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Why Muslims are a dangerous people?!

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why Muslims are a dangerous people?!
    Posted: 14-Mar-2010 at 03:49
I don't know why in every country that I visit, the only people that we should fear them are Muslims?!! However we are ourselves Muslims but it is highly recommended to not trust our fellow religious people and be always careful in contact with them! Sometimes I fear myself! Confused
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2010 at 15:50
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I don't know why in every country that I visit, the only people that we should fear them are Muslims?!! However we are ourselves Muslims but it is highly recommended to not trust our fellow religious people and be always careful in contact with them! Sometimes I fear myself! Confused


This is a tough topic because whenever I criticize radical/Orthodox Islam I am called names like; Islamophobic, bigot, racist, fear monger, etc. The biggest target of radical Islam is their fellow Muslims. The violence between the Sunni and Shiite is very sad. There is less difference theologically between these two groups than Protestant and Roman Catholic Christianity.

Of course I have met many Muslims who are not violent but how can we tell who is who? I never assume but by their fruit you will know them, this applies to everyone.

There are some Muslim groups taking a stand against the radicals:


http://www.aifdemocracy.org/

http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/

Cyrus - here is one you might find interesting:

http://www.iricrimes.org/

Can anyone add others in the USA/Canada and in other nations.



Edited by eaglecap - 18-Mar-2010 at 15:56
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2010 at 09:49
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I don't know why in every country that I visit, the only people that we should fear them are Muslims?!! However we are ourselves Muslims but it is highly recommended to not trust our fellow religious people and be always careful in contact with them! Sometimes I fear myself! Confused


What countries have you been to?   I have only been to one Muslim country =Turkiye.   I had no problems there and some of the Turks I met I am still in contact with. They were moderate in their beliefs and some were not religious at all. Some of the Turkish Muslims reminded of Roman Catholics I have known who go to Mass once a year and still claim they are Roman Catholic. The only real Catholic country I have been to is Mexico, France is very secular. It is a shame you cannot trust those who share a common faith and have to fear them. I know in Algeria over 100,000 moderate Muslims were murdered by the Muslims who follow the traditions of Muhammad- the Suni.   I have read most of the Qur'an and some Hadith versus but not the Suni or traditions of Muhammad.
I should try and find the Algerian story- now we have a new fanatic religion- the Jedhi Knights - for real
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2010 at 13:18
As I meantioned in this thread, I have just visited some countries around Iran, of course India can be added to this list too, except this one and Armenia, all other ones are considered as Muslim countries, but in all of them almost a large number of non-Muslims also live, I visited some Arab Christian cities in Syria and Lebanon, and the people of these cities were really polite and trustable, I remember that our tour guide said that you can go out at nights in these cities and don't worry about anything, but in Delhi, our tour guide didn't even allow us to leave the bus for going to the Bazaar in the the Muslim quarter of the old city, she said I can never guarantee that you come back satisfied from there! In another Muslim country, I remember someone stole my money in the bazaar of Nakhchivan and the interesting thing was that other people in the bazaar helped the thief to escape from my hand! But in Armenia, we went ourselves with no tour guide, and that was the safest trip that I have gone on so far.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2010 at 15:32
Cyrus, I would suggest that you consider a trip to Mississippi? Real people, and real religious "love thy neighbor" feelings! No matter what the media has said, it is here in the "heart of the South" that people find satisfaction and security!

Actually it is kind of weird?

PS, Mississippi, like a lot of the Old South, has a very large population of families from Lebanon! Also, one of the oldest Jewish Temples in America was located in Jackson, MS!

However, where I live, the majority of people would be considered as Roman Catholic, which is 180 degrees different from the rest of the state, which is almost 90% Protestant or Baptist!

Note, that I do not consider "Baptists" as Protestants!

Note that the only Muslim nation I have ever visited was also Turkey! And, our female tour guide in Istanbul, was overly anti-Muslim! While I made the women in my care, cover themselves and dress approprately while going into Muslim holy places, our native guide openly desired to insult those at prayer!

Too much secularism, spoils the broth!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 19-Mar-2010 at 15:36
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2010 at 23:32

I think the religious freedom in the USA is well known in the world but I'm talking about Islamic violence everywhere in the world even in the USA, the reason can be that Islam doesn't teach us the tolerance!

"Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the true religion (Islam) from among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jaziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued." (Quran: Al Taubah: 9 - 29)

But if you fight:

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land Is: 'Execution, or Crucifixion, or the Cutting and Removing Off of hands and feet from OPPOSITE sides, or exile from the land.' That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter." (Quran: Al-Ma'idah: 5 - 33)

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2010 at 11:10
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think the religious freedom in the USA is well known in the world but I'm talking about Islamic violence everywhere in the world even in the USA, the reason can be that Islam doesn't teach us the tolerance!


"Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the true religion (Islam) from among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jaziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued." (Quran: Al Taubah: 9 - 29)


But if you fight:


"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land Is: 'Execution, or Crucifixion, or the Cutting and Removing Off of hands and feet from OPPOSITE sides, or exile from the land.' That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter." (Quran: Al-Ma'idah: 5 - 33)



Yes, I see it happening more and more as we bring in more Muslim immigrants and refugees. They are not all bad but some do not want to assimilate into our nation. Some say they want to replace our Constitution/Bill of Rights with Sharia law but not without a fight. Some in our government seemed to be siding with them or are not facing the reality of the danger we are in.

I know many, on the old forum, did not like Robert Spencer but he has been a Paul Revere in America.   He is warning us about what will happen if we, as Americans, do not take a stand.

In his latest book he talks about how the Islamacist could take over without firing a shot.




Edited by eaglecap - 20-Mar-2010 at 11:22
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2010 at 15:07
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

but I'm talking about Islamic violence everywhere in the world even in the USA,
Modern Christianity has also advocated violence, but indirectly.  President Bush's decision to invade Iraq was in part encouraged by evangelical protestant pastors who saw the invasion as part of their end times theology (Book of Revelations). Others viewed the invasion as an extension of the purported role of ancient and modern Israel in end times theology.
 
As the invasion went badly, many of these same pastors quietly withdrew their invasion "Fatwas".  In the end, Evangelical Christianity in the USA and Shia Islam in Iran experienced a similar phenomena. National defense policy was being directed by clergy using holy books as guidiance.
The only difference was that in Iran, the clergy were / are in direct control. In the USA, the clergy only had an indirect role of influence to an individual president.   


Edited by Cryptic - 20-Mar-2010 at 15:12
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2010 at 18:52
Its weird that in Delhi people were against muslims, they should know that most of the historics structures in the city, clothes, food etcc in north india are influences heavly by muslims
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2010 at 20:38
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

but I'm talking about Islamic violence everywhere in the world even in the USA,

Modern Christianity has also advocated violence, but indirectly.  President Bush's decision to invade Iraq was in part encouraged by evangelical protestant pastors who saw the invasion as part of their end times theology (Book of Revelations). Others viewed the invasion as an extension of the purported role of ancient and modern Israel in end times theology.


No disrespect Crytic but this is half truths and shows how little you know about Christianity in general.   I Initially supported the war in Iraq and so did many Americans both religious and non-religious. It was Pat Buchanan who changed my mind about Iraq and others. Protestant Pastors saw this as only a possible Revelation of the end times and had no war agenda. They might see this as the hand of God but they do not promote killing people. How many sermons have you been to? I went through a church phase but now I am a universalist but I never saw the claims you are making. Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox people, in America, tend to be very peaceful and non-violent. There are always exception and many Muslim are peaceful as well. Bush has distanced himself from many Christians and some believe he was a phony and used the Christians to get votes. The belief Bush holds only represents about 5% of the Evangelicals. He holds the same views as Pat Robertson who often makes dumb statements.   There are always exceptions but overall the violence in Islam far out weighs anything in the christian faith   I put up some links to show that some Muslim groups are good and decent in the USA.


 

As the invasion went badly, many of these same pastors quietly withdrew their invasion "Fatwas".  In the end, Evangelical Christianity in the USA and Shia Islam in Iran experienced a similar phenomena. National defense policy was being directed by clergy using holy books as guidiance.

The only difference was that in Iran, the clergy were / are in direct control. In the USA, the clergy only had an indirect role of influence to an individual president.   


Fatwas do not exist in Christianity and Christians have no more influence politically than anyone else, even as flawed as it is.   Remember this is a Representative Government so what is wrong with any group being active politically.   Comparing Muslim clergy to Christian Pastors is like comparing apples to onions, no comparison.

I have not been to many Muslim countries but I found the Muslims, on the most part, in Turkiye very friendly. The only person that told me they did not like me because I was American was a young Communist.   I did not worry in Turkiye but I have known several Christians who left the Middle East because of persecution by Muslims.

Cyrus don't worry you don't have to worry that some crazy Christians will stone you in the USA.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 04:35
Christians were also a dangerous people especially in the Dark Ages, but I think Christianity in the modern times is just a religion and one of the elements in a society, but in an Islamic society, Islam is the core element and other elements depend on it, for this reason we see Muslims can't even celebrate their ancient pre-Islamic festivals, if Islam doesn't confirm them! Maybe if Muslims believed in a generally accepted morality, the situation could be so much better than this and they wouldn't be called terrorists.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 09:38
Originally posted by eaglecap

Protestant Pastors saw this as only a possible Revelation of the end times and had no war agenda. They might see this as the hand of God but they do not promote killing people.
Evangelical Christians have been adamant that U.S. power be used to protect Israel for religous reasons. Saddam Hussein was a threat to Israel (however distant) and therefore warfare with him was justified.  Since the evangelical pastors who had the presdient's ear were also viewing the war as destiny or "the hand of God", all cautionary advise associated with war decisions went out the window.   Any chance that some concluded that the "hand of God" was calling them to act?
Originally posted by eaglecap

Christians have no more influence politically than anyone else, even as flawed as it is.   Remember this is a Representative Government so what is wrong with any group being active politically.   
By number, Evangelical Christians have far more influence here than say Buddhists, Muslims or ethnic Palestinians.  No, there is nothing wrong with influence in a represenative government. It  is also foolish to deny that such an influence exists.
Originally posted by eaglecap

  Comparing Muslim clergy to Christian Pastors is like comparing apples to onions, no comparison.
I suppose the facts that both are human, adherents to an Abrahmic theology of active divine revelation and intervention in the world and that both groups have human failings are unimportant.  Embarrassed 
Originally posted by eaglecap

Bush has distanced himself from many Christians and some believe he was a phony and used the Christians to get votes. The belief Bush holds only represents about 5% of the Evangelicals. He holds the same views as Pat Robertson who often makes dumb statements.   
Yikes, first you state that Protestant Pastors are inherently different than Muslims and would never have encouraged war (either directly or indirectly). Then you state that Bush has distanced himself from some and that 5% do hold his beliefs. Which is it? 
Originally posted by eaglecap

 How many sermons have you been to? I went through a church phase but now I am a universalist but I never saw the claims you are making.
Perhaps you did not have your objective eyes open.
- I have seen many on T.V. Especially Hagge from San Antonio. 
- I have also watched evangelical  "docu dramas" religously justifying Israeli settlements in the west bank, the use of U.S. power to protect Israel.
- Several Evangelical churches that I did attend (as a guest) had extensive displays linking the theological interests of evangelical Christians with the political goals of Israel. 
-The Christian bookstores that I visit have extensive selections of sensationalized prophecy interpertation and how it relates to modern middle eastern politics, Islam etc.
 
Also, notice that I said "Fatwas" in quotes. I am aware that Fatwas per se do not exist in Christianity. The concept (religous authorities giving sanction to a government policy), however, does exist. 


Edited by Cryptic - 22-Mar-2010 at 10:31
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 10:46
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by eaglecap

Protestant Pastors saw this as only a possible Revelation of the end times and had no war agenda. They might see this as the hand of God but they do not promote killing people.


Evangelical Christians have been adamant that U.S. power be used to protect Israel for religous reasons. Saddam Hussein was a threat to Israel (however distant) and therefore warfare with him was justified.  Since the evangelical pastors who had the presdient's ear were also viewing the war as destiny or "the hand of God", all cautionary advise associated with war decisions went out the window.   Any chance that some concluded that the "hand of God" was calling them to act?


Originally posted by eaglecap

Christians have no more influence politically than anyone else, even as flawed as it is.   Remember this is a Representative Government so what is wrong with any group being active politically.   

By number, Evangelical Christians have far more influence here than say Buddhists, Muslims or ethnic Palestinians.  No, there is nothing wrong with influence in a represenative government. It  is also foolish to deny that such an influence exists.

Originally posted by eaglecap

  Comparing Muslim clergy to Christian Pastors is like comparing apples to onions, no comparison.


I suppose the facts that both are human, adherents to an Abrahmic theology of active divine revelation and intervention in the world and that both groups have human failings are unimportant.  Embarrassed 

Originally posted by eaglecap

Bush has distanced himself from many Christians and some believe he was a phony and used the Christians to get votes. The belief Bush holds only represents about 5% of the Evangelicals. He holds the same views as Pat Robertson who often makes dumb statements.   

Yikes, first you state that Protestant Pastors are inherently different than Muslims and would never have encouraged war (either directly or indirectly). Then you state that Bush has distanced himself from some and that 5% do hold his beliefs. Which is it? 


Originally posted by eaglecap

 How many sermons have you been to? I went through a church phase but now I am a universalist but I never saw the claims you are making.

Perhaps you did not have your objective eyes open.

- I have seen many on T.V. Especially Hagge from San Antonio. 

- I have also watched evangelical  "docu dramas" religously justifying Israeli settlements in the west bank, the use of U.S. power to protect Israel.

- Several Evangelical churches that I did attend (as a guest) had extensive displays linking the theological interests of evangelical Christians with the political goals of Israel. 

-The Christian bookstores that I visit have extensive selections of sensationalized prophecy interpertation and how it relates to modern middle eastern politics, Islam etc.

 

Also, notice that I said "Fatwas" in quotes. I am aware that Fatwas per se do not exist in Christianity. The concept (religous authorities giving sanction to a government policy), however, does exist. 


This is a typical tactic to side track the issue by playing the moral equivalence game of who is more evil.   It simply avoids the question posed by Cyrus- Why Muslims are a dangerous people?

I do not want to get sidetracked because we all know that there are fanatics in all religious and political movements.
I do look at it objectivel and have had more exposure to Christianity that you have had.   I was raised Lutheran but we attended the Greek Orthodox Church for a fews years. I attended a Baptist elementary school and later got sucked into the Evangelical movement, after being an agnostic. I tend to believe one man’s way to Heaven is another man’s way to Hell, so today I think all religions have some truth.

I do agree about the political support of Israel which I side with but also believe in a Palestinean homeland but that is another issue. I don’t want to side track beasue then I will bring up the fate of the Palestinean Christians- another thread.

By number, Evangelical Christians have far more influence here than say Buddhists, Muslims or ethnic Palestinians. No, there is nothing wrong with influence in a represenative government. It is also foolish to deny that such an influence exists.

You only have to look at the roots of our nation to understand this, but I am glad that other faiths are more prominent in America. I don’t deny it but I face the reality that most Americans are at least cultural Christians. Why do you only focus on the Evangelicals because there are a lot of Roman Catholics and Mormons as well. It is true the Evangelicals are the greatest supporters of Israel but don’t leave out the other Christian groups.


Yikes, first you state that Protestant Pastors are inherently different than Muslims and would never have encouraged war (either directly or indirectly). Then you state that Bush has distanced himself from some and that 5% do hold his beliefs. Which is it?

I am sure there are some who are nuts but most do not and I have sat under more sermons than you ever have so please. Most Pastors speak in spiritual terms and prophecy or God's will. I may not agree with them, but you cannot compare this to current events with Islam today. The actions of Bush have turned off many Christians today and I have heard many state they he was only using Christians for the vote. Even the great Michael Savage has stated this and has called Bush a liar and phony and that he used the Christians for political reasons.

You cannot lump all Christian Pastor in one group because their views can vary so much. They don’t encourage war but see this conflict as the predestined will of God. Good vs. evil but we all know that there are always exceptions.

The question is being avoided though by focusing elsewhere.   We could really sidetrack and talk about other fanatic groups such as: Communist, Hindus, Buddhist, PETA, extreme environmental groups, abortion bombers,nationalist etc

Why can’t we answer his question - Why Muslims are a dangerous people.

From now on I will only address his question but your are free to comment. I will try and bring up the truly moderate Muslims who are an asset to humanity.

Here is an example of Muslims against Muslims



http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/03/22/malaysia-women039s-group-sued-over-039islam039-name.html

American Muslim groups I side with:

http://www.aifdemocracy.org/

http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/

Here is a greater concern for me today and maybe after i read thoroughly it I can start it in current events:

Trans Texas Corridor racing ahead

http://www.augustreview.com/news_commentary/north_american_union/trans_texas_corridor_racing_ahead_20100322157/

Edited by eaglecap - 22-Mar-2010 at 11:45
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 11:49
Originally posted by eaglecap

 
Why do you only focus on the Evangelicals because there are a lot of Roman Catholics and Mormons as well. It is true the Evangelicals are the greatest supporters of Israel but don’t leave out the other Christian groups.
Because evangelicals teach that God is actively working through human events, that Biblical prophecy is being fullfilled and that humans can learn what this prophecy is and then chose what role they will play in it.
 
This makes evangelicals very different regarding Middle Eastern politics than Orthodox, Catholic and mainstream protestants.  Mormons also share the evangelical approach to a degree, but their effective numbers are far smaller (about 3 million)
 
Then factor in that may mainstream protestant denominations (Lutheran, Presbyterian) have demographically collapsed, that active Catholic membership has "taken a hit", and that Mormon numbers have been exaggerated.
Originally posted by eaglecap

I am sure there are some who are nuts but most do not and I have sat under more sermons than you ever have so please. Most Pastors speak in spiritual terms and prophecy or God's will. I may not agree with them, but you cannot compare this to current events with Islam today.
When the Pastors concluded that the looming war was "the will of God", (1.) what did they conclude about somebody who attempts to obstruct the will of God? (2.) Should believers, even a president, submit themselves to "God's will", even if means war?
 
I bet the answers were:
1.) "At best such actipns are futile. At worst, these people are opposed to the will of God and against Christ."
2.) "All humans must follow the will of God, even if that means war."
 
I agree with you, religous influence towards violence is far more pervasive in Islam today.  There is nothing, however, intrinsic about Chrsitianity (sister religion to Islam) that prevents Pastors or Priests from directly or indirectly promoting violence. I dont doubt that you have sat through more sermons than me.  
 


Edited by Cryptic - 22-Mar-2010 at 12:05
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 13:31

agree with you, religous influence towards violence is far more pervasive in Islam today. There is nothing, however, intrinsic about Chrsitianity (sister religion to Islam) that prevents Pastors or Priests from directly or indirectly promoting violence. I dont doubt that you have sat through more sermons than me.

That can be true and I have heard of Cults in the USA being violent or contolling over their members. Overall, I never saw this in most churches. I just thought they were too narrow minded and the idea of other good: Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, and other people of faith going to Hell forever was wrong. I cannot see God being so cruel but that is only my opinion.

I believe Mormonism would have possibly turned violent if they had remained isolated. The conquest of Mexican territories changed this. I almost became one when I was younger but my Greek Orthodox mother would not allow their missionaries to come into our house. I did study some of their older theology which they deny now but we need to get back to the question in hand.

Why Muslims are a dangerous people?!

I would rather this say, why are some Muslims a dangerous people? The question lumps them all together but I realize this is not what Cyrus meant.

Cyrus please tell us more about your experiences so we can better understand.   I really did not have any issues overseas but Turkiye was more liberal- 2006.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2010 at 15:17
Like I said I will post anything positive about Muslims in the USA because not all Muslims are evil, there are some groups I respect.

Religious tolerance starts at home
By M. Zuhdi Jasser

http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/89300107.html
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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 11:07
If during the 11 century internet existed the muslims would ask  -Why Catholics are dangerous people?
Differently times, differently people, differently ideals, but one think is sure - the stupidity doesn't go in the forest, but people. I'm sure if the Pope  today call a Crusade to Jerusalem there would be  thousand of voluntaries. Then you would ask yourself - are we nuts or they?
 
Everybody listen only this which understands.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 14:59
If every major religion in the world was run by a group who only thought of themselves as the "sacred religion" then the world might already be destroyed?

Religion as a political animal is a very wicked animal! Political thought, that consideres its precepts, etc., as the only way to a "perfect state" are no different! Political thought, today, is much like the "religious" thought of the past!

The State, and the Ideals of the State, have only replaced a God, with an anti-God!

Just my two cents worth, and today, it is not worth much!
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 16:51
So, Moslems want to build a Mosque nearby to gound-zero in NYC! It is reportedly to be built for "peace!" Sounds great, does it not?

And, to show my opinion, I would let the following speak for me!

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html

But, I tend to think that my opion might well be a minority opinion on this site?



Edited by opuslola - 24-Jul-2010 at 16:55
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 17:56
We have a constitution, here is the first amendment of that constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Deal with it, this is the United States of America, not the Confederate States of America.
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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