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Tribal states vs feudal states in 10-11th century

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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tribal states vs feudal states in 10-11th century
    Posted: 30-Sep-2010 at 10:45
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus I

 
Are you really this silly-Where do you think the name Rugia came from? Where did it come from. It was named for the Eastern Germanic tribe the Rugii, they ruled there until the 5th century (they were weakened by half the ribe going to Austria, and there llies the Brugndi leaving west cent Europe. but we do know that a kingdom of Burgandi stayed in the Rugi area according to the sagas) as the rulers, they were conqurerd by the Rani, and were Salvized
 
 
Im not so sure about it. We have no contemporary sources and claiming that one small tribe lived on one small island for 1000 years, that was conquered by Slavic tribe that adopted their name and mixed with them is for me just a pure speculation....
 
 
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus I

 
 
Further if the Slavs did indeed ever join the Joms they would have had to give up the Slavic god and embarce Thor and Odin, becuase it was also well known that is wht the Jomsvikings built the fortress, to preserve thier warrior culture and devotion to their gods, norse paganism. So if that is why the built it, so why would they let slav paganism in?
 
 
 
I dont see the problem which you see here. Both pagan religions - slavic and nordic were politeistic. One didnt have to stop belive in his own gods to worship Odin and Thor. Not to mention that many deities of slavs and nordics were very similar - nordic Odin = slavic Perun. It wasnt christianity where worshiping 1 God was making people unable to worship other Gods.
 
 
Good point Mosquito, politistic people were much more tolerant of each other's God.  Knowing the difference between these people and those who worship the God of Abraham, makes me regret we are no longer politistic people.  Imaging living without religious persecution and having true freedom of religion, without having to have laws to protect it.  Wouldn't that be more open minded and Misquito, are you suggesting people might have mingled without antagonism?
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2010 at 15:24
Originally posted by Athena

Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus I

 
Are you really this silly-Where do you think the name Rugia came from? Where did it come from. It was named for the Eastern Germanic tribe the Rugii, they ruled there until the 5th century (they were weakened by half the ribe going to Austria, and there llies the Brugndi leaving west cent Europe. but we do know that a kingdom of Burgandi stayed in the Rugi area according to the sagas) as the rulers, they were conqurerd by the Rani, and were Salvized
 
 
Im not so sure about it. We have no contemporary sources and claiming that one small tribe lived on one small island for 1000 years, that was conquered by Slavic tribe that adopted their name and mixed with them is for me just a pure speculation....
 
 
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus I

 
 
Further if the Slavs did indeed ever join the Joms they would have had to give up the Slavic god and embarce Thor and Odin, becuase it was also well known that is wht the Jomsvikings built the fortress, to preserve thier warrior culture and devotion to their gods, norse paganism. So if that is why the built it, so why would they let slav paganism in?
 
 
 
I dont see the problem which you see here. Both pagan religions - slavic and nordic were politeistic. One didnt have to stop belive in his own gods to worship Odin and Thor. Not to mention that many deities of slavs and nordics were very similar - nordic Odin = slavic Perun. It wasnt christianity where worshiping 1 God was making people unable to worship other Gods.
 
 
Good point Mosquito, politistic people were much more tolerant of each other's God.  Knowing the difference between these people and those who worship the God of Abraham, makes me regret we are no longer politistic people.  Imaging living without religious persecution and having true freedom of religion, without having to have laws to protect it.  Wouldn't that be more open minded and Misquito, are you suggesting people might have mingled without antagonism?
 
Actually I see I made a mistake. Slavic Perun was similar not to Odin but to Thor.
 
As for the antagonism - I belive that there were no religious conflicts. For example it is well known that Vikings - who in the east were known as Varangian's, created or at least played a some role in the creation of the state known as Rus or Kievan Rus. As they were in minority soon they adopted slavic language and slavic pagan religion. I think its moreless similar to Greeks and Romans who had similar Gods, on the begining more different, later mixed in almost the same Gods, who were only named different eg Zeus/Jovius, Ares/Mars.
 
 The legend says that eastern slavic tribes were invaded by Varangians who forced them to pay tribute. But the slavs revolted and sent away the Vikings over the sea without tribute. After that they started to fight one tribe against other for hegemony but noone was able to deafeat the rest just like between the western Slavs in Germany where no tribe was able to become the ruling one. So instead making confederation like in the west, they decided to send envoys to Varangians and to choose one of them for their prince, to rule them all. They brought from Sweden a viking named Rurik and his wariors, no one knows how many. Rurik became a prince and his descendant Oleg was official founder of Rus. They interrmarried with local slavic population, forgott their language, adopted slavic names and religion, what led to creation of one of most powerfull states in early Europe, which was able to fight and defeat the Byzantines, Khazars and Bulgars.
 
So in the early Poland the legend of noble Awdaniec familly says that its founder was a Scandinavian viking named Audun (Treasure). In the 10th century he came to Poland with his wariors and offered his services to Polish rulers. In exchange for his loyal service, he and his men recived land and power, getting the highest offices in the early monarchy. The name "Audun" changed into Polish "Awdaniec" and most popular name was "Skarbek" (Treasure in Polish).
One of more popular names in Awdaniec familly was Wilk and Wilczek (Wolf and Wolf Cub)
and on the territory of Awdaniec familly was created village named "Wargawa" (scandinavian Vargar - wolf). Also there were villages named "Besiekier" and "Besiekierza" which probably come from snadinavian words: "berserkr" and "berserkir" - mad menfighting in bear's skin.

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Mosquito - 30-Sep-2010 at 16:14
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2010 at 16:16
Cryptic, I think some of your ideas are right and some are seem off are the mark.   Do you have any examples to offer, to support what you have said?  Or in keeping with this thread, exactly what the differences between tribal order and feudal order?
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2010 at 18:30

Originally posted by Athena

Cryptic, I think some of your ideas are right and some are seem off are the mark.   Do you have any examples to offer, to support what you have said?  Or in keeping with this thread, exactly what are the differences between tribal order and feudal order?

How about tribal relationships are based on personally knowing one another.  That is an intimate knowing of who is born to whom and really knowing these people and their relatioships.  Under feudal order that personal quality has changed with differences in power and social status assigned to people who do not really know each other, right?  In the early tribe, the leader is dependent on being choosen the leader, because there is nothing but his personal qualities to justify him being the leader.  In all other ways, he is equal to all others, and his leadership depends on the willingness of followers.  At some point  this becomes a matter of power over the people, instead of a personal choice.   Someone, who for some reason I do not understand, has more power than the others, and agrees to give a peice of land, to those who go to war for him.   This is a different quality of relationships and warfare,  rather than when it is brothers, fathers and sons, and extended familywho share the land in common, and engage wars without one gaining more power over the land than the others.  therefore, they do not have power over each other to give or without hold land.   None comes out of war a feudal king whose power is increased by war. 

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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2010 at 10:33
Originally posted by Athena

Cryptic, I think some of your ideas are right and some are seem off are the mark.   Do you have any examples to offer, to support what you have said?  Or in keeping with this thread, exactly what the differences between tribal order and feudal order?
 
Here is one possible example
 
Personal autonomy: Nomadic Apaches could chose as individuals whether to follow Geronimo as a war leader on raids.  As Geronimo crossed the fuzzy line between guerilla warfare and banditry (especially after one particular incident), many warriors in his band refused to serve under him.  In addition, Apache bands were autonomous from each other and had to be negotiated with seperatly.
 
Meanwhile, agricultural Pueblo Indians and more sedentary Navahos could be negotiated with as complete tribes.   This is doubly so for the city dwelling settled Aztecs. I really doubt that Aztec warriors could refuse service after a commander committed a war crime.
 
Another semi comparison would be Israel in 1948:
 
Israelis:  Fought European style with mass conscription, established units, standard supplies etc.
 
More tribal or clan oriented arabs: Fought as clans, not units.  Individual clans could leave the fight at will, conduct sperate negotiations, conscription was frowned upon (individual fighters had more leeway in chosing when they served and who they served with), clans made their own supply arrangements (or lack there of).
 
Originally posted by Athena

How about tribal relationships are based on personally knowing one another.  That is an intimate knowing of who is born to whom and really knowing these people and their relatioships.  Under feudal order that personal quality has changed with differences in power and social status assigned to people who do not really know each other, right? 
Good points.  This lack of personal relationship also made large scale wars more likely.  Leaders of small tribal societies are likely to personally know casualties and their families.  As a result, they are more likely to limit warfare to raids.
 
Also, when the capture of territitory is the goal, total warfare is more likely as the combatants are not going to be satisfied with victories that simply restore honor or gain revenge for past raids etc.
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 05-Oct-2010 at 10:56
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2010 at 11:27
Cryptic, now that was some very good explaining.  Many years ago, I began contemplating the difference between raiding parties and territorial wars.  In his way, Genghis Khan was engaging in territorial wars, razing villages to the ground to return them to pasture land, before the Chinaman convinced him to harvest the villages and cities. 
 
Especially when I got into Greek history, I realized the interplay between military order and social order.  All Spartan males were in the military when they came of age, and as firm control was held over their lives in military formation, as in their daily lives.  These folks did not have liberty, as the folks of Athens had liberty.  On Athenian ships everyone had to work together, but in their daily lives, each one was on his own.   To some degree their government did organize them into a working economy, but not a an overly controlling way.  Feudal lords assumed control over everything, as though it were all their property, including the humans, right? 
 
Where are the people who started this thread?  
 
Can we assume feudalism is very much about land ownership?  What do you think Cryptic?  Going on what you said of small tribes likely knowing each other, and therefore very limited warfare, more like a rough game of foot ball, than real war, can we assume feudalism is the result of invaders who have no personal ties with the invaded people claiming the land as their own, and allowing others to live on it, so long as they prove useful?  I don't think these owners of land, would be the origin tribal people who shared land like a family.   Tribes can have territory, but isn't the territory shared in common?  Not at all like a landlord over the serfs. 
 


Edited by Athena - 05-Oct-2010 at 11:37
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2010 at 16:11
Originally posted by Athena

Feudal lords assumed control over everything, as though it were all their property, including the humans, right?  
 
Yes, especially in early feudalism.  The feudal lord was seen as an intermediary for God. The French had the term of  "droit de seigneur" (right of the lord). In theory, a feudal lord owned the virginity of women. Though  enforced claims on wedding night virginity were rare or non existant (usually it was coercion / customary tribute of sexual favors), the core concept was that the feudal lord owned everything.
 
In practice, feudal lords had less "ownership" over knights, clergy and merchants than serfs.  The Maga Carta in 1225 was the first post classical era European document that placed at least token limitations on feudal power and provided a token concept of individual rights.
 
 
Originally posted by Athena

Can we assume feudalism is very much about land ownership?   
I agree competely.  With the collapse of trade and Roman era manufacturing, land was the only source of wealth and capital in the early feudal period.
 
I think the early feudal period was the "perfect storm" for land based feudalism.  The economy was advanced enough to give some one with absolute owenrship of land tangibe wealth (where as the economics of most tribal societies did not) yet feudal Europe as not advanced enough to offer other options.
 
Originally posted by Athena

can we assume feudalism is the result of invaders who have no personal ties with the invaded people claiming the land as their own, and allowing others to live on it, so long as they prove useful?  I don't think these owners of land, would be the origin tribal people who shared land like a family.  
Possibly, absolute authoritarian rule and imposing alien concepts about ownership is psychologicaly easier when you do not have a connection to the under class.
 
But then, many original feudal lords were probably opportunistic  tribal cheiftains or clan leaders who pledged allegiance to an over lord and then latched on to the idea of private property. The new lords could then lessen the psychological impact of ruling over once autonomous clan members by making key relatives "knights".
Originally posted by Athena

   Tribes can have territory, but isn't the territory shared in common?  Not at all like a landlord over the serfs. 
In almost all cases, yes. In the Americas, some very large empire building tribes such as Aztecs and Incas may of had the concept of individual land ownership but these were the exception and not the rule.  Likewise some Chinese minority tribal members had serf systems (probably copied from the Han Chinese), but almost all other indigenous tribal peoples in Australia, New Guinea, Phillipines, Indonesia and else where had communal property. 


Edited by Cryptic - 05-Oct-2010 at 16:38
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2010 at 16:38
And just whom determined who worked the fields? Just what was done to "lazy Larry" or "lazy Loretta" who mostly avoided their share of the work? Did most everyone else just leave it to "hungry Harry" or "hungry Harriata?" to take care of the communal farm?

Maybe the industrious persons did not own the property for their own, but they could claim, at least as far as force "might make" well, a greater share of the crops? I.e. or E.g., "I worked harder, and longer than "lazy Larry" and thus I deserve more of the benefits!"

As most of you well know, communal property only seems to work well in either/or highly religious and forced environments! So, communal farms, etc., worked for religious groups of nuns or friars, etc.! But, in those cases one was graded by a "superior!", as well as their fellows! Those that did not work hard enough were either punished or thrown out!

In many cases, being thrown out was basically a death sentence!

Just a few points!

Edited by opuslola - 05-Oct-2010 at 16:39
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2010 at 21:06
Originally posted by Athena

Cryptic, now that was some very good explaining.  Many years ago, I began contemplating the difference between raiding parties and territorial wars.  In his way, Genghis Khan was engaging in territorial wars, razing villages to the ground to return them to pasture land, before the Chinaman convinced him to harvest the villages and cities. 
 
Especially when I got into Greek history, I realized the interplay between military order and social order.  All Spartan males were in the military when they came of age, and as firm control was held over their lives in military formation, as in their daily lives.  These folks did not have liberty, as the folks of Athens had liberty.  On Athenian ships everyone had to work together, but in their daily lives, each one was on his own.   To some degree their government did organize them into a working economy, but not a an overly controlling way.  Feudal lords assumed control over everything, as though it were all their property, including the humans, right? 
 
Where are the people who started this thread?  
 
Can we assume feudalism is very much about land ownership?  What do you think Cryptic?  Going on what you said of small tribes likely knowing each other, and therefore very limited warfare, more like a rough game of foot ball, than real war, can we assume feudalism is the result of invaders who have no personal ties with the invaded people claiming the land as their own, and allowing others to live on it, so long as they prove useful?  I don't think these owners of land, would be the origin tribal people who shared land like a family.   Tribes can have territory, but isn't the territory shared in common?  Not at all like a landlord over the serfs. 
 
 
I think it was different for different countries which we can in my opinion divide on 2 different groups:
 
1. The countries which were former Roman provinces, where actually feudalism did start before the fall of the empire, where came barbarian tribes of Franks, Visigoths, Longobardians and others. Actually they have inherrited this early feudalism after Romans and it did evolved farther. In the Roman empire it was known as "colonatus". Those countries already had big population and invaders became its masters, replacing old Roman masters - except for those who started to serve to the new barbarian king instead of emperor because part of the land was left in the hands of old roman powerful famillies.
 
 
2. The countries which were not within the borders of Roman empire imported it together with christianity. Like Hungary, Denmark or Poland, with rather small population and big forested areas.
 
The begining of the "knights" class were horse soldiers of the prince who was paying them with his own money, what was guaranting him the loyalty of the soldiers and hegemony over the rest of the society. In slavic countries those soldiers were called "Druzhina". Later they changed into knights - feudal lords who had land and their paesants.
 
In those tribal countries covered mostly by forests where population was free, the paesants or rather their lack was a problem so the wars and raids were not only an opportunity for plunder and getting loot to pay the soldiers of druzhyna but also an opportunity to get the prisoners and settle them on the land given to soldiers - later knights. For example Mieszko II king of Poland commited 2 devastating raids in Saxony in years 1028 and 1030 when he plundered and burned hundrieds of villages but also captured about 9000 people whom brought to Poland. Another example is bohemian prince Bretislaus I who in year 1038 invaded Poland during civil war and interregnum, and captured city of Giecz, taking all its inhabittants into slavery and settling them in Bohemia. So there was no mass killing of the enemies but rather stealing people and moving them to the country of invaders.
 
 
From Wikipedia:
 
Druzhina
 
Druzhina, Drużyna or Družyna (Russian and Ukrainian: Дружи́на, Druzhýna) in the history of early East Slavs and West Slavs was a detachment of select troops in personal service of a chieftain, later knyaz. Its original functions were bodyguarding, raising tribute from the conquered territories and serving as the core of an army during war campaigns. For example, at the Battle of Lake Peipus the army of the Novgorod Republic had about 5000 men in all , and around 3000 men in both the cavalry and infantry, were part of Alexander Nevsky's druzhina. The druzhina organization varied with time and survived in one form or another until the 16th century.

The name is derived from the Slavic word drug (друг) with the meaning of "companion, friend". It is a cognate of the Germanic drottin (Proto-Germanic *druhtinaz) meaning "war band".

Archaeological excavations suggest that druzhinas existed in the region as far back as the 6th and 7th centuries.

Druzhinniks (members of the druzhina) served freely. At any moment any of them could leave one knyaz and join another one. Modern estimates of sizes of a druzhina match that of ibn Fadlan's: sizes varied, but never exceeded several hundred persons. During military campaigns a druzhina was a nucleus of the troops formed by means of a kind of levy.

A druzhina was paid by a knyaz, and received a share of military loot. For example Abraham ben Jacob who traveled in 961–62 in Central Europe, mentions that the drużyna of Polish Mieszko I had 3000 men, paid by duke.[1]

In the 11th and 12th centuries the druzhina separates into two layers: elder druzhina, also called better druzhina or fore druzhina, and younger druzhina. The elder druzhina consisted of knyaz's men (княжие мужи) who eventually became boyars. They held higher military and civil positions (posadnik, Voivode) and were advisors of a knyaz.

In addition to military service, druzhinniks of the younger druzhina (called otroki or gridni) ran errands for a knyaz and served as his bodyguards. Younger druzhina did not take part in knyaz's councils, with the exception of military ones, which had a very broad representation.

Manuscripts mention that elder druzhinniks had their own personal druzhinas.

Starting in the 12th century in northern principalities, a land-endowed military class had formed from druzhina.

 
 


Edited by Mosquito - 06-Oct-2010 at 05:35
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 07:04
In the years 960-970 Jewish merchant from arabic Spain, known as  Abraham ben Jacob/Ibrâhîm ibn Ya`qûb , travelled to Italy, Germany and Slavic countries in the northern Europe. He was also recived on the audience by emperor Otto I. He probably went to Slavic countries to buy slaves but it is said that after christianisation of Poland the slave trade has fallen because christian priests were against it and Polish ruler if wanted to be christian had to follow their rules.
 
He wrote a relation about his travel which i try to translate into english:
 
"As for the country ruled by Mesko (Mieszko I of Poland) it is the biggest of all them (slavic countries). There is a lot of honey, meat and (agriculture or fish). All the taxes the Mesko collects are being spent to pay his soldiers. He got 3000 armoured soldiers and 100 of them is worth as much as 1000 other soldiers. He gives them cloths, horses, arms, armours and everything whatever they need. If one of them got a child Mesko is paying him since his birth."
 
So according to Abraham/Ibrahim - the prince was paying for everything what needed soldiers of his Druzyhna. So transfering to feudalism - giving the land to his soldiers and demanding from them to live from the land they got was much cheaper for the prince.
 
Next i found part about Veletii-Luticii:
 
"West from them lives Slavic tribe called Welteba [Veletii]. They live in the forests near the border with Mesko. They got powerfull city at the ocean side (Baltic sea) which has 12 gates. They make wars with Mesko and their power is great. They have no king and they dont give power to one man. The power over them is held by Elders."


Edited by Mosquito - 06-Oct-2010 at 07:06
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 10:46

William Smith, D.C.L., LL.D.:
A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, John Murray, London, 1875.

COLONAʹTUS, COLONI. The Coloni of the later Imperial period formed a class of agriculturists, whose condition has been the subject of elaborate investigation.

These Coloni were designated by the various names of Coloni, Rustici, Originarii, Adscriptitii, Inquilini, Tributarii, Censiti. A person might become a Colonus by birth, with reference to which the term Originarius was used. When both the parents were Coloni and belonged to the same master, the children were Coloni. If the father was a Colonus and the mother a slave, or conversely, the children followed the condition of the mother. If the father was free and the mother a Colona, the children were Coloni and belonged to the master of the mother. If the father was a Colonus and the mother free, the children before the time of Justinian followed the condition of the father: afterwards Justinian declared such children to be free, but finally he reduced them to the condition of Coloni. If both parents were Coloni and belonged to different masters, it was finally settled that the masters should divide the children between them, and if there was an odd one, it p312should go to the owner of the mother. If a man lived for thirty years as a Colonus, he became the Colonus of the owner of the land on which he lived; and though he was still free, he could not leave the land: and a man who had possessed for thirty years a colonus belonging to another, could defend himself against the claims of the former owner by the Praescriptio triginta annorum. A constitution of Valentinian III declared how free persons might become Coloni by agreement; and though there is neither this nor any similar recognition in the Code of Justinian, there is a passage which apparently recognizes that persons might become Coloni by such agreement (Cod. XI. tit. 47 s22).

The Coloni were not slaves, though their condition in certain respects was assimilated to that of slaves; a circumstance which will explain their being called servi terrae, and sometimes being contrasted with liberi. They had, however, connubium, which alone is a characteristic that distinguished them clearly from slaves (Cod. XI. tit. 47 s24). But, like slaves, they were liable to corporal punishment, and they had no right of action against their master, whose relation to them was expressed by the term Patronus (Cod. Theod. V. tit. 11). The colonus was attached to the soil, and he could not be permanently separated from it by his own act, or by that of his patronus or by the consent of the two. The patronus could sell the estate with the coloni, but neither of them without the other (Cod. XI. tit. 47 s2. 7). He could, however, transfer superabundant coloni from one to another of his own estates. When an estate held in common was divided, married persons and relations were not to be separated. The ground of there being no legal power of separating the coloni and the estate was the opinion that such an arrangement was favourable to agriculture, and there were also financial reasons for this rule of law, as will presently appear. The only case in which the colonus could be separated from the land was that of his becoming a soldier, which must be considered to be done with the patron's consent, as the burden of recruiting the army was imposed on him, and in this instance the state dispensed with a general rule for reasons of public convenience.

The colonus paid a certain yearly rent for the land on which he lived: the amount was fixed by custom and could not be raised; but as the landowner might attempt to raise it, the colonus had in such case for his protection a right of action against him, which was an exception to the general rule above stated (Cod. XI. tit. 47 s5). There were, however, cases in which the rent was fixed by agreement.

A further analogy between the condition of Servi and Coloni appears from the fact of the property of Coloni being called their Peculium. It is however, distinctly stated that they could hold property (Cod. Theod. V. tit. 11); and the expressions which declare that they could have nothing "propria" (Cod. XI. tit. 49 s2) seem merely to declare that it was not propria in the sense of their having power to alienate it, at least without the consent of their patroni. It appears that a colonus could make a will, and that if he made none, his property went to his next of kin; for if a bishop, presbyter, deacon, &c., died intestate and without kin, his property went to the church or convent to which he belonged, except such as he had as a colonus, which went to his patronus, who with respect to his ownership of the land is called Dominus possessionis (Cod. Theod. V tit. 3). Some classes of Coloni had a power of alienating their property (Cod. XI. tit. 47 s23).

The land-tax due in respect of the land occupied by the colonus was paid by the dominus; but the coloni were liable to the payment of the poll-tax, though it was paid in the first instance by the dominus who recovered it from the colonus. The liability of the colonus to a poll-tax explains why this class of persons was so important to the state, and why their condition could not be changed without the consent of the state. It was only when the colonus had lived as a free man for thirty years that he could maintain his freedom by a praescriptio, but Justinian abolished this praescriptio, and thus empowered the dominus to assert his right after any lapse of time (Cod. XI. tit. 47 s23). With respect to their liability to the poll-tax, the coloni were called tributarii, censiti or censibus obnoxii, adscriptitii, adscriptitiae conditionis, and censibus adscripti. This term adscriptio appears to have no reference to their being attached to the land, debate it refers to their liability to the poll-tax as being rated in the tax-books, and accordingly we find that the Greek term for Adscriptitius is Ἐναπόγραφος.

As the Coloni were not servi, and as the class of Latini and peregrini hardly existed in the later ages of the Empire, we must consider the Coloni to have had the Civitas, such as it then was; and it is a consequence of this that the they had connubium generally. A constitution of Justinian, however (Nov. 22 c17), declared the marriage of a colonus, who belonged to another person, and a free woman to be void. The Constitution does not seem to mean any thing else than that in this case the Emperor took away the Connubium, whether for the reasons stated by Savigny, or for other reasons, is immaterial. This special exception, however, proves the general rule as to Connubium.

The origin of these Coloni is uncertain. They appear to be referred to in one passage of the Digest (Dig. 30 s112), under the name of Inquilinus, a term which certainly was sometimes applied to the whole class of Coloni. The passage states, that if a man bequeaths, as a legacy, the inquilini without the praedia to which they adhere (sine praediis quibus adhaerent), it is a void legacy. Savigny conceives that this passage may be explained without considering it to refer to the Coloni of whom we are speaking; but the explanation that he suggests, seems a very forced one, and the same remark applies to his explanation of another passage in the Digest (Dig. 50 tit. 15 s4). The condition of the old Clients seems to bear some relation to that of the Coloni, but all historical traces of one class growing out of the other are entirely wanting.

Savigny observes that he does not perceive any historical connection between the villeins (villani) of modern Europe and the Coloni, though there is a strong resemblance between their respective conditions. There were, however, many important distinctions; for instance, the villein services due to the lord had nothing corresponding to them in the case of the Coloni, so far as we know. Some modern writers would hastily infer an historical connection of institutions which happen to have p313resemblances. Littleton's Tenures, section 172, &c., and Bracton (fol. 6. 24), may be consulted as to the incidents of Villeinage.

This view of the condition of the Coloni is from Savigny's Essay on the subject, which is translated in the Philological Museum, vol. II.

The question of the origin of these Coloni is examined at great length by A. W. Zumpt, Ueber die Entstehung und historische Entwickelung des Colonats (Rheinisches Museum für Philologie, Neue Folge, 1845). The author is of opinion that the origin of the institution is to be traced to the settlement of Germanic people by the Roman emperors within the limits of the empire. The earliest mention of Coloni, in the sense in which his essay treats of them, is, as he states, a constitution of Constantine A.D. 321 (Cod. Theod. 9. tit. 21 s1, 2) which, however, gives no information about their condition. But a later constitution of Constantine, A.D. 332 (Cod. Theod. 5. tit. 9, de fugitivis colonis) does give some information. The condition of these foreign settlers being once established, the author supposes that poor Roman citizens might enter into this condition, partly induced by the advantage of getting land, and partly, as he states, though it is not clearly explained, by legal compulsion. A constitution of Theodosius the Younger (Cod. Theod. 5 tit. 4, de bonis militum, s3, ed. Wenck), contains some valuable information on the colonization or settlement of the barbarians, and declares them to belong to the condition expressed by the term Colonatus. The term colonus often occurs in the writers who are excerpted in the Digest (41 tit. 2 s30 §5; 19 tit. 2 s3, 9 §3; 19 tit. 1 s13 §30, and elsewhere); but these Coloni are supposed to be merely a kind of tenants. The passage in the Digest (30 s112) which cites a constitution of Marcus Aurelius and Commodus, is supposed, by Zumpt, to mean ordinary tenants (miether, pächter); but it must be admitted, that it is rather difficult to accept this explanation, as already observed. The word Colonatus, it is stated, does not occur in the Digest; but that negative fact proves little. The most probable solution of the question is, that the condition of the Coloni mentioned in the Digest was the model of the condition of the barbarians who were settled in the Roman empire; and it is no objection to this, that the condition of the barbarians might be made more burdensome and less free than that of the Coloni, who already existed. Nor is it against this supposition, if the condition of the barbarian Coloni gradually became the condition of all the Coloni. The reasons for fixing the barbarian settlers to the soil are obvious enough. The policy of the emperors was to people the country, and to disperse many of the tribes whose union would have been dangerous. If the results of Zumpt's inquiry cannot be admitted to their full extent, it must be allowed, that he has thrown great light on the subject, and probably approached as near as possible to the solution of the difficulty, with the exception of his hypothesis, that the colonatus originated entirely in the settlement of these barbarians. It seems much more probable that the Romans modelled the barbarian settlements upon some institution that already existed, though this existing institution might not be precisely the same as that subsequent institution to which the term Colonatus was peculiarly applied.

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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 12:21
That was too much reading and too many unfamilar words.  A picture, kind of like a family tree picture would be helpful. 
 
I have difficulty with distinguishing these people as not slaves.  I suppose the color gray is not black, but neither is it white.  Hum, the picture of this social order should color the people differently from a lighter color to a darker color, to indicate the degree of freedom or lack of it, they had. 
 
It might be helpful to consider money.  What was it made of and where did it come from?  Romans had coins, but who in the north had coins before the Romans came?  When Rome fell, what happened to the money supply?   Money is essential to having an army, right?  And does the metal for weapons and armor come from?  I would like to see a map of the fuedal area with piles of coins, indicating the wealth of each area. 
 
Wealth, and therefore power, would be a combination of land area, number of laborers, coins and soldiers, right?    As I learned in a thread about Japan, constant warfare led to a trained warroir class, and that is brought up again here, but I am not clear on these distinctions.  There is mention of a division by age, the young and elders, but not I am not sure of division of skill. 
 
I think there is the makings of an excellent computer game here.  What do you think?  The Nintendo game Genghis Khan does not include moving laborers, but this fuedual game should include moving laborers.  Purhaps the word laborer, can serve for all levels of slavery?  I think it would greatly help me grasp the concepts here if they were put into a game, like the Genghis Khan game or Civilizations or  Age of Empires.   Kingdoms stealing from each other as they compete for survival.   It is dawning on me, as never before, why humanity did not advance.  Too much was wasted on fighting, and I guess not much else was happening?  This is far from the philosophy of Athens that lead to science, and the development of the arts and commerce, and yet there must be some commerce to get coins. 
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 12:41
Originally posted by opuslola

And just whom determined who worked the fields? Just what was done to "lazy Larry" or "lazy Loretta" who mostly avoided their share of the work? Did most everyone else just leave it to "hungry Harry" or "hungry Harriata?" to take care of the communal farm?

Maybe the industrious persons did not own the property for their own, but they could claim, at least as far as force "might make" well, a greater share of the crops? I.e. or E.g., "I worked harder, and longer than "lazy Larry" and thus I deserve more of the benefits!"

As most of you well know, communal property only seems to work well in either/or highly religious and forced environments! So, communal farms, etc., worked for religious groups of nuns or friars, etc.! But, in those cases one was graded by a "superior!", as well as their fellows! Those that did not work hard enough were either punished or thrown out!

In many cases, being thrown out was basically a death sentence!

Just a few points!
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 13:04
Opuslola,
 
I think you have a negative out look on life.  We do not need religion nor force, because it is human nature to cooperate.  We are born wanting social acceptence and social pressure is very effective in getting us to comform to social expectations.  In fact, I am in awe how powerful this is.  Thoushands of people accepted being subject to another, who benefitted greatly from their willingness to be subjects. 
 
Surely, some barbarian groups were opposed to this, and there had to have been resistance.  Surely religion made this unnatural state of social order acceptable to many.  Like it is our nature to be cooperative and to conform to group norms, and even to be submissive to the alpha leader, but our urge for independence seems quite strong as well.  I don't know?  I am enjoying this discussion very much as I struggle to comprehend a consciousness that is unaware of anything beyond 20 miles of where I live.   What is it that determines my boundaries?  If I live in a forested region, I may not venture too far into the forest.  But if I start walking and nothing prevents me from walking further, than why do I stay on the same land for my whole life?  Am I like an obedient child, or an independent adult?   Is the bible my only knowledge of the world outside of my 20 miles radius?  Is all I want enough food to fill my belly and shelter from the elements, and social accept in my group?
What makes me happy and what gets my back up? 
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 14:30
Missionaries, where did they go?
 
As I walked my dog this morning, I got to thinking about the missions in the west/south of the US.  It appears that by turning land into productive farms and orchids, natives allowed them the use of this land, and even agreed to work the land.  Worked land produces more, so the missionaries would have something to give.  This could lead to trading and eventually a whole community, right? Surely there must be records of monastaries, and the growth of communities around them.

This also goes with what John Locke said about ownership.  He said it is our labor that gives us the right to claim ownership.   The creator gives us equal right to land, the produce of our labor is something we can claim, and what is ours can be shared and we can set conditions of the sharing.

I am just trying to figure out how anyone can claim land, and why others would agree to this.  It trouble me that this concept of ownership, includes owning people, and it only being a technicality that this is not slavery.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 17:55
Originally posted by opuslola


As most of you well know, communal property only seems to work well in either/or highly religious and forced environments! So, communal farms, etc., worked for religious groups of nuns or friars, etc.! But, in those cases one was graded by a "superior!", as well as their fellows! Those that did not work hard enough were either punished or thrown out!

In many cases, being thrown out was basically a death sentence!
 
 
Originally posted by Athena

I think you have a negative out look on life.  We do not need religion nor force, because it is human nature to cooperate.  We are born wanting social acceptence and social pressure is very effective in getting us to comform to social expectations. 
I dont think he is being negative.  Instead, Opuslola is expressing a core principal.  In every society, there are going to be those who produce or contribute less than their fair share to the group.  Social pressure does not work with everyone. 
 
Those who contribute / produce more are going to conclude that they own more of the benefits, even if the property is communaly owned.  Therefore, every society must have some kind of societal "stick" to discourage or prevent people from taking advantage of others.  
 
As Opuslola mentioned, banishment is the most likely "stick" for hunter gathers and small agricultural tribes.  And.... as Opuslola mentioned, banishment can be a de facto death penalty.  That  makes it a very heavy stick, heavier than the sticks used by some advanced societies such as jail, forced labor, slavery etc.


Edited by Cryptic - 06-Oct-2010 at 19:42
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 22:17
No one is going to be banished for being lazy.  I think you guys are showing an autocratic, industrial society prejudice. 


Edited by Athena - 06-Oct-2010 at 22:18
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 23:10
As a matter of fact, in some societies a child might well be abandoned or banished merely by having webbing between its toes, or having six fingers, or a number of other obvious malformations or deformaties!

If I remember correctly, there was even a society discovered within the last 50 or so years, where by infants are forced to survive on their own shortly after being weaned!

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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 23:20
Originally posted by Athena

No one is going to be banished for being lazy.  I think you guys are showing an autocratic, industrial society prejudice. 
I think you may be romanticizing hunter gathers and subsistance agricultural tribes. Extreme punishment of the lazy maybe more common with hunter / gathers and subistance agriculture tribes than with industrial societies.
 
Industrial societies usually produce more food than is consumed. This means that there is room for eror and the lazy probably wont directly impact the groups survival. Food can also be stored, purchased or bartered for in the future. The population is also larger allowing for the lazy to be more anonymous.
 
Then compare that to a hunter gather societies in extreme envorinments such as the inuit. There is no room for error.  The lazy have a noticable impact on the group and can endanger the entire group.
 


Edited by Cryptic - 06-Oct-2010 at 23:29
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  Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2010 at 11:28
opuslola, at least you say things that keep conversation going, and considering the number of people of posting, that is an important contribution.
 
Actually at least one tribe left the child at 3 of age to forge for itself.  This is because these people are dying.  They do not have the technology to better use their environment, and their environment does not naturally produce enough food to sustain the tribe.  I such conditions, the behaviors we assume are human behaviors stop.  Mothers will not feed babies that doen't cry and babies that are starving to death, stop crying.  I don't know if you have ever felt overwhelmed by it is kind of like going to a state of shock.  People who are overwhelmed, just stop functioning as we assume human beings function.   This extreme is not equal to large cities ignoring their needy.  In the large city the needs of everyone can be met, but the huge number of people, causes another breakdown in human behavior.  To avoid being overwhelmed in large cities, we stop seeing eachother as human beings like ourselves. 
 
I guess what I have said could apply to the subject of the thread.  How we treat others does depend to some degree on our abundance of lack of it, and the size of the population.  A kingdom that could support 3000 soldiers, would have to be quite large.  When a group is larger than 500 hundred, we start loosing the ability to have intimate relationships with all the members of the group.  This results is forming subgroups.  We may or may not recognize members in the subgroup to be humans equal to ourselves.  They are perhaps the lazy laborers who need to whipped to make them work our lands. 
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