Difference between Indians and Pakistanis

Earl

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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 14:10

OK. So what exactly in that report contradicts what I say?

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Colonel

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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 20:42

Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

I meant to say Pakistan was part of British India and was conquered by 'East India Company".India is a name donated by British.British never spoke about pakistan when they were in power here they only knew a sindh province and punjab province.But they addressed afganistan seperately.If you want to rewrite history well ...go ahead.

Who spoke about skin colour here.People living in different parts of the world has different ethnic identities and they have genetical differences too.

People of Pakistan as proposed by some here are not genetically far from Indians.

They were all part of the same population some 64 years ago.

No genetic studies had produced a result favouring your claims.

And about Indus valley people, pakistani shield you need to study moore.

You people seem to assume much about things which are not being discussed here

If the belief that Indians are jealous of you gives some satisfaction to you ,then keep it...

the British called it such, but it doesn't mean the lands and peoples are one. The ottomans colonized the Greeks and the Arabs into one state, doesn't mean they are the same.

As for genetics, the Haplogroup R1A1 is most common amongst Northern Pakistanis and Eastern Europeans, indians have no R1A1 except for some families that immigrated through Pakistan

Genetically eastern European populations are closer to Pakistanis than are indians. Would indians like to claim commonality with eastern europeans too?

indians are far too genetically diverse. your own scientists call your country the most geneticly diverse country on Earth

Distribution of haplogorup R1A:
http://www.humanjourney.us/images/R1a-map.jpg

high frequency of R1a1 found in several South Indian tribes including the Chenchu and the Badagas, together with a higher R1a1-associated STR diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and Central Asia, has been taken as evidence for an origin of R1a1 (M17) in Southern or Western Asia (Kivisild 2003b).
Stephen Oppenheimer, who reports upon the results of the Human Genome Diversity Project in his book "The Real Eve: Modern Man's Journey out of Africa", comments that, "For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line inPakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a 'male Aryan Invasion of India'" (p. 152). Oppenheimer further believes that it is highly suggestive that India is the origin of the Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups which he calls the "Eurasian Eves". According to Oppenheimer it is highly probable that nearly all human maternal lineages in Europe (and similarly in East Asia) descended from only four mtDNA lines that originated in South Asia 50,000-10,000 years ago.

R1A1 is very common iin Indian castes and tribes of even south India.

And I thought you were proposing a possibility of Aryan invasion for such a distribution.I was contradicting with that.

AI meant to say studuies indicate a very early seperation of European & south asian population.

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Earl

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Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 02:51

Like I said before, with the exceptions of migration of populations through Pakistan, R1A reached parts of India and yes I read before many Dravidian ethnicities have it.

There's nothing new here.

"AI meant to say studuies indicate a very early seperation of European & south asian population."

Not all South Asians are linked with Europeans. It's mainly the people who carry R haplogroup markers who share a common ancestry with European populations as a result of "backward" migration of Europeans known as your Aryan invasion.

There might have been migrations earlier than the Aryan invasion as haplogroup R2 which is mostly northwest indian. R2 is separate from R1, so the migrations might have occurred in separate waves.

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Colonel

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Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 21:35

"There might have been migrations "

There was a migration from Africa which happened some 60000 years ago which resulted in peopling of Asia and Europe.And there is no proof for Aryan invasion.

And the similarity of Pakistanis & North West Indians to Geeks is due to the Alexanders expeditions through which he conquered upto indus.Later this whole province was ruled for a long period by Seleucas Nicator.And during Chandra Gupta's time they (seleucus & Chandra gupta,sandrocottus in greek) had marriage relations with each other.

This is the historical attestation for the european connection.this occured in 4th-3rd century BC

And later the white huns or scythians & other Nomadic groups invaded the Northwest of the Subcontinent and destroyed Taxila this also is an attested historical event which supports european connections.

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Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 23:57

For nearly a millenium , from 500BC till 470 AD till the destruction of Taxila and even afterwards. there was constant interactions & battles in the North west part of the Indian sub continent.

Bactrians Greeks,Indo-greeks,Scythians,Nomads from north & central Asia all were invading and settling in the Area.These events are well attested by History and archaeologically.

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Earl

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Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 15:39

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

"There might have been migrations "

There was a migration from Africa which happened some 60000 years ago which resulted in peopling of Asia and Europe.And there is no proof for Aryan invasion.

This is the historical attestation for the european connection.this occured in 4th-3rd century BC

oh my God please don't tell me your confusing the Aryan migration with Alexander's invasion which happened more than a thousand years later.

I really don't think you know what your talking about, so I think it is best this pointless discussion come to an end and you go ahead and do some more research

opuslola

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Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 16:34

But, just what is a thousand years between cousins and friends?

For me, it is merely a number, and not a fact!

http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/

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Colonel

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Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 20:23

Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

"There might have been migrations "

There was a migration from Africa which happened some 60000 years ago which resulted in peopling of Asia and Europe.And there is no proof for Aryan invasion.

This is the historical attestation for the european connection.this occured in 4th-3rd century BC

I am not confusing anything here.

Aryan invasion is somethig which had never happened.It is a theory propogated by many during colonial period.Firstly they proposed that Aryans came from central Asia,Then they changed the origin to Germany.(And world faced the brunt of the germany theory in thename of second world war and execution of Jews)Then they proposed greece as Urheimat then Anatolia and finally they placed the origins at Russian Steppes.The latest version of Aryan Invasion theory is called "Kurgan Hypothesis" which Aryans originated in Russian steppes and then by 2500Bc they started migration first a group(hellenes) entered greece then another group(Celts) rest of Europe then yet another group(Aryans) to South East asian subcontinent(India ,Pak & Afgan & Iran).But this entry is least attested.Archaeologically,genetically,Anthropologically and Archaeo-astronomically.

After ythe genetical studies carried out on fossils from the 600+ archaeological sites on the banks of Indus & Gaggar- hakra banks.It was found that no such invasion took place.

Then the invasion theorists(mainly Linguists) changed the theory into AMT Aryan Migration theory but when the geneticists opposed this theory stating the rusults of their study(ie results of the studies failed to attest any invasion or large scale migration from a period of 5000BC to 600BC).

Then the AIT/AMT proponents changed it into a trickle -in infilteration without affecting the Genetics or material culture but still they argue that Aryans(race) came in

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Earl

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Posted: 17-Jul-2010 at 16:19

you still haven't produced any evidence for it. Linguistic, genetic evidence all provide evidence for this migration.

If the white IE could have moved as far east as China and mongolia, what makes people think it didn't happen in South Asia.

Haplogroups themselves show Northern Pakistani populations to be genetically closer to eastern European populations than to other populations in Asia.

This thread isn't any useful either

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Colonel

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Posted: 18-Jul-2010 at 23:05

Originally posted by PakistaniShield

you still haven't produced any evidence for it. Linguistic, genetic evidence all provide evidence for this migration.

If the white IE could have moved as far east as China and mongolia, what makes people think it didn't happen in South Asia.

Haplogroups themselves show Northern Pakistani populations to be genetically closer to eastern European populations than to other populations in Asia.

This thread isn't any useful either

Latest Archaeological Excavations in the banks of the Rigvedic Saraswati River(Gaggar Hakkra River) of west Rajastan which dried out during 1900 BC due to tectonic disturbances, has exposed Fire Altars made by cooked bricks dating back to 2700BC(Archaeological site of Kalibangan(a pre-harappan site) of West Rajasthan ,Surkotada & Lothal of Sabarmati Delta Gujarat).Construction of Sacrificial fire Altar and Fire worship is purely a Rigvedic Practice.These proofs are positively indicating the presence of Rigvedic Aryans in the banks of Saraswati and Sabarmati Delta during 3000BC.Where as many scholars argue that the fire worship was introduced in India/Indus Valley only after the Aryan Hordes came to the Indus valley duriing 1500BC.

Archaeological Excavations at Surkotada Gujarat & Lothal has Exposed Horse bones and Teeth(of Equus Caballus Lynn) and these dated back to 2800-2900BC.This indicates that the inhabitants of both Lothal & Surkotada were familiar with modern horses which according to many scholars were brought to India by invading hordes of Aryans in 1500BC.Even Horse specialist Sandor Bokonyi had attested the remains as that of modern horse.

Archaeological proofs doesnot support any large scale migration towards India/Indus-Saraswati valley from7000BC to 600AD.Also it provides proof for the presence of Aryan Fire worship and also usage of Horses in Indus-Saraswati.Surkotada and Lothal are considered as part of Indus valley & Kalibangan is a Pre-Harappan site on the banks of the Saraswati.

Archaeological proofs doesnot support any large scale migration towards India/Indus-Saraswati valley from3000BC to 100AD.This also is against the Indo-Aryan migration hypothesis.This doesnt support the claim that Indo Aryan groups from Mitanni & other areas came and settled in India during 1500BC.

Recent excavations have unearthed several Harappan/Saraswati and similar archaeological sites from Baluchistan till Krishna -Godavari basins of South India.There are several pre-historic sites similar to harappan & Saraswati in Haryana,Rajastan,Gujarat,Maharashtra ,Karnataka & Andhra Pradesh States of India.

And at the peak of the civilization they might have had atleast15-20 million people on the banks of all these rivers.

It is really illogical to believe that some invading/migrating hordes of newcomers that also numbering only thousands came and taught Sanskrit to the whole population(20 million) and also taught them to follow fire rituals and eventually made them write Rigveda and other three vedas,Brahmanams,samhita,Aranyakas,Niruktas,Upanishads,Puranas,Gruhyasutras,Srouta sutras & pratisakhyas of the vedas(A total of more than 17500+ Sanskrit textbooks,and apart from this the Brighu Samhita,Parashara Hora Sutra and thousands of other text books).

Apart from this it is well known to Historians that the vedic sanskrit came to an end by 600Bc and gave way to classical sanskrit.And during 400BC Panini gave a proper grammatical form for the Classical sanskrit.So these vedic & Upanishadic textbooks were composed much before 600BC.Atharva Veda is the only Veda that speaks about iron and it is dated by historians back to 1200BC the early iron age.Rig is still older depicting bronze age ie before 2300BC,Not sure when it was written down first.

The names of all the rivers(hydronomy) & places in Indus valley is Indo-European or better to say Sanskrit ie Sindhu,Sutudri,Saraswati,sarsuti etc.In all other places where large scale migration or invasion took place the culture might have changed but not all the river & place names.In all the cases the old river names in the native languages are retained.

eg:- Names of almost all rivers & places in USA are still old red indian names ontario,michigun,Alaska etc.

Same is the case of places & rivers in Europe also.

If indus valley has archaeological proof showing a civilization from 7000BC.if some Indo-Europeans from outside migrated to Indus invaded the natives and settled there afterwards how did they happen to change all the river names, without leaving even a single one..?

How did the illiterate barbaric hordes of horse riding Aryans who were in thousand happen to teach sanskrit to more than 20million natives of the existing civilization stretching from Baluchistan till karnataka in south India.And immediately after they started literary works..? or wrote 17500+ books in sanskrit..?

By saying genetic study I meant studies conduvted on the cranium sizes of the fossils from Indus-Saraswati sites.They show uniformity throughout for several ,milleniums say from 7000BC to 600BC.That is indicating homogenity of Civilization.

Different races of ethnic groups have different cranium structure and sizes so any invasion or large scale migration and offsprings generated after such events will have different cranium sizes and structure which is not found anywhere in Indus-saraswati valley.

Astronomical referances in 'Thaithiriya Brahmana' is indicating equinoxes that took place near about 8000BC.And many astronomical referances in Rigveda speaks about equinoxes and stellar positions of about 4300BC.

These stellar positions was observed by the composers with naked eye.

Because back calculation and refering such incidents is impossible.The astronomical constants used by astronomers and mathematicians of ancient India like Apasthanba(900BC) ,Pingala(700BC) were differing from our present day values at their 4th &5th decimal places.so if back calculated this decimal difference will leave a difference of 5 to 15 degree difference in the positions of various planets and stellar constallations.Apart from that the positions of moon is impossible to back calculateeven todayso would have been the same earlire too.A difference of 5 to 15 degreein position calculation will leave an error 600-1200years in the dates being back calculated.But the astronomical referances of Rigveda and other books are very accurate & this proves that it was observed by the composers of these works with their naked eyes.these vedas,Brahmanams,Upanishads,samhitas,Sroutasutras,Gruhyasutras etc were preserved through oral tradition for milleniums and written down in present form much later.

The use of planetaurium soft ware had helpedin finding out the correctdates of the astronomical referances in most of these books.Prof.Narahari Achar an astrophysist and faculty of Memphis University had found out the correct dates of mahabharatha war and many other such events using the Planetaurium soft ware.

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Colonel

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Posted: 18-Jul-2010 at 23:30

You should first try to know what is the present/latest hypothesis about Indo-aryan migration or the Kurgan Hypothesis.And also before asserting on the"linguistic and genetic", also try to understand why the terms migration & trckle-in infilteration are used.Because no proof for invasion(battles or destruction) was found in any of the Indus or saraswati sites both genetical & archaeological.

First thing to say the Indus valley civilization was not a dravidian civilization as many believes they were similar to mesopotamians & iranians.

it is the invasionist school of thought who once upon a time claimed them to be dravidian.Now they(AIT proponents) say that their language only was dravidian, which too had proved false by their own theory.

Please go through Kurgan Hypothesis & also Prof.Michael Witzel's paper's supporting the same.He is addressing to Cavalli Sforza's research results and has proposed the trickle-in infilteration due to lack of genetic proof for the Aryan Invasion or migration.

Prof.Michael Witzel & Erdosy are the strongest proponents of Aryan Invasion ,then migration and then trickle-in infilteration theory presently.

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http://sites.google.com/site/r2dnainfo/R2-Home/Aryans/reasons-why-the-aryan-invasion-theory

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Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 03:20

now you seem to be selecting which scholars to quote. The articles you just pasted only give more evidence to the connection between IE speaking peoples from Europe to Asia.

I am open to dispute that the migration that took place was non-violent and perhaps the IVC people were Dravidian (though not proven), but this whole thing of Europeans migrating out of India or the linguistic and genetic linkage between the 2 populations being coincidence is getting boring.

Anyways i don't see anything more to discuss it's just going back and fourth.

fire worship, domesticated animals and animals worship are all traits of IE migration in Asia. I was just yesterday reading of genetic and linguistic affinities between Slavic and Indo-Aryan languages.

most forum members would find it interesting http://www.scribd.com/doc/14180564/INDOARYAN-AND-SLAVIC-LINGUISTIC-AFFINITIES

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Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 03:26

Before going any furthar in this subject ,we need to clarify our understanding about the subject.

Who were the occupants of Mehrgarh ,Moenjodaro,Harappa,Rakhigarhi ,Dholavira , Lothal and other sites as per your understanding..? what were their timeline..?

What is the estimated size of the total area occupied by the civilization and what is the estimated population..?

Who are dravidians..? what do they look like..?

Did Aryan invasion of Indus valley take place ..? if yes what is the time line as per your understanding..? what was the estimated strength of the invading group..? Where did they come from..?

Who are aryans..? what do theylook like..?

What change did they bring about to the existing civilization..?

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Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 04:16

The recent genetical studies which has ruled out the possibility of an Aryan invasion

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Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 04:24

Originally posted by PakistaniShield

now you seem to be selecting which scholars to quote. The articles you just pasted only give more evidence to the connection between IE speaking peoples from Europe to Asia.

I am open to dispute that the migration that took place was non-violent and perhaps the IVC people were Dravidian (though not proven), but this whole thing of Europeans migrating out of India or the linguistic and genetic linkage between the 2 populations being coincidence is getting boring.

Anyways i don't see anything more to discuss it's just going back and fourth.

fire worship, domesticated animals and animals worship are all traits of IE migration in Asia. I was just yesterday reading of genetic and linguistic affinities between Slavic and Indo-Aryan languages.

most forum members would find it interesting http://www.scribd.com/doc/14180564/INDOARYAN-AND-SLAVIC-LINGUISTIC-AFFINITIES

When do you propose this migration to have taken place..?Where did they come from..?

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Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 04:31

It is wellknown and evident that indo-European speaking peoples have connection there is nothing new in it..?

I am asking about the possibility of a migration and please clarify your concept about the theory

"perhaps Dravidian" is of no use..Say whether you believe/propose them to be dravidians..

And about fire worship when do you think ot has started in Indus Valley..? or say when did the invasion/non-violent migration take place..?

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Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 15:22

When do you propose this migration to have taken place..?Where did they come from..?

Not I propose. The consensus is the migration occurred around 1500BC- 1700BC.

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Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 20:24

Originally posted by PakistaniShield

When do you propose this migration to have taken place..?Where did they come from..?

Not I propose. The consensus is the migration occurred around 1500BC- 1700BC.

Thank You, Apart from this I would like to know some more things.Did they introduce fire rituals to India..?

Did they introduce animal Husbandry(like sheep,buffaloes, cattle etc) & agriculture to India..?

Did they introduce horses..?

I hope the link about the recent genetical studies which rule out an invasion during the above mentioned period was provided earlier please go through.

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