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The most oppressed nation in the Middle East

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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The most oppressed nation in the Middle East
    Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 19:58

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100531/ap_on_an/ml_israel_fallout_analysis

By KARIN LAUB and MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writers Karin Laub And Matthew Lee, Associated Press Writers – Mon May 31, 4:17 pm ET

 
JERUSALEM – Israel's bloody, bungled takeover of a Gaza-bound Turkish aid vessel is complicating U.S.-led Mideast peace efforts, deepening Israel's international isolation and threatening to destroy the Jewish state's ties with key regional ally Turkey.
 
And while Israel had hoped to defend its tight blockade of Hamas-ruled Gaza with Monday's high-seas raid, it instead appeared to be hastening the embargo's demise, judging by initial international condemnation.
 
The pre-dawn commando operation, which killed nine activists, was also sure to strengthen Gaza's Islamic militant Hamas rulers at the expense of U.S. allies in the region, key among them Hamas' main rival, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, as well as Egypt and Jordan.
 
"The attack on a humanitarian mission ... will only further alienate the international community and isolate Israel while granting added legitimacy to Hamas' claim to represent the plight of the Palestinian people," said Scott Atran, an analyst at the University of Michigan.
 
The Mediterranean bloodshed dealt another blow to the Obama administration's efforts to get peace talks back on track. It raised new questions about one of the pillars of U.S. policy — that Hamas can be left unattended as Washington tries to broker a peace deal between Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
 
The raid tested U.S.-Israeli ties that have not yet fully recovered from their most serious dispute in decades, triggered by Israeli construction plans in disputed east Jerusalem.
 
In the most immediate fallout, the interception of the six-boat flotilla carrying 10,000 tons of supplies for Gaza trained the global spotlight on the blockade of the territory. Israel and Egypt sealed Gaza's borders after Hamas overran the territory in 2007, wresting control from Abbas-loyal forces.
 
The blockade, under which Israel allows in only essential humanitarian supplies, was intended to squeeze the militants. Instead, it has failed to dislodge Hamas, driven ordinary Gazans deeper into poverty and emerged as a constant source of friction and instability. In trying to shake off the blockade, Hamas intensified rocket fire on Israeli border towns, provoking Israel's three-week military offensive against Gaza 16 months ago.
 
After the Gaza war, the international community remained reluctant to push hard for an end to the blockade, for fear it could prolong the rule of Hamas, branded a terrorist organization by the West.

But after Monday's deadly clash, Israel may find itself under growing pressure to at least ease the blockade significantly.

European diplomats on Monday demanded a swift end to the border closure, while U.S. officials said statements would call for greater assistance to the people of Gaza. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the situation.

The fate of U.S.-led indirect talks between Israel and the Palestinians was uncertain.

Netanyahu canceled a scheduled Tuesday meeting with President Barack Obama in Washington, and the status of a planned visit to Washington by Abbas next week was not immediately clear.

The Palestinian leader on Monday denounced Israel's actions as a "sinful massacre" and met with aides to decide on his next move.

Israel dismissed the condemnation, saying its forces came under attack when they tried to board one of the Turkish-flagged aid vessels (activists attacking hard-core commandos? Hmmm.Approve) However, its point of view seemed to fall on deaf ears.

"Militarily, we can feel quite safe, but not regarding our political international standing," said Alon Liel, a former Israeli diplomat posted in Turkey.

Israel also appears close to destroying its relationship with key strategic ally Turkey.

Turkey decided to scrap three military drills involving Israel and withdrawal of its ambassador.

Turkey, NATO's sole Muslim member, established close military relations with Israel in 1996 under U.S. pressure. Today, the Islamic-rooted government's sensitivities about the plight of Muslims anywhere and aspirations to have a say in the Middle East and Europe are reshaping Turkish foreign policy.

___

Lee reported from Washington. Associated Press writers Mohammed Daraghmeh in Ramallah, West Bank, and Selcan Hacaoglu in Ankara, Turkey, contributed to this report.

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  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 00:02
<<If you're going to attack the military while doing their job dont be surprised when you get shot in the face>>
 
Wooow! take that as link from bbc site, it function better than your dead links...
 
Witnesses cast doubt on Israel's convoy raid account
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10208027.stm
Eyewitness accounts from ships raided by Israeli commandos have cast doubt on Israel's version of events that led to the deaths of at least nine people.
 
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 00:27

You are a trained soldier, armed to the teeth. You rough someone up, verbally, psychologically and physically. Provoke him to the very edge of his patience. Eventually, he lashes out. Then you shoot him at your leisure and plead self-defence. His friends jump to his aid, you do the same.

It's easy.
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 00:47

courtesy of Nurica: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10208027.stm

Eyewitness accounts from ships raided by Israeli commandos have cast doubt on Israel's version of events that led to the deaths of at least nine people. German activist Norman Paech said he had only seen wooden sticks being brandished as troops abseiled on to the deck of the ship. "There were no knives, no axes and no pistols."

Israel says its soldiers were attacked with "knives, clubs and other weapons" and "opened fire in self-defence" (the usual Israeli BS). The raid led to widespread condemnation and the UN has called for an inquiry. US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on Tuesday that Washington would support an Israeli investigation of the raid, but said it must be "prompt, impartial, credible and transparent", as called for by the UN.

The six ships, carrying aid and campaigners, had sailed from Cyprus in a bid to break Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip. Israel seized more than 670 people with the ships and deported 50 on Tuesday. The Israeli cabinet later announced that all those still being held would be deported within 48 hours.

Speaking as he arrived back in Berlin wrapped in a blue blanket, Mr Paech, a member of a German opposition party, said Israel's operation "was not an act of self-defence". "Personally I saw two-and-a-half wooden batons that were used... There was really nothing else. We never saw any knives. This was an attack in international waters on a peaceful mission ... This was a clear act of piracy." Mr. Paech had been a passenger on the Turkish passenger ship Mavi Marmara where most, if not all, of the deaths occurred.

Fellow German activist Inge Hoeger said they had been on the ships 'for peaceful purposes'. "We wanted to transport aid to Gaza," she said. "No-one had a weapon." She added: "We were aware that this would not be a simple cruise across the sea to deliver the goods to Gaza. But we did not count on this kind of brutality."

Activist Bayram Kalyon, arriving back in Istanbul, had also been a passenger on the Mavi Marmara. "The captain... told us 'They are firing randomly, they are breaking the windows and entering inside. So you should get out of here as soon as possible'. That was our last conversation with him."

Meanwhile, in Nazareth, Israeli Arab MP Haneen Zuabi - who was on the flotilla - told a press conference that Israeli forces began firing while still in the helicopters hovering over the ships. "We are calling for an international committee to investigate this tragedy," she said.

Diplomatic sources in Ankara have said at least four of those killed were Turkish. Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the assault was a "bloody massacre" and must be punished. He said Israel should not test Turkey's patience.

Further criticism of Israel came from UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon on Tuesday. In an interview with the AFP news agency, he said Israel's blockade of Gaza was responsible for the deadly raid. "Had Israelis heeded to my call and to the call of the international community by lifting the blockade of Gaza, this tragic incident would not have happened," he said.

Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen called on Israel to release people and boats it had seized. He spoke after an emergency meeting of Nato ambassadors in Brussels called by Turkey. Gaza violence. The UN Security Council issued its statement after deliberating through Monday night. It said an investigation should be "prompt, impartial, credible and transparent". It also condemned the "acts" which led to the deaths.



Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 02-Jun-2010 at 00:54
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 00:52

The Problem you have is that the Turks don't like the Arabs--It wasn't that long ago that the word for Arab and Dog and Arab and traitor were interchangeable in Turkish

 

The other problem you have is when it all boils down to it the Military still runs turkey, they are secular and wouldn't pull a hair for their Moslem brothers unless it benefits Turkey.

 

By  the way SoD let me give you some wisdom, as a professor once told me --Think--Nobody cares what you think only what you know, where you learned it and what are the citations (are they from credible sources)--So from now on unless you can cite your sources your arguments are baseless. Well they are silly anyway just like you--

 

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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 00:58
What wisdom? Apart from your Washington-manufactured crap, you don't have any. Absolute zilch.Approve
 
You're out of touch again. As usual. Haven't you heard, Mr. Reccip Tayyip Erdogan and his friend Abdullah Gul has already taken the military and other vital state apparatus - all formerly controlled by secular Janissary's descendants - under their authority.
 
The army, navy and air force is now under complete civilian control. They all  have to answer and report to Erdogan as Head of Government. While Gul as Head of State is Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces. No more army-led coup d'etat for Turkey.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 02-Jun-2010 at 01:05
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 01:02
This why the Turks have are drifting over the capitulation of Syria in the late 90's and other changes in the ME it is all RealPolitik and nothing else
 
Since the October 1998 Turkish threat to
use force against Syria,12 Damascus has complied with Turkish demands to stop
support for the Kurdish insurgency and to cease demands for the Alexandretta
province. Similarly, Cyprus was “convinced” not to station S-300 surface-to-air
missile systems on its soil, which could have hampered the freedom of action of
the Turkish air force. Furthermore, Saddam Hussein’s Iraq was eliminated as a
threat by the 2003 American conquest, leading to a drastically less threatening
regional environment. In such a situation, Turkey’s reliance on Israel and the
West decreases.
 
“Turkey Cancels Air Force Drill Because of Israeli Participation,” Hürriyet Daily News, 11 October 2009.
 “Tension Continues between Turkey and Syria,” Arabic News, 31 October 1998.
 Amanda Akçakoca, “Turkey: An Energy Bridge for Europe,” Today’s Zaman, 11 April 2007.
 
Turkey is drifting East as it were in order to Show the EU they better play ball or else
 
 Avi Mizrachi, “Navy to partake in Turkish exercise,” Jerusalem Post, 12 August 2009.
European Parliament, “EU-Turkey,” 20 October 2009, http://www.europarl.europa.eu/eplive/expert/
shotlistpage/20091019SHL62757/default_en.htm.
 “Fears Grow of Sarkozy Initiative to Downgrade Turkey’s EU Bid,” Financial Times, 15 October 2009; Şaban Kardaş,
“Merkel and Sarkozy Call for Privileged Partnership Angers Turkey,” The Jamestown Foundation, 13 May 2009,
Eurasia Daily Monitor, Volume 6, Issue 92.
 Central and Eastern European Watch, “Turkey’s EU Membership and the Public Opinion,” http://www.despiteborders.
com/clanky/data/upimages/petkova_turkey_eu_public_opionion.pdf; EurActiv, “EU-Turkey Relations,” http://www.euractiv.
com/en/enlargement/eu-turkey-relations/article-129678.


Edited by Maximus Germanicus - 02-Jun-2010 at 01:03
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 01:07
However, If Turkey sends warships and the IDF attacks them, then what--That is an attack on NATO then NATO would be compelled to act--I hope Israel isn't that dumb
 
While I support Israel in general they make some bonehead PR moves
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 01:27
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

What wisdom? Apart from your Washington-manufactured crap, you don't have any. Absolute zilch.Approve
 
You're out of touch again. As usual. Haven't you heard, Mr. Reccip Tayyip Erdogan and his friend Abdullah Gul has already taken the military and other vital state apparatus - all formerly controlled by secular Janissary's descendants - under their authority.
 
The army, navy and air force is now under complete civilian control. They all  have to answer and report to Erdogan as Head of Government. While Gul as Head of State is Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces. No more army-led coup d'etat for Turkey.
 
Thats where you are wrong again. Yeah that upset the armed forces but trust me on a few things
 
1. NATO will not let Turkey drift east over Israel
 
2. Turkey will be part of NATO or not be in the EU
 
3. Turk military will reatke the nation before they lose the funding from the west
 

A State outside the State

The Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) is a powerful military machine, whose numbers are only surpassed within NATO by the United States. Armament renovation has been a national priority for decades, supported by all governments without reservations�until now. Furthermore, all new acquisitions and their destinations have been managed by military leaders without any parliamentary control. Thus, the military budget, supposedly 5% of Gross Domestic Product (which places Turkey as the nation within NATO using the greatest percentage of GDP for military), is elaborated by the military staff and its approbation by the legislative power is only formally limited without any debate.

 
Are you talking about the sledgehammer plot-- Yeah that hurt the military but it is still the real power in Turkey
 
Since they use all NATO equipment and are funded by NATO I really don't see turkey drifting away from the west
 
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 01:29
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

What wisdom? Apart from your Washington-manufactured crap, you don't have any. Absolute zilch.Approve
 
You're out of touch again. As usual. Haven't you heard, Mr. Reccip Tayyip Erdogan and his friend Abdullah Gul has already taken the military and other vital state apparatus - all formerly controlled by secular Janissary's descendants - under their authority.
 
The army, navy and air force is now under complete civilian control. They all  have to answer and report to Erdogan as Head of Government. While Gul as Head of State is Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces. No more army-led coup d'etat for Turkey.
 
The Army has the money, power and guns, doesn't matter who is nominally in charge
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  Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 02:20
Maybe the jews are hated by arabs ,turks and iranians which surround them, but for sure the most opressed people are the kurds. messed on their population size (35-45 mio) and their situation you can´t compare other nations with them. Maybe the assyrians have also no land but in fact they are less than 2 Million Assyrians. and they are distributed to many countrys without connection. Some live in Lebanon,Syria some in Iran some in Armenia some in Azerbaijan some in Turkey some in Northafrica. But the problem by kurds is they are one divided nation between 4 Borders. It´s like some strenger came to your home and just Draw a border between you, the parents and your sister.


Edited by Xorto - 02-Jun-2010 at 02:38
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 03:20

MG. Apparently, you still don't get it, despite your army background. If the Executive can order the arrest of top military generals on suspicion of plotting an overthrow, with the approval of the Chief of Armed Forces (not that the fellow had much of a choice anymore), then who is really in power?

You are still living and dreaming in the past. But things are changing in Turkey even as you are typing away. Even the Turkish military itself is now powerless to stop it. They can resist the PM and the Prez, but they can't resist the entire Turkish nation, can they? And the nation are now ... solidly ... with ... Erdogan and Gul.
 
The only way Turkey is moving forward is toward becoming a properly Muslim country, rather than the nominal one it has been all this while. Not an extremely fanatical one, but still a properly Muslim one. The trend is unstoppable and irreversible.
 
NATO will have to accommodate this latest developments if NATO still values Turkey as a Member State. While Turkey will only remain in NATO for as long as its membership is appreciated and is beneficial to Turkey. Otherwise, it could become another 'France', exitting NATO while remaining a NATO close ally.
 
With some strategic adjustments, Turkey does not need to be a part of the EU to continue trading with EU and benefiting from it. A well-managed, well-organised, efficient economy can remain productively engaged with any other economy without having to be part of any formal economic alliance.
 
Correction to your bonehead statement:
If Turkey attacks Israel and Israel fights back, that is not an Israeli attack on NATO. But if Israel attacks Turkish territory, then that is an attack on a NATO Member State, and therefore is an attack on NATO. BTW, however, Turkey alone is powerful enough to smash Israel to bits, without NATO assistance.
 
The Army has the money, power and guns? Wow! If the King is powerful enough to subdue the General, will the Army obey the King or the General?


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 02-Jun-2010 at 03:45
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 03:46
I agree thatTurkey could smash the IDF with out NATO help or any other army in the middle east. I would read up on the new CoS he is not exactly a radical Muslim--
 
You have to remember the Turks really don't like the Arabs or the Persians-- most of the anger in Turkey is over the EU, France is blocking it. They don't feel respected. Also Turkey has had a long History of working with the Jews. There was and is a large Jewish Community in Istanbul. This current crisis will pass. It is all political. Turkey wants the new joint strike fighter and the new leopards, they will get them. This is what all this is about.
 
Also the governments support is mainly in the provinces not in the cities, almost all off the Officer corp is wetern educated. Turkey is an strange bird to say the least.
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 03:56
'Western educated' does not necessarily have to mean 'poodle of the west'.Approve The education is intended to liberate your mind, not to bind it in chains.
 
Hey, I'm western educated too, remember?
 
No, you severely underrate the close underlying relationship between Turkey and Iran, and Turkey and the Arab states. Forget the occassional petty little spats between neighbours. More importantly, their histories are intimately intertwined, all the way to even ancient, very ancient pre-Islamic times.
 
BTW, it has also often happened that new developments first develop in the provinces, then spread gradually but relentlessly to the cities.
 
No, I don't believe this is just about EU membership, JSF or Leopards. It's much, much deeper than that. It's a vast, new, fundamental transformation in the entire Turkish political landscape. Turkey has, eventually, made the decision to embark on the long awaited, very very important journey to rediscover and reinvent itself.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 02-Jun-2010 at 04:12
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  Quote Night Crawler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 04:08
Armenians-- No question So much for your Turks they shouldn't be in NATO anyway
 
 
Don't you fool realize that its not the Taleban it is Pakistan. They are supporting the war--The longer the war goes that get more US money and and an unstable Afgahnistan allows them to remain the power-
 
Bring back ole Mushi he would out an end to this we need more puppets
 
 


Edited by Night Crawler - 02-Jun-2010 at 04:17
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 12:36
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

I agree thatTurkey could smash the IDF with out NATO help or any other army in the middle east. I would read up on the new CoS he is not exactly a radical Muslim--
 
You have to remember the Turks really don't like the Arabs or the Persians-- most of the anger in Turkey is over the EU, France is blocking it. They don't feel respected. Also Turkey has had a long History of working with the Jews. There was and is a large Jewish Community in Istanbul. This current crisis will pass. It is all political. Turkey wants the new joint strike fighter and the new leopards, they will get them. This is what all this is about.
 
Also the governments support is mainly in the provinces not in the cities, almost all off the Officer corp is wetern educated. Turkey is an strange bird to say the least.
 
I`m really amazed by this conclusion. Maxi, you forget that Israel is a nuclear power with third arsenal in the world by size. They have a ballistic rockets. Ever in 70`s Israel have enough military power to smash all Middle East and North African country. To occupy their territory. Israeli have a weapons their own production. You personally talk about excellent battle tank "Merkava" as one of the most steady machine in the world. Israeli navy have their own made missle boats.  Produce and sell weapons all over the world (Uzi, Galil, TAR-21, Negev, Desert Eagle). Their own Aerospace industry, advanced technology... 
 
What is Turkey? Their army was create after 1945 by USA and NATO to be a stronghold during Cold war against USSR expansion towards Mediterranean sea and Middle East. The army is western oriented, while masses of the population are Islamists and dreams about long dead Ottoman empire. USA from decades have been donate Turkish army by millions dollars. Army made several coup to take-over embarrass for Washington Islamist and Nationalist governments. After end of the Cold war role of the army in Turkish society begin to fall. For 8 years Turkey is ruled by Islamist and anti-western government. The foreign politics is official focused over recovery of Ottoman empire, which mean aggressive pressure (include military) in South-East Europe (The Balkans) and increase of Turkish influence in Middle East. They used a image of Muslim advocate, protector and leader of Islamic world. Turkey is not USA and NATO ally anymore and people in Washington begin to realize it. EU stoped process of Turkish inclusion, because new Turkish official imperialistic ambition contrary to European interests. Turkey refuse to step in 2003 Iraq war and even refuse to give it`s territory in help of "ally" US army. Turkey recently make a deal with Iranian dictator Ahmadinejad (hateful to Iranian people) to help his nuclear programme in face of all world soceity (EU, USA, and even Russia). From begining of this year Turkish military provocations towards Greece (also NATO member) are something usual and make a deep anxiety in the region. Not only flights by heavily armed Turkish fighters at low altitude over Greek islands in Aegean sea, but also deep break of Greek territorial waters by naval vessels- http://sofiaecho.com/2010/03/16/873927_turkish-naval-corvette-enters-greek-waters-and-sails-almost-to-athens
 
What is Turkish army? Aircrafts- American F-16, tanks- German "Leopard", ammunition and logistic -dependent on NATO. Army personal- big by size, well trained and motivated. Own military products or inventions-none. Nukes-none.
 
It`s  matter of time of similar collision like last one. Izrael ever once respond to the Turkish challenge (diplomatic). Izrael have no fear to attack Turkish ship into international waters. I think they accept the challenge. I personally expect Turkey soon to be excluded from NATO.
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 23:50

Iraq 2003 was an invasion. A naked, unprovoked, unauthorised, absolutely illegitimate invasion by America. Iraq and Iraqis had nothing to do with WTC 9/11. It was totally unjustified.

Turkey was right to have made a principled stand not to allow itself to get dragged into an atrocius debacle. A tough call, but a wise one. There was no attack by any country on a NATO Member State anyway. If it was a terrorist attack, then it was a terrorist attack. Just a group of independent, freely acting individuals. Why punish Iraq for it? Saddam Hussain's dictatorship yadda yadda yadda notwithstanding.
 
Israel might have no fear of Turkey. But then, neither does Turkey hold any fear of Israel, their 800 nukes notwitstanding.
 
Israel's victories in ME in the past have been relatively quick decisive victories against qualitatively much inferior opposition. It hasn't been tested in a long drawn out war against a worthy opponent. It even struggled to cope with Hezbollah in 2006.
 
Turkey is not Syria, nor Egypt. If Israel really has the balls, let's see it show them then. 


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 03-Jun-2010 at 00:32
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 03:31
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

I agree thatTurkey could smash the IDF with out NATO help or any other army in the middle east. I would read up on the new CoS he is not exactly a radical Muslim--
 
You have to remember the Turks really don't like the Arabs or the Persians-- most of the anger in Turkey is over the EU, France is blocking it. They don't feel respected. Also Turkey has had a long History of working with the Jews. There was and is a large Jewish Community in Istanbul. This current crisis will pass. It is all political. Turkey wants the new joint strike fighter and the new leopards, they will get them. This is what all this is about.
 
Also the governments support is mainly in the provinces not in the cities, almost all off the Officer corp is wetern educated. Turkey is an strange bird to say the least.
 
I`m really amazed by this conclusion. Maxi, you forget that Israel is a nuclear power with third arsenal in the world by size. They have a ballistic rockets. Ever in 70`s Israel have enough military power to smash all Middle East and North African country. To occupy their territory. Israeli have a weapons their own production. You personally talk about excellent battle tank "Merkava" as one of the most steady machine in the world. Israeli navy have their own made missle boats.  Produce and sell weapons all over the world (Uzi, Galil, TAR-21, Negev, Desert Eagle). Their own Aerospace industry, advanced technology... 
 
What is Turkey? Their army was create after 1945 by USA and NATO to be a stronghold during Cold war against USSR expansion towards Mediterranean sea and Middle East. The army is western oriented, while masses of the population are Islamists and dreams about long dead Ottoman empire. USA from decades have been donate Turkish army by millions dollars. Army made several coup to take-over embarrass for Washington Islamist and Nationalist governments. After end of the Cold war role of the army in Turkish society begin to fall. For 8 years Turkey is ruled by Islamist and anti-western government. The foreign politics is official focused over recovery of Ottoman empire, which mean aggressive pressure (include military) in South-East Europe (The Balkans) and increase of Turkish influence in Middle East. They used a image of Muslim advocate, protector and leader of Islamic world. Turkey is not USA and NATO ally anymore and people in Washington begin to realize it. EU stoped process of Turkish inclusion, because new Turkish official imperialistic ambition contrary to European interests. Turkey refuse to step in 2003 Iraq war and even refuse to give it`s territory in help of "ally" US army. Turkey recently make a deal with Iranian dictator Ahmadinejad (hateful to Iranian people) to help his nuclear programme in face of all world soceity (EU, USA, and even Russia). From begining of this year Turkish military provocations towards Greece (also NATO member) are something usual and make a deep anxiety in the region. Not only flights by heavily armed Turkish fighters at low altitude over Greek islands in Aegean sea, but also deep break of Greek territorial waters by naval vessels- http://sofiaecho.com/2010/03/16/873927_turkish-naval-corvette-enters-greek-waters-and-sails-almost-to-athens
 
What is Turkish army? Aircrafts- American F-16, tanks- German "Leopard", ammunition and logistic -dependent on NATO. Army personal- big by size, well trained and motivated. Own military products or inventions-none. Nukes-none.
 
It`s  matter of time of similar collision like last one. Izrael ever once respond to the Turkish challenge (diplomatic). Izrael have no fear to attack Turkish ship into international waters. I think they accept the challenge. I personally expect Turkey soon to be excluded from NATO.
 
I should have been more specific I was talking about Naval power in case Isreal attacks the flotilla.
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 03:42
Turkey will come back around they need the US-- They need US Logistical support, and the want the new Joint Strike fighter.
 
As for the invasion of Iraq--Once again SoD you are uninformed--Really you need to read more then jusy sensationilist headlines.
 
Turkey wanted to be the Invading force, they had thier leopards on the Iraqi border, they claim Iraqi land from the border to Kirkuk. When they were told they couldn't claim that land during the invasion thats when they got P@##$# off and refused, they also wanted a lot of US money as a bribe. Guess what we still used our bases in Turkey to attack Iraq, where do you think our planes flew from?
 
I should have specified Turk Naval Power--The Turk Army with out NATO support isn't quite the level of Isreal in terms of a ground army, however they have a good Navy and Good (NATO Supported) Airforce. With NATO support Turkey more than likley is the most powerfull Middle eastern country but not with out NATO.
 

Rank 1-10 Observations: The United States (GFP formula value of 0.184) remains the undisputed leader of our list thanks to their staying "active" in global hotspots, showcasing the world's largest navy and continuing to poor in gobs of money into defense. Our formula sees China edge out Russia but only by the slimmest of margins (0.238 versus 0.241 respectively) with an edge in available manpower and financial capital. France (0.636) and Germany (0.672) are relative equals for the most part but the GFP formula gives a slight edge to France thanks to an aircraft carrier and capable navy as well as a bump in defense spending. Brazil (0.756) is the most powerful South American country on the list thanks to available manpower and a capable navy. Japan (0.920) is a "sleeper" power that sneaks into the top ten with a good navy, strong logistical infrastructure and capital.

Rank 11-20 Observations: Our formula provides for a good disparity between North and South Korea, placing South well-ahead of the North thanks to better infrastructure and capital. Mexico's placement this high on the list is interesting to note - it scored a good balance across the board in all major categories. Israel finally gets a proper placement on this year's list - just out of the top ten - sporting a strong land army with equally strong training, modern equipment and recent combat experience.

 
 
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 03:45
By the way the next most powerfull ME nation is Egypt coming in at 17
 
16
Map of Taiwan Taiwan
17
Map of Egypt Egypt
18
Map of Iran Iran
19
Map of Mexico Mexico


Edited by Maximus Germanicus - 03-Jun-2010 at 03:47
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