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Finding the original date!

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Finding the original date!
    Posted: 21-Jan-2010 at 16:59
Hello members, and others! This post is a question designed to find out a basic truth or truism!

That is, when our history and chronology was first placed into writing or print, the collecters of this mass of information had to have derived a date, from which all other dates could be related! Thus the following post;

AD / BC means very little if one does not really know the correct generation / period / century / millennium in which to begin!

Pray tell me just what date is the starting point? That is, by what standard does anyone determine just what epoch was used as the "prime" number? I would suggest that it is mostly a "tradition" that keeps it going?

But, this is a question for everyone, just what event in history can be fully justified as a "real time?"

And if it was a "real time", then by what evidence is there presented, to make it acceptable to us today?

Was it a celestial event?
Was it an eruption?
Was it a flood?
Was it a plague?
Was it a lineage from someones family that exists today, that is traced back over 2,000 years?
Was it merely? astronomical?
Was it a drought?   
Was it a "little Ice Age?"
Was it the birth of a King or Queen?
Was it the birth or death of a Saint?
Was it a military victory or defeat?
Was it merely the "general opinion?"

Pray, I plead, just what do each of you place complete / unequivocal (meaning " Admitting of no doubt or misunderstanding; clear and unambiguous", evidence towards that you would bet your life upon it, was the date, you would chose, by which all other dates are to be constrained or considered?

It is obvious if you considered the last addrress I left on this site (http://skeptically.org/oldtestament/id15.html), that a great many "great minds" who actually live much closer to the event(s) in question, and in eras where there still might well have existed original documents to prove or disprove ones opinion, that many dates have been presented for the "begining" have been considered! Each of these dates directly addresses the "birth of the Saviour!", however?

Do we all disregard Velikovsky, or Isaac Newton?

It is most obvious that each and every one of you has to rely upon "some one", or a "group of someones", who(m) presented some point(s), by which you place your faith, in both their words and their dates / datings! / Chronologies!

If there exists some date in what we call AD, times that you can rely upon to count backwards to the "birth of the Christ", then present it please? (I.E. can anyone prove a direct lineage between their famiy and Christ?, or Herod?, or Caesar?, or anyone else from that period?)

If so, is there also some date, that preceedes the birth of the Christ, that is so verifible? If so, then please present it?

Can it really be either way? Can any of us really be sure?

I would hope you could leave "faith" out of the responses?

It is by "faith" that I await!, in some repose!

Regards,

Ron
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2010 at 19:25
Still, no responses! Can none of you even consider the question? Is this apparent truism so disconnect all of you from even giving it some consideration?

In your hearts, and in good sense, you each can recognize that some "hub" date must have been discovered and used! Or maybe more than one "hub", with one "hub" connecting with the other, etc.?

Otherwise, dark ages, or other words that actually denote a "dark age" have to be considered to have little dating potential!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 09-Feb-2010 at 19:26
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2010 at 08:26
Since no one has ventured to make a claim or guess, I will venture forth!

What can be said about considering the "Paschal" or "Easter" date(s), as a "HUB" date!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal

You have numerous sites to explore above! Perhaps some of you will do so?

Please read this site? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korban_Pesach

And this one; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_of_God

And these; http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/250704   And;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter and;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Lilius

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2010 at 20:18
I am still awaiting some one who has an alternative view to my alternative view?

Hello?

Can anyone suggest a better date than the currently approved date of both Easter and Paschal?

Were the ancients, like Petavius, and Scaligier, or Julian or Gregory, etal, just spending their time on nothing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter

One must consider that going back that far, literally connects all of the so called "ancient" kingdoms of the Bible together! Bishop Ussher and others could not have made their figures public without some firm and secure date, could they?

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 11-Apr-2010 at 19:03
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2010 at 12:11
If anyone is interested, this site;http://nabataea.net/modernchron.html

Seems to point out certain dates of events
that are considered as "safe!" That is they
are dates with which chronologers and historians
have a great deal of confidence are basically
the correct dates, and can be used to connect
various empires, etc.!

Again, it seems that I cannot make a point and click hyper-link, so you must copy and paste this address!

http://nabataea.net/modernchron.html

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 25-May-2010 at 12:24
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2010 at 14:23
And yet, no takers? Does not the mere question I originally posited not make you want to know more?

You have to realize that actually based upon artifacts, etc., there existed no real method of connecting numerous empires, etc., without some reasonably assured date that all of them could be connected by?

Am I being vague or clear?
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  Quote DreamWeaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2010 at 18:52
Perception, its all about perception. Aslong as people understand and accept a dating system

then it works. It doesnt have to be right (helps though).

Besides History has moved away from dates, too stuffy, too obvious. Many are more concerned over how and why hsitory occurred in the manner it did. That Constantinople finally fell in 1453 is these days less important than as to why and how it fell, and subsequently what that means.


For good or ill thats the way things currently go.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2010 at 18:33
Then I feel sorry for those who go forever, where I tried to understand the dating?

Just why is "dating" now Passe'?

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2010 at 17:23
Maybe I should have asked "just why is dating of events now considered to be passé? See, I got the grave in the correct place! How can placing dates on events become "out of date?", which would be the meaning of passé!

But, confused I must be, since no one of our refined history specialists can present me with any simblance of a date in which they are secure, from our "Ancient Past!" Please note that I have little problem with dates since the age of mass printing via the press!

So, you might well state that the date that mass publication of events, books, etc., via the printing press, might well be a "secure date!"

But, just how would this date tend to reliably connect anything to events that preceeded it?

So, how about it?

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2010 at 20:58
I still remain surprised that no one has presented a "key" date, as I have mentioned above?

Just why is this simple question ignored by everyone? The logic concerning it seems very strong!
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 17:11
Again, it seems that no one wants to entertain even the question, why has no one even presented a date in the supposedly "far and distant past" whereby all dating of every other great and near great dynasties of of the past both in the Occident as wel as the Orient have been connected?

I know that there are some great historians on this site, or at least there used to be some, that might well want to take a great chance and make me look silly?

So, come on and make your stab at "history!", so far I seem to be the only one who could even consider the question!

Could it really be that none of you are really sure about our past history as it has been shoved down our gullets?

Certainly at least one of you feels confidant enough about our currently accepted view of ancient history to provide a "secure date" from which all other dating is connected?

Or do you think that all dating of the acttions of the Syrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks, Persians, Sythians, Hittites, Hurrians, Geats, Franks, Galatians, Romans, Armenians, etc., etc., are merely self sufficent to connect them to the rest of history?

Either you are cowards, or you are deficient in knowledge?   Or are all of you not really secure in your beliefs?

Sorry to be offensive, but months of seeing the lack of response makes me sort or mean!

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2010 at 15:11
18th of march,196b.c. coronation of Ptolemay the Fifth....Hmm...i am tranlating this...and it is more than sure that "impressions", of Chartage refugees stories,I can fell inside the story... Ptolemy's ancestor of trone is adolescent,5 years old...But we need astronomers here to tell us :"Did spring begin earlier 2206 years before?"Battle to Zana is 202b.c.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2010 at 11:35
Thanks for your post medenaywe! But, if you feel any of the above dates are secure, then you must state the reasons existing for the dates given?

Of course no ancient documents survive, only some stone inscriptions and second hand reports by later historians, because we know that the people living the the BC or BCE times, did not know they were before Christ!

I also doubt if retro-calculation can really provide you any security?

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2010 at 14:36
Ok main problem is:there is no official documents that will say :now it starts....But my respected one,on roseta we have exact time,first day of spring,or like they used to say,day of,Festival of Divine Fire(life)...And we know also that this one happens,this time,"about" six years  after battle at Zana...thats first "accepted" error...
   But we have to analyze Egyption calendar and his error per year.Than we need, per year error, after.Caesar change calendar...and error per year...Untill gregorian calendar was used....Than error per year also. here...But here we need astronomy sign like begining....comet...full exlipse...mayby...You need to dig your books...
         But what if we go backward...1054a.c. halley's comet was painted on picture...
     not bad for begining...And i am looking high resolution photo of Roseta stone...regards...
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2010 at 15:06
But, you see Medenaywe, even the entire Ptolemaic dynasty receives its dating from that of the Macedonian Dynasty, and the Macedonian from its relationship to Greece and Persia, and Greece and Persia receive a lot of their dates because of relationships with Egypt!

But even the dates of much of Egyptian history seem to be intertwined with thst of Roma, etc.!

It is a circle of connections! At least that is my opinion! All based upon supposition and the mis-dating of certain personalities and documents, etc.!
Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 10-Nov-2010 at 15:12
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2013 at 13:17
This question was last looked at in Nov of 2010. I thought that since there are a lot of new members, maybe some of might want to tackle this question?

Ron
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2013 at 14:45
I would suggest the lack of answers lies in the fact that everyone knows the Fomenko Follies are next.
 
 
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2013 at 16:04
No one yet knows the full true picture of history/chronology (even if the bible is true we still can't see the full picture yet) and no one yet knows for sure the "point zero" "1 anno mundi" date of the world (like Ussher's 4004 bc). (Even you don't seem to have provided/proven any key date/point/event?) There are plenty of sequences and synchronisms which provide the keys to ancient chronology (ones which the modern evolutionists don't consider). I believe the biblical is the one truest source and evidence continually found to support this. Don't be so set on written though because it seemingly may be that it was oral at first.

Most of late bc and (all) ad dating from late/neo Assyrian/Babylonian to living memory is fairly reliable (even if some exact dates might not be totally correct eg they don't know the date of battle of Badon, the birth of christ is not defintiely known but close enough (and we have possible candidate match for the star of bethlehem)) since we have "universal" synchronisms and records since then to now (25th dynasty = neoAssyrian, solon = 26th dynasty = neobabylonian = Josiah, etc). It is mainly just history before 26th dynasty that is not known/agreed. For that:

Some examples of synchronisms include Hezekiah sun goes back 10 steps ~ Nabonasar ~ Numa. Amarna texts.

Some examples of convergence points include Noachian global flood, ice age(s), Tower of Babel, rain of fire & brimstone, Joseph's world famine, Atlantis "sinking".

Some examples of sequences & synchronisms include: 4 rivers of Eden = 4 world ages which are found in many ancient nations traditions (4 ages Greece/Rome {gold silver bronze iron}, 4 suns Mexico, 4 yugas India, etc). Alternative 3 world ages (3 hermes {set shu taht}, 3 ages {stone bronze iron}, etc). There are other number ages traditions to like 7 ages/dispensations/"days", 12 ages (incld zodiacal).

We have sequences and kinglists and genealogical lists from many ancient cultures (biblical, egyptian, greek, sumerian, etc) which are somewhat reliable even if sometimes the exact order isn't always literal (eg some egyptian dynasties were contemporary).

They also provde us with dates like that of Naram-sin/Nabonidus if only they can be correctly decrypted.

Herodotus said Moeris (12th dynasty) was 900 years before [26th dynasty] which gives a date ca 1400s bc which agrees with Moses ca 1400s in bible and Atlantis 900 years before Amasis.
(It was said that most ancient history is or was based on ancient Egyptian?)

A few ancient cultures have a date of beginning of present world about 3000s bc (Indian, Mayan).

Modern orthodox dating methods/"clocks" are unreliable because they depend on that the rate/speed has always been uniformitarianly the same as at present (radiometric dating, speed of light, alluvium, precession, expansion of the universe, continental "drift", siriadic/sothaic, alignments, etc).

(I may not have the time/health to follow/reply as my situation/condition is hell but I am confident of my scenario and able to defend it even if i can't give a exact point zero date yet.)
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2013 at 16:09
According the name of Inquisition,lot of historical facts are not sure.Religion was changed in middle
age?!?Confused
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2013 at 18:08
Originally posted by red clay

I would suggest the lack of answers lies in the fact that everyone knows the Fomenko Follies are next.
 

 


A just what makes this question a "Fomenko" inspired one? I think anyone should really try to figure this one out, after all our chronology and histories are tied together in what has become a very tight web. Thus there has to be at least one "Anchor Date!"

Instead of funny posts, why don't you give it a try?

It is a very good intellectual question!

Regards, Ron





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