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Standards! Are they what we think?

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Standards! Are they what we think?
    Posted: 15-Jan-2014 at 00:48
Yes, toyomotor you might well be correct! So, since you know so much then why don't you educate all of us?

I would certainly love to learn what you claim to know?

Regards, Ron
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2014 at 19:17
Opuslola: I don't intend to continue this with you. You made an incorrect assumption that I believed that the Trefoil and Fleur de Lis were not heraldic symbols. I've never said that. There's not even anything for us to disagree about, so why persist?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2014 at 20:40
I concede that you are more educated upon the arts of heraldry than am I. But I just think that we or I had a misunderstanding. I apologize for being out of bounds in my post.

Can you explain the apparent development of the "Frog", the Trefoil, and the Flower?

And, oh! Just whom could forget about those pesky "bees?" smile

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 15-Jan-2014 at 21:50
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2014 at 23:30
Originally posted by opuslola

I concede that you are more educated upon the arts of heraldry than am I. But I just think that we or I had a misunderstanding. I apologize for being out of bounds in my post.
Can you explain the apparent development of the "Frog", the Trefoil, and the Flower?
And, oh! Just whom could forget about those pesky "bees?" smile

Regards, Ron

Frogs in Heraldry, also referred to as toads, tadpoles, or powets. Used occasionally in English heraldry, but not found in French heraldry. Represents rapid determination. I'm not able to detail why a frog was chosen as each charge used on Arms granted to an individual are specific to the individual to whom they are granted, for example, bravery in Battle, or a deed noted by the King. The King of The Franks had three frogs as his charge. The Fleur de Lis, as I posted earlier represents a stylized form of the lily. It is the floral badge of France and is known as the "flower of light." It may represent one who fought for France - or against France. It also became an emblem of political power in France. The fleur de lis represents the Virgin Mary. In Ireland the fleur-de-lis often has a Christian significance. It may also represent the sixth son.Flowers are the symbol of hope and joy, and like the rest, the meaning is specific to an individual.
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2014 at 23:57
Opuslola: History of the Coat of Arms



The use of emblems and symbols as a means of identification is both ancient and worldwide. From the most ancient times, emblems have been used by families, clans, tribes, cities and nations, and by organizations of various kinds, both national and international.

There are those that believe that heraldic symbols go back to the 12 tribes of Israel. They claim that many of the heraldic symbols used in the middle ages derived from similar symbols used on the standards of the various tribes. Modern heraldry has evolved from this early form of heraldry, which became increasingly formalized during the middle ages.

The development of the suit of armor in the 12th century in Western Europe gave rise to individuals using heraldry symbols to differentiate men in armor from one another. The original thought behind the chosen heraldic symbol can almost never be known. Some choices are obvious - i.e. Bells to represent the name Belles or a bird as a play on the name Byrd.

One of the guiding principles of heraldry was that a coat of arms should clearly identify a particular person while at the same time attaching some importance to the family he belonged to. This led to the creation of distinguishing signs. In many instances the crest served as a means of differentiating individuals, and, as a result, their own family lines.

The system of a special mark of difference, or mark of cadency, (see Mark of Cadency section) for each member of the family began with Henry III. In medieval times the marks of difference on Italian arms were designs which represented one's political allegiance. Scotland, as well as many other countries, developed their own system of marks of difference. With each succeeding generation the process became more cumbersome. Great Britain is the only country in the world in which the classical procedure of using a mark of difference for individuals is still customary, and this is primarily the use of a silver label in the royal family.

There is a difference between the marks distinguishing the different members of a particular family and marks of favor. In almost all countries, and particularly those with a monarchy, additional signs are granted to deserving people, and also communities. These symbols are usually taken from the state or country arms of their sovereign. Thus many family arms bear a royal symbol.

Generally the language of heraldry suggests its warlike origin. The term Coat of arms is derived from the surcoat worn over the armor to keep off the rays of the sun. It was a waistcoat-like garment, on which the heraldic design was depicted. The knight wore the arms shown on the surcoat on his shield, the trappings of his horse, and his lance pennon. In addition, he might have painted on his helmet what was called his crest. Not all knights chose a crest. The motto is not an integral part of the coat of arms, and may be changed at the will of the user.

There are many terms used to indicate the heraldry design worn by the knight. They are referred to as coat of arms, arms, armorial bearings, armorial achievement, and shield. Some erroneously use the term crest to refer to the entire coat of arms.

A woman's coat of arms is not to be shown on her own shield or equipped with a helmet and crest because she is not expected to go to war. However, if she is a queen, she is entitled to the full heraldic achievement, with helmet, crest and shield. This is because the gender of the sovereign is immaterial in heraldry.

A symbol (charge) from a woman's coat of arms can be included on a husband's coat of arms if he so desires. This act, known as Marshaling, is especially prevalent if the wife is an heiress. This system of marshaling first began in Spain in the thirteenth century.

For more info see http://www.familynamesonline.com/coahistory.html
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2014 at 15:19
Thanks for the good posts! I always tend to consider the "Franks" as also French so some confusion is always apparent. After all, the French have been called "Frogs" for centuries, just like the Germans were referred to as Krauts, presumable because they loved sour kraut!, and even "cabbage heads!"

I contend that the standards mentioned above are all related and represent historical evolutionary developments of the symbol. What do you think?


How about this view of the execution?

http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/http-inlinethumb55.webshots.com-45494-2402807310104391629S600x600Q85.jpg

Or this one of the battle.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2447/4039593544_3ce6189a38_z.jpg

But why am I wasting your time and mine, here is a whole page of views of this battle.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=saladin+and+the+battle+of+hattin&qpvt=saladin+and+the+battle+of+hattin&FORM=IGRE#a

Enjoy,

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 21-Jan-2014 at 15:43
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2014 at 19:29
Opuslola: No, let's not go off thread. This topic is interesting. I don't know how the various heraldic symbology developed, except to say that certain symbols came to represent some noteworthy performance (in a lot of cases) by the bearer. I'll do some more research and get back to you when I have it.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2014 at 21:04
Thanks! I am now going through some home improvements and I am nothing but nerves!

If one is afraid of home improvements and have not done one, the stay afraid!

Regards, Ron
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2014 at 00:41
I've created a new thread called "History of Heraldry". I've provided a very brief outline of what I've found so far.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2014 at 00:23
I am not sure most readers understand just what "standard" as we use it here, was really present in the past.


Thus if any of you wondered about the above, then you should know, that to my knowledge a "standard" is commonly see in the company of other standards, as a wedge shaped flag, like those commonly sold years ago, that is perched upon a long shaft and held in the air above the mele', and used to stand for a place to either gather around before as battle or to respond to if a signal directed it.

Ron
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2014 at 23:13
I will also suggest that our lamented poster "toyomotor", whom shall post not more, made a great post above;


"The development of the suit of armor in the 12th century in Western Europe gave rise to individuals using heraldry symbols to differentiate men in armor from one another. The original thought behind the chosen heraldic symbol can almost never be known. Some choices are obvious - i.e. Bells to represent the name Belles or a bird as a play on the name Byrd."


Well it seems the father we move the more questions are asked.

And is it just a quaint point in our currently accepted chronology that one of our few Eastern Crusades also began, with Papal authority and redemption also stated about this same time????

ron


Edited by opuslola - 04-Mar-2014 at 23:20
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2014 at 16:47
http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/http-inlinethumb55.webshots.com-45494-2402807310104391629S600x600Q85.jpg


Another version of the final outcome of the Battle of Hattin.

If someone can do it, could you post the actual scene?

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 05-Mar-2014 at 16:48
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