 16:06
Kanas_Krumesis, what do you mean by Semitic? Do you think Syrians, Kurds, Persians and Armenians have Semitic origins too? You have probably seen my pics in this forum, what do you think about me? I'm a Persian, but I think there are also a large number of Syrians, Turks, Kurds and even southern European people who look like me. My cousins live in Italy and they themselves say that Italians think they are originally of Italian descent.
 
This is one of my pics in India:
 
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 22:04
 Cyrus, I don`t want to analyze the appearance of the forum members. It is truth that you look like South Italian or Greek (my personal opinion).
 We also can`t ignore the fact of Arab Conquest of Iran and following colonization, which explain widespread Semitic appearance among modern Iranians. Of course this is not an absolute norm for all Iranians and there are Iranians even with Nordic appearance. This can be explained with Caucasian type of ancient Iranians. Existence of some minimal Caucasian appearance among Turks also can be explain due to Turkization of Eastern Europeans.
 But why Turks look Semitic at all? They pretend to be direct successors of mighty Steppe nation, but obviously they don`t looks like other Central Asian and Turkic nations!? They don`t have similar culture. Among Turks from ex-Ottoman empire Mongoloid appearance is minimal. Yes, they speak Turkic language, but for example Azeri people speak their language since several centuries. They were forced to learn it.
 
 I think that this ordinary Turkish man meets a one to one type of Semitic appearance. Do you agree with me? He is not a typical Italian, I think.
 
 
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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2010 at 01:40
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Kanas_Krumesis, what do you mean by Semitic? Do you think Syrians, Kurds, Persians and Armenians have Semitic origins too? You have probably seen my pics in this forum, what do you think about me? I'm a Persian, but I think there are also a large number of Syrians, Turks, Kurds and even southern European people who look like me. My cousins live in Italy and they themselves say that Italians think they are originally of Italian descent.


Semitic genetic distribution in the populations of the Caucasus as well as Kurds, Persians and others is well documented. According to some theories I read it was claimed that Kurds & Balochis were Iranized Arabs though haplogroups maps show this to be untrue.


 
This is one of my pics in India:
 


you don't look like the average persian i've seen. you look like you could definitely have some hazara or oghuz turkic admixture in you.

you could even pass for hispanic.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 11:12

Kanas_Krumesis, I don't believe in any strong genetic change of Iranian population after the Arab conquest, the fact is that peoples who live in more northern regions look more white than people who live in the southern parts, of course I don't deny the role of genes, I myself had reddish brown hair when I was a child and there are some members of our family who have blue eyes and red hairs, it could be certainly related to mass Indo-European migrations to these regions in the ancient times but we know in modern Turkey, there were also Greeks, Hittites and some other Anatolian peoples and Arabs never conquered Istanbul, so I see no reason that people of Istanbul look like Arabs and other Semitic peoples.


When Cyrus was a child!

Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Semitic genetic distribution in the populations of the Caucasus as well as Kurds, Persians and others is well documented. According to some theories I read it was claimed that Kurds & Balochis were Iranized Arabs though haplogroups maps show this to be untrue.

Therefore that is untrue, as far as I know, other than modern Khuzistan and some southern parts of Iran, Arabs just lived in some parts of Khorasan and there are still some Arab villages in these region, but in other parts of Iran the absolute majority have been always non-Arabs.

Originally posted by PakistaniShield

you don't look like the average persian i've seen. you look like you could definitely have some hazara or oghuz turkic admixture in you.

you could even pass for hispanic.

From Spain to Mongolia, it seems I look like several different peoples!!



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 07-Nov-2010 at 11:17
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  Quote bai_ulgen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 12:12

Wait a minute Cyrus khan :) "Omidvaram haletun khub bashe" :) Maybe I can jump in here?

1- Cryus doesn't look like an average Iranian. That's right, but there are Iranians like him.

2- This thing, about Semitic genes in some modern Iranian population is a fact and was documented. Appearance-wise too, lots of Iranians, Azerbaijanis, Kurds and Baluches resemble Arabs.

What's more, in Avesta (although its language was not Persian, but Eastern Iranic), it goes to describe that Zarathustra "was from people who had blue eyes and fair hairs... and lived in lands of 9-month winter". This is contradictory to the appearance of Iranians. It's TOO strange to see a blue-eyed or blond person in Iran, although I don't deny there are people with blue eyes in Iran. 

3- I guess this is off-topic :)




Edited by bai_ulgen - 07-Nov-2010 at 12:21
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 14:12

Hi bai_ulgen, can you speak Persian? "Sepasgozaram, shoma chetorid?"

1. PakistaniShield said the same thing, I don't know why you say I don't look like an average Iranian, a Mongol looking Hazara, an Oghuz Turk or even a Hispanic but not a Persian?!

2. It is certainly true that Iranians generally look like Arabs, especially Iraqi, Syrian and Lebanese Arabs, of course if you consider them as Arabs.

3. You are right, but it can be related, if we discuss about Iranian peoples, as one of major inhabitants of the Central Asia.

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  Quote bai_ulgen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 15:19

"Kheyli mamnun, migzare" :)


1- I'm only judging by the photo you shared with us. And by the way, speaking of Oghuz here, one should be more precise: Turks of Turkey or Azeris are completely different from Turkmens when it comes to appearance. The same applies to Hazaras: they are a mixture of Turkic and Mongolian tribes; not all of them are like Mongols.

Sorry to change the topic.

3- Yes. 

 



Edited by bai_ulgen - 07-Nov-2010 at 15:20
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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 15:51
This seems to be getting way off topic.

But a couple of points I have to make. @Cyrus when I wrote hispanic it means Spanish people from South America who are of various backgrounds.

I would not say you look Mongoloid, but more Caucasian with some Mongoloid admixture. And your pics as a child are also not surprising. Children especially of Caucasian (Caucasian as in skull type) can many times show light skin, hair and other light features at infancy.

I recently saw photographs of myself as an infant and it showed me having pale Mediterranean complexion with dark brown eyes and that's true for many other Pakistani kids I've seen. SOme kids from northern Pakistan also grow red or blond hair in their first few years but with the hot temperatures of Karachi your skin gets darker.

I remember when I was in Sri Lanka my skin turned almost black.

I think the best way to get back to the main topic which is about Caucasian skulled people in Central Asia is to discuss Scythians, Tocharians and other Caucasianoid people in Central Asia before they were killed off/assimilated by migrating Altaic hordes.

The Uyghurs in China are said to be partly of Tocharian and Turko-Mongol descent. Their features show this to be true as well. The same for certain Mongolians having some Scythian roots in them.

I remember seeing pics of blond haired Mongolians.

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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 15:58
Another thing I forgot to mention before getting back to Caucasian Central Asians is that I don't agree with Cyrus on Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians etc/ being compared to Persians.

I lived in the middle east for up to two years and most of these mentioned people had nordic features. According to what people say is that they are descendants of crusaders who settled there and haplogroup maps show these areas being together with most of western Europe. These peoples by far are much fairer skinned and lighter eyed than Persians.

Ofcourse there are slightly darker ones with more Mediterranean features. Those can be compared more to northern Persians.
And I agree with Cyrus that ethnically they cannot be considered Arab but Arabic speaking.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 17:35
Sorry to interrupt a very good conversation, and one that I read daily, but I would just like to ask a question?

Is there any other reason that Arabic or Muslim women are mostly kept covered other than religious reasons? That is, could there have been a long standing desire to keep the women "white?", or at least not let them tan or get darker due to sunlight?

Hope you understand the reason for the question? Could it be a sexual thing?
For example; Could the religious demands have come about to keep the race of the Sultans or Immans wives or concubines secret from the rest of the society?

By the way Cyrus, it seems that you wear Ray-Bans!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 07-Nov-2010 at 17:39
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 07:50

PakistaniShield, I have visited almost all major cities of Syria and Lebanon on the Mediterranean Sea, such as Sur, Sayda, Beirut, Tripoli, Tartus, Ladhiqiyah, ... the majority of peoples of these regions certainly look like Persians and have even darker skins, I never saw any blonde haired or blue eyed Syrian or Lebanese there.

The fact is that there is a big difference between people of southern and northern Iran, I think people who live in Mazandaran province, like in Larijan, look even more white than some Europeans, this pic show Dr. Larijani, the current chairman of Parliament of Iran, Javier Solana and some Germans in Berlin: source

 
Bashu - The little stranger
BASHU is a fantastically directed and acted dramatic movie about a ten-year-old Iranian boy who lost his family in southern Iran during the war. His village was bombed. He sneaks into the back of a truck to get out of the war area. Traveling north, he ends up in the beautifully green areas of the northern Iran (by the Caspian Sea), where he faces suspicious villagers who distrust him because of his dark face and southern dialect. A young woman villager (Susan Taslimi) takes him in, and the story begins.
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 08-Nov-2010 at 08:15
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 09:43

Ali Ardashir Larijani is a great example of Iranian who doesn`t have Semitic appearance. European face type, blond hair, blue eyes and pale skin. He looks like Russian to me. Exactly, as his name explain, his family origin from North Iran (Mazandaran), from village of Larijan. Cyrus , may be I`am wrong, but as I know North Iran fell last under Arab control and even after that hardly resisted against Arab influence.

 


Edited by Kanas_Krumesis - 08-Nov-2010 at 09:46
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 10:34
The dark appearence of South Iranians is most likely due to the Elamite and Kassite ancestory.  What might be called semetic look might of already been present before the arrival of the Aryans.  

Like for example the Persian singer Arash who was born in Fars.  He looks more like Indians then he does Iranians. 

 http://odimusic.net/download/uploads/posts/2008-03/1206060575_arash1lt2.jpg
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 12:05
The nearest part of Iran to the Central Asia is Turkmensahra, it means "Plain of Turkmens", and the majority of the people are certainly Turkmens, you can find a large number of pics of the people of this region in this website: http://www.turkmensahra.com/
 
As you see, they mostly look like Turkic peoples, for example:
 
110- "Saffar-Mohammad-e-Mohammadi" a smuggler from the Tekkč tribe
 

183- A young girl from a town dwelling Turkman family. 
 
168- Makhtoum Qoli, the sixth generation descendant of Makhtoum Qoli Faraghi, the much loved Turkman poet, sitting under a portrait of the poet.  Garkaz.  Jargalân. 
 
But some of them are different, like this one:
 
175- Young girls help run the house from early childhood Gozbâshi village.
 
Some pics of a wedding ceremony in this region: http://www.mehrnews.com/fa/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=657329
 
As you in the first pic, some people really look different than others:
 
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 08-Nov-2010 at 12:07
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 13:17
Originally posted by Ince

The dark appearence of South Iranians is most likely due to the Elamite and Kassite ancestory.  What might be called semetic look might of already been present before the arrival of the Aryans.  

Like for example the Persian singer Arash who was born in Fars.  He looks more like Indians then he does Iranians.  
 
It seems that the most Caucasian looking people in modern Fars region are the nomadic tribes of Qashqai. Today this people speak Turkic language, but I think that thay were Turkicized. Nomadic lifestyle always create closed society with strong traditions about blood purity within tribal group.
 
 
 
 
 
According Herodotus:
 
 "The Persian nation contains a number of tribes [...]: the Pasargadae, Maraphii, and Maspii, upon which all the other tribes are dependent. [...]: Other tribes are the Panthialaei, Derusiaei, Germanii, all of which are attached to the soil, the remainder -the Dai, Mardi, Dropici, Sagarti, being nomadic."
 
Even in the zenith of Acheamenid Iran some tribes from ruling elite remained nomadic. Qashqai are masters in production of carpets, something quite typical about ancient Iranic and Scythian tribes.
 
Qashqai carpet
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 14:06
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

Originally posted by Ince

The dark appearence of South Iranians is most likely due to the Elamite and Kassite ancestory.  What might be called semetic look might of already been present before the arrival of the Aryans.  

Like for example the Persian singer Arash who was born in Fars.  He looks more like Indians then he does Iranians.  
 
It seems that the most Caucasian looking people in modern Fars region are the nomadic tribes of Qashqai. Today this people speak Turkic language, but I think that thay were Turkicized. Nomadic lifestyle always create closed society with strong traditions about blood purity within tribal group.
 
 
 
 
 
According Herodotus:
 
 "The Persian nation contains a number of tribes [...]: the Pasargadae, Maraphii, and Maspii, upon which all the other tribes are dependent. [...]: Other tribes are the Panthialaei, Derusiaei, Germanii, all of which are attached to the soil, the remainder -the Dai, Mardi, Dropici, Sagarti, being nomadic."
 
Even in the zenith of Acheamenid Iran some tribes from ruling elite remained nomadic. Qashqai are masters in production of carpets, something quite typical about ancient Iranic and Scythian tribes.
 
Qashqai carpet


I think they were definantly Turkified Persians and other Iranian tribes that got Turkified along the way like the Parthians.  They also seem to dress and have similar culture similar to that of the nomadic Lors.   The real Turks in the North of East of Iran look totally different to the ones in Fars.   I read somewhere can't remember whare that many Persians tribes fled to West iran/Zagros from the Arabs and then the Turk/Mongol invasians and settled among Kurds and Lors and eventually assimilated into them if anyone knows if thats true?.

Here is a wax work of Qashqai tribal people, notice that their clothes are simialr to that of Lors?
http://travels.sfsepehr.com/images/Fars/P6060617P.jpg


Edited by Ince - 08-Nov-2010 at 14:49
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  Quote bai_ulgen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 14:15

"The real Turks in the North of West of Iran look totally different to the ones in Fars."


If you mean Azeris, they are not "real Turks", they are also Turkified.   

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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 14:24
Originally posted by bai_ulgen

"The real Turks in the North of West of Iran look totally different to the ones in Fars."


If you mean Azeris, they are not "real Turks", they are also Turkified.   



I mean the ones from Golestan province and Khorasan province.


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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 14:41
Heres a picture of my grandmother and family from my Village, my Grandmother is the one wearing the head scarf, she was  a Turkmen of the Kizilibash, which was the reason my grandfather married her due to the similar religion of Alevi.  I am Kurd from Malatya,Turkey.  It is believed in my town and sourounding related towns that our ancestors came from Khorasan.

http://oi56.tinypic.com/zyhvg5.jpg


Heres is a picture of my brother when he was a young, he has more asiatic features then I do.
 
 



Heres a picture of me when I was young with my mother and a relative.
http://oi56.tinypic.com/2cz4nrm.jpg
Edited upon request of Ince Red Clay


Edited by red clay - 05-May-2011 at 23:37
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