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Mysterious sub-Arctic civilization in Europe

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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mysterious sub-Arctic civilization in Europe
    Posted: 21-Mar-2010 at 06:47

Sirtya- are а mythical folk in mythology of Nenets people which live in the most north-eastern tip of European continent . Nenets live in arctic tundra and have a society based on nomadic reindeer. Scientists believe that Nenets came in that region around 1500-1000 years ago from most south-eastern lands around river of Enisey in Siberia. They aren`t indigenous people because not only their legend told that but also their settle into land of modern Arkhangelsk Oblast (westernmost their location) was well documanted during reign of Russian tzar Ivan ІV Groznyi (16th century).

 
 Nenets relate a story connect with their establish in Yamal peninsula about Sirtya - on their language "the true (indigenous) people" of the land. Sirtyans were people of very short stature (like dwarfs) but with strong body and with pale faces. To the Russian explorers Nenets say: "This peoples had hair and eyes just like yours" (Nenets are mongoloid). Opposite to Nenets, Sirtya were hunters and fishermans. While nomad Nenets lived in yurts, the aboriginal Sirtya lived in underground homes in sandy dunes near sea shore or in caves in the highest place. They had ability to come in to sight and disappear immediately, may be for the sake ot their perfectly known of surrounding area and many underground tunnels. According to Nenets Sirtyans stand active only at night and when it`s foggy. Another time they spent in their underground home`s. Of course this behaviour could be provoke by close presence of Nenets. Sirtyans also were capable blacksmith (Nenets haven`t capability to work with metals in that times) and made many iron tools, axes, female decoration and others. Silver, gold and even bronze also wasn`t unknown for them. Nenets told that many things from this Sirtya`s activity include pottery can be found on the ground in different places. Sirtyans wore beautiful clothes from leather decorated with metal plates.
 According to Nenets people they made wars with Sirtyans, but there was also cases when Nenets mans took Sirtyan females for wifes. Then Sitrya begin to disappear while the whole race gone. To the Russian explorer Chernetsov in 1935 Nenets shaman told that just 4 to 6 generations before individual Sirtyans still could be found in northern parts of Yamal peninsula. Single evidences for this people can be found in one Medieval Arab chronicle and Russian chronicle of Gyuratyi Rogovich from Ladoga wrote in 1114. He describe travel of one Russian trader in that region: "...I foung unbelievable miracle, what we didn`t listen before... there is place where the mountains touch the sea and their height is great.. we heard voices and also noise of breaking rocks..they speak to us, but we didn`t understand anything . Than they stretch their hands and wanted an iron. And when we giving to them knife or ax, they giving to us the same things. If the road isn`t so hard because of the abysses, snow and woods, we could be visit this place more often."
 There is also a legend about Sirtya narrated in one Nenets clan. "One summer before many years near the peak Ehal Argish our tribe wanted to make a rest from a long passage. Our people put reindeers to graze on and started to study the area. Suddenly they found sleeping on the ground girl with very short stature. She was unbelievable beauty. This wasn`t seen never before. Her clothing consist in different coloured leathers with silver plates. Near her body lie onto the groung an elegant bag for herbs. This bag was made with great mastership. At once girl stood on her legs and run into the scrub. Searching didn`t give a result. She vanish without any sign. Our people decided to take a bag with them and go back to the herd. They made a yurt and prepere for the night. All the night they listen a sorrow female crying and words: "Where is my bad?", "Where is my bag?", but nobody wanted to go outside of the yurt. On the next day they continue their road in the tundra." Nenets shaman maintain that this bag have a magical ability and according to serious Russian scientists this bag is still preserve somewhere among Nenets people, hidden well by the shamans.
 The new archaeological activity in this harsh region will help to explain white spot of our knowledge. Discoveries are ever here and not for the first time in world history science, myths become a reality.
 New discoveries aren`t only in Yamal peninsula, but also in island Nova Zemlya and whole coast-line of Northern Europe. This showing to us picture of lost ancient civilization in sub-Arctic region, last signs of which reach the late Medieval period. Memory about this human race may be take on effect in many European (peculiar Scandinavian) myths about Dwarfs and Gnomes. This kind of behaviour from Sirtyans easy can be compare with notion about Dwarfs and Gnomes.
 I used a book from 1968 "Sirtya-ancient indigenous people of the Arctic" from Russian author L.P.Lashuk and also articles on this theme only in Russian language. I didn`t find article in Net on different language. If someone can help me with articles on English pleace post!
 


Edited by Kanas_Krumesis - 21-Mar-2010 at 08:31
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2010 at 15:26
Thanks for the fascinating information about the Sirtyans. Please post anymore information that you find. 
 
I wonder of the Sirtyans were descended from an ancient Australoid group like the Ainu of the Kamachatka penninsula and Northeren Japan.  As a side note, the Emishi of North East Honshu were also Australoids.  They were absorbed by Asiatic Japanese in the early Middle Ages.  


Edited by Cryptic - 21-Mar-2010 at 15:31
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2010 at 17:02

Unfortunately almost all sources about the question are in Russian language, and I don`t have enough time to translate it from Russian to English. For me this is sign about lost Paleo-European population of pygmoid. Australoid from Andaman Islands and of course Pygmies from Ecuatorial Africa are good instance. Some scientists accept that Pygmies are different kind of human race. If it be true then Sirtyans were Caucasiod link, while African Pygmies and Australoid from Andaman Islands are tropical link of this race. We must never forget that life conditions also effect over human stature. Harsh conditions create individs with short stature, because they survive easy. Dwarfism among some island`s animal population is an evidence. Conditions in Arctic are just like that, and Escimoes-Arctic indigenous people also have a small sizes. 

I find interesting things searching for role of dwarfs in European mythology. The figure of dwarfs people consist not only in Indo-European mythologies, but also in myth of Finns and other Finno-Ugrian community. I search for relation between Sirtyans and Saami (Laplands) which are also indigenous people in this region, and I was surprise when I found that legents about dwarfs have strong influence in Saami culture. They call them "Chakly" and relate that "Chakly" had appearance and habit just like Saami, but with this differences-very short stature and living uderground. Oscar`s nominated Norwegian film "Pathfinder" from 1987 use for plot ancient Saami legent about "Chakly" child found in wood and bring up from Saami family, who later saved the whole tribe from fierce Chud people. The boy guiding Chuds into the trap and all of then died. So Saami also have close contacts with this kind of people.
 
Personage of pygmies and gnomes are also present in ancient Greek mythology. About pygmies we can say that this personage is a real fact..


Edited by Kanas_Krumesis - 21-Mar-2010 at 17:09
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2010 at 20:16
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

If it be true then Sirtyans were Caucasiod link, while African Pygmies and Australoid from Andaman Islands are tropical link of this race. We must never forget that life conditions also effect over human stature. Harsh conditions create individs with short stature, because they survive easy. Dwarfism among some island`s animal population is an evidence. Conditions in Arctic are just like that, and Escimoes-Arctic indigenous people also have a small sizes. 
That makes perfect sense. Wow, that makes the Sirtyans a unique people.
 
I am surprised that the Sirtyans went extinct or were absorbed by the Nenets. The Sirtyans were the indigenous people, they had settlements and advanced metal weapons. Usually this would give them a big advantage over nomadic peoples such as the Nenets. Maybe the Sitryans migrated out of the area and were absorbed by early Russian settlers?  
  
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

Personage of pygmies and gnomes are also present in ancient Greek mythology. About pygmies we can say that this personage is a real fact..
An we must also include the very real and non human "hobbits" that inhabited an Indonesian Island until 12,000 years ago.  Since leaving Africa, modern humans would have encountered Neandertals, "hobbits" and Homo Erectus. Perhaps some ancient legends are records of contacts with these people  
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 21-Mar-2010 at 20:34
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 00:12

Yes, Sirtyans have their metal weapons (which Russian archaeologist still find in Arctic rocks and caves), but Nenets had more advanced society although their technological undevelope. They have permanent source of food in this harsh region where agriculture is simply impossibility, while Sirtya dependented only from nature. Saami people for example became nomadic reindeer just in 16th century and before that they were hunters and fishermans too. Nenets also were much more numerous, because they came from southern region with quite good condition for living.

The disappear of Sirtya people was because epidemic disease carried from new setllers. There are some Nenets legend about illness among Sirtyans and their inability to go out from their underground home`s in the last days. An epidemic among such a small population of people frequently bring it`s death. Of course wars between them also take`s own. I think it`s very  important making of thorough DNA research through Nenets people, Saami and other groups in that region which will help to find missing chromosome of Sirtyan people. Or this chromosome is even found?
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 08:35
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

I think it`s very  important making of thorough DNA research through Nenets people, Saami and other groups in that region which will help to find missing chromosome of Sirtyan people. 
 Note: these two sources are not scholarly, but travel references.
Sirtyan DNA could be found in ethnic Russians as well. The Russians called the Sirtyans "Pechera"
In the 17th century the Pechera (or some of them existed as an ethnic group)
 
 
I have another theory about the Sirtyans:
 
-Sirtyans are an isolated Caucasoid group.  They are not Pygmoids, but the harsh local conditions do make them shorter like Inuit.
 
-They produce metal weapons and tools, but starting in the 1100s, they also trade with Russians for advanced metals such as bronze or silver (both require extensive mining or smelting) 
 
-When Nenets arrive, most of the Sirtyans (never a large population) are under pressure. They leave the area and migrate to Russian settlements. In the 1600s, this migration accelerates. The fact that the Sirtyans racially resemble Russians, are used to living in permanent settlements and have had prior trade contact with Russian makes their assimilation easy.
 
-Some Sirtyan clans stay in the sub arctic or return to the coast for extended fishing trips. Nenets then exaggerate the physical differences (dwarfs) and cultural differences (underground all the time) of their occasional enemies.   
 
-By early 1800s, tundra living Sirtyans are extinct. Those in settlements no longer make fishing trips to the area and are completely assimilated as Russians.
 


Edited by Cryptic - 22-Mar-2010 at 09:22
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 14:16

Russians used word "Pechera" (or Pechora) for unknown number of finno-ugrian tribes living around river of Pechora. This river flow mainly in taiga, not in tundra. At the same way Russians called all Finish and Estonian tribes with one common name "Chud". In 14th century there was a trade league in Novgorod "Pecherians" organized for trading in this region. It`s accept that the name "Pechera" have been used about Komi people

 
One interesting story about last days of Sirtyans according to Nenets legend, which I`ll try to translate from Russian language. This is a story related from Nenets shaman with name Pak Hudi in brief:
"On the "Lar yara Salya" (The sea cape with sandy hill) situated home of three borthers Sirtyans and their sister, which lived with them. Once to them made arrival messengers from Master of the underworld Nga with request give to him their sister as wife. The three Sirtyan brothers refuse and this made Nga anger. Then he smash the earth - the sky was covered with black and white clouds, mighty thunder bang and  "Lar yara Salya" became bottom of the sea. Only Sirtyan girl survived for miracle and lie without senses on one rock. When she recover she found that her brothers became  underground prisoners." Than the myth talking about advent of a Nenets hero Mando, coming from land where the sun rise. With his help Sirtyan girl managed to free her brothers and restore their home. All world power-water, air and earth recognized their strength and Sirtyans became gods. The traditional happy end.
It seems like some kind of catastrophe...
 
BTW Your theory is very productive.


Edited by Kanas_Krumesis - 22-Mar-2010 at 14:26
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 18:37
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

BTW Your theory is very productive.
 
Thanks for the compliment and for the information about the Finno Ugaric tribes of the sub arctic.
 
I have a few questions:
- Are Finno Ugarics originally Caucasoid?
-Or were they originally Asiatic peoples who have intermarried over centuries with either Scandanavians or Slavic peoples? They seem to have have mostly Caucasian features today.
 
Also, are Sa'ami a seperate people from Finns and other Finno Ugarics?  Are the Sa'ami today Asiatic in appereance?  


Edited by Cryptic - 22-Mar-2010 at 18:52
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2010 at 04:45
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

BTW Your theory is very productive.
 
Thanks for the compliment and for the information about the Finno Ugaric tribes of the sub arctic.
 
I have a few questions:
- Are Finno Ugarics originally Caucasoid?
-Or were they originally Asiatic peoples who have intermarried over centuries with either Scandanavians or Slavic peoples? They seem to have have mostly Caucasian features today.
 
Also, are Sa'ami a seperate people from Finns and other Finno Ugarics?  Are the Sa'ami today Asiatic in appereance?  
 
Oh, it`s a very hard question. First of all Mongoloid appearance is dominant towards Caucasoid. After mixing between both races children rare have some Caucasoid characteristics. Blond hair and fair eyes get lost in almost all of the cases. Second there is clearly seen tendency towards Finno-Ugrians for more Mongoloid appearance from west to the east direction. The westernmost Finno-Ugrian nations like Finns, Estionians, Hungarians, Karelians and other small groups around Baltic sea showing almost 100 % Caucasoid characteristic. Something more-Finland and Estonia possess the biggest percent of blond people in the world (over 90%) and some scholars even think that Indo-Europeans receive their blond hair and fair eyes intermarried with Finno-Ugrians. In the same time easternmost Finno-Ugrian group of Khanty and Mansi people (situated east from Ural mountain) have the biggest percent Mongoloid appearance with some Caucasoid too.
 
Finns
 
Mari people-Finno-Ugrian nation from region of river Volga.
 
Khanty people
 
It`s interesting that the most close Finno-Ugrian nation towards Khanty people are Hungarian. Hungarian language is more close to Khanty than to Finnish language. But Hungarians have very small percent Mongoloid appearance. According to one friend of mine from Hungary 2000 years ago all Finno-Ugrian peoples were Caucasoid and they were indigenous population in both side of the Ural mountains. Around 800 A.D. there arrived first Mongoloid tribes (like Nenets) coming from eastern Siberia and became mixing with Khanty and Mansi people. Hungarians came in Central Europe earlier and didn`t effect from this process. Then in first half of 13th century Tataro-Mongols annihilated Volga Bulgaria and spread their gene among Finno-Ugrians in Volga region and in western Ural. It was in small proportion but mixed tribes group (like Bashkirs) from that period are historic fact.  
The most typical thing about Finno-Ugrian appearance is their round face and wide cheekbonе. This is not usual for Indo-European standard. This kind of feature was typical according many scientists about Paleo-European population. In actually Bulgarian archaeologists also find human skulls from earlier layers with this kind of proportion. Among Saami people we can see this very well. It`s well known fact that Saami are one of the oldest human groups in European continent. They fall to Finno-Ugrian language family.
Sofia Jannuk-Saami singer of traditional Yoik music from Sweden. The music is simply magical and you can see some of her videos in You tube  
 
Traditional Saami family
 
 
 


Edited by Kanas_Krumesis - 23-Mar-2010 at 11:16
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2010 at 08:39
Thanks for a very interesting presentation! It is certainly sad that we have no one with the time or capability to persue the Russian reports about this group more extensively!

But, what little we have, certainly presents more questions than answers!

http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2010 at 13:24
Yes, thanks for the extensive information and great photos.  
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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2011 at 16:30
The girl with the high cheekbones and blond hair is so pretty. I don't find that theory that Finno-ugrians were originally Caucasoid before being "mongolized" by east asian populations. Unless some pre-historic bones can be found that date to thousands of years before the Uralic peoples supposedly mixed with Mongoloids.

I think the original Uralics were probably resembled Native Americans and Native Siberians with light skin, dark hair and slanted eyes/high cheekbones, but mixed with Nordic races.

Haplogroup maps also attest to this. Finns are about 90% Nordic from what I read and 10% Uralic/Siberian.

Interaction between Uralic and IE peoples started a long time ago. Finnish is also said to have a lot of influence from Sanskrit, an early IE language that started in the Russian stepped with close links to Slavic languages.


Edited by PakistaniShield - 18-Jun-2011 at 16:32
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2011 at 22:06
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

  I don't find that theory that Finno-ugrians were originally Caucasoid before being "mongolized" by east asian populations.

I think the original Uralics were probably resembled Native Americans and Native Siberians with light skin, dark hair and slanted eyes/high cheekbones, but mixed with Nordic races.
I disagree.  I truly think that blond hair and light eyes are the indigenous traits of the Sa'ami and other Finno Ugarics.  A good source illustrating that light complected caucasoids are indigenous to some parts of Siberia are the Nenets (Asiatic nomadic group). 
 
Though they have lived in the area for centuries, they related that the indigenous inhabitants (Sirtyans) were distinctly light complected with blond hair.  My guess is that the Sirtyans were an isolated Finno Ugaric tribe  (or Sa'ami) that were absorbed by Russians.
 
Originally posted by PakistaniShield


I think the original Uralics were probably resembled Native Americans and Native Siberians with light skin, dark hair and slanted eyes/high cheekbones, but mixed with Nordic races.
I dont think so.  Until modern times, intermarriage between Sa'ami and Nordics was rare.  Even Sa'ami tribes in Finland lived in isolated communities in the far north and retreated further northward to avoid lasting contact with Finns and Nordics. I dont think the dominate dark hair / brown eyed traits would have been eliminated in the Sa'ami thiough isolated intermarriage with people having the regressive light hair / light eyes trait. 
Originally posted by PakistaniShield


I think the original Uralics were probably resembled Native Americans and Native Siberians with.... high cheekbones,
The high cheek bones do seem to be trait of the Sa"ami and some other Finno Ugarics.  I saw a photos of a Finnish Sa'ami soldier taken during the winter war.   He also had high cheek bones.
Your mention that some (or many?) Native Americans are also known for their high cheek bones is interesting.  
 
What if.....
 
- The physical traits of the Sa'ami and western finno ugarics (including cheek bones) today are their ancient features from neolithic times.
 
- The Solutrians were a Sa'ami or finno ugaric people
 
-The solutrians then transmit the high cheek bone trait to the Americas in their theoretical pre historic migrations.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_theory Thus, native Americans get high cheek bones from Sa'ami and from Asiatic people.  In the Americas, however, regressive light hair / eye traits get eliminated from the populations.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 18-Jun-2011 at 22:39
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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2011 at 01:45
@cryptic of course native americans have high cheekbones. Did you not know that? Native Americans resemble North East Asians to the fullest.

The Finno-Urgrians who are Caucasoid are primarily of European descent but speak Uralic languages. Take for example people from Turkey. They speak a language related to Mongolian but most of them don't resemble Mongolians at all. They resemble North Africans like Egyptians and some also resemble Europeans.

Ancient Uralic tribes mated with various Caucasoid groups including Indo-Europeans. I consider Finns to be an ethnically Germanic people with some Uralic influence and also speaking a Uralic language.


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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2011 at 01:46
@cryptic i replied to your PMs so don't forget to check your inbox. Thanks
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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2011 at 14:24
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

@cryptic of course native americans have high cheekbones. Did you not know that? Native Americans resemble North East Asians to the fullest.

The Finno-Urgrians who are Caucasoid are primarily of European descent but speak Uralic languages. Take for example people from Turkey. They speak a language related to Mongolian but most of them don't resemble Mongolians at all. They resemble North Africans like Egyptians and some also resemble Europeans.

Ancient Uralic tribes mated with various Caucasoid groups including Indo-Europeans. I consider Finns to be an ethnically Germanic people with some Uralic influence and also speaking a Uralic language.


 
@PakistaniShield I`m pleased for your interest in the topic. In fact it is not easily one nation to abandon to their language and to embrace a foreign language. It is a necessary at least some  military intervention (as is the case with the Turkish/Mongol language in the Middle East). The use often requires by force. Furthermore the imposition culture must be superior towards the subordinate. What in the case of Romanization and Hellenization in Antiquity. On the other hand despite 200 years of British domination over the territories of what is now Pakistan, nobody adopted English as their mother tongue.
 No data Finno-Ugric people to have been great conquerors. Hungarians are a special case. Finns in particular receive state formation only in 1919. Before that they were under Slavic (Novgorod), Viking, Swedish and Russian rule. In fact they have fought to preserve their identity and language. Not to spread their own. Today many Finno-Ugric nations, once numerous, are on the verge of extinction due to the growing Russification. In December 2005 only 24 people could speak Votic language. 1000 ago Votes people were thousands and they inhabited the territory of modern St. Petersburg. The Saami people are very isolated and conservative group, even today. I do not think they were able to intermarriage with Germans or other Indo-European peoples 2000 years ago, since no data they are done in more recent historical times.
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  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2011 at 00:50
Thanks for reply. And you're right about many things. Will touch on the topic again soon when i have time.

Thanks for reply. Appreciated.
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