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Kurdish ancestry: what is true, and what isn't?

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  Quote Zert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kurdish ancestry: what is true, and what isn't?
    Posted: 17-Jan-2010 at 10:19
Hi all, I registered to this forum because I'd like to know the answer to the following questions:
from what peoples are the Kurds REALLY descended and in what degree?
I found this article, written by Mehrdad Izady, but I've heard some people say that it's full of exaggerations and lies.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/kurdish/htdocs/his/orig.html
Most people agree that they're the descendants of Medes, but what about the others?
Halafians, Ubaidains, Hurrians?

(I'm asking mainly because I'm just curious, but partly too because I need it for a school project)

Also off-topic question: was Ziryab a Kurd or an Iranian?
 
Thanks in advance.


Edited by Zert - 17-Jan-2010 at 10:35
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  Quote Messopotamian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2010 at 08:20
Kurds's ancestors is  " Medes,Hurrians,Mittanians" and of course " Carduchians " ( Kardux )
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  Quote balabanpasa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2010 at 13:44
kurds changed 45 ancestors in past 100 years.

Europans still cant find a good ancestor for them. They are still searching it politically.
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2010 at 16:15
Best way to find out is via MtDNA and I once saw somewhere that Kurds were similar to other Iranians like Lurs,Persians,Azari's.  I think the main gene pool of Kurds is Medes ancestory as the Culture and Language is Iranian dominated with little others.  
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  Quote kalhur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2010 at 14:25
i did a y dna  test with 20 marker and got haplogroup TShocked . the nicest part is that my tribe is very kurdish looking and having been isolated in mountain and haven't a lot of mix for a very long period of time. second when i made reaserch i found this haplo group in iran is rather rare but found only in high concentration among kurds and lors. the highest concentration in kermanshah and isfahan and shiraz.  i would appreciate any answr to the historical  origin of this group in iran and iraq.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2010 at 03:26
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_(mtDNA) : "Haplogroup T is thought to have originated in Mesopotamia and/or the Fertile Crescent (modern Syria and Turkey) approximately 10,000-12,000 years ago, and then moved northwest in to Europe and east as far as modern Pakistan and India."
 
Therefore it won't be strange if it is found in some Iranian people, especially Kurds who live in west of Iran, near Mesopotamia.
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  Quote kalhur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2010 at 04:56
hi cyrus
thanks for the  reply.
 no doubt it is original of iran. what i want to know is that kurd are most mix of  majority medes as our language shows and some other ancient civilisations, but which one that gave this haplogroup T. as far as i know sumerian and assyrians had mainly J as HG. i don't know if it was elamit or anshan or kassit which had T HG?it is interesting to know . is there any archological DNA sample from those pre-aryan groups?
regards
kalhur
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2010 at 12:21

I don't know what your sources are about the DNA of those ancient peoples, I think the ethnic ancestors of Kurds were first the Lullubi or Lulu, their name could be related to the name of Lurs, in the Sumerian language Lulu means "slave", maybe just because their slave workers were mostly from this region, in the Persian and probably Kurdish, Lulu means "bugbear", it is possible that they were one of the first enemies of Iranian-speaking people who entered the Iranian plateau, so they have been considered as a symbol of fear for Iranians!

The second ancestors were Gutians, I myself strongly believe that they were really related to Goths of Scandinavia, there are some evidences which prove they were a light-haired people, the next people were Kassites, in all probability they were either an Indo-Iranian people or under the strong influence of an Indo-Iranian culture, like the next ancestors who were Mitannians, however we know they were a Hurrian-speaking people.
 
About the linguistic ancestors of Kurds, they came in the early first millennium BC and were mainly Cimmerians, Medes and Scythians, I believe the most important language was the Scythian language, Herodotus says that Cyaxares, the greatest king of Media, had ordered the people to learn Scythian language, Diakonoff in "History of Media" says that it was impossible to make a union between different Median tribes without an intertribal language, and for several reason this language just could be Scythian.
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  Quote Zert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2010 at 13:04
Thanks for the responses thus far, I'm still following the thread.

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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2010 at 13:08
Well, you have to understand that today its impossible for any people to have one original ancestor. Kurds are an Iranic (Aryan) people, which means they are related to other Iranian peoples, but throughout time they have mixed with other peoples as well. Therefore, you cant really say "this person looks Kurdish" or "this person is an ancestor of the Medes" because Kurds do not look a certain way, they look like most others from the region, and Kurds mixed with many different peoples throughout time.

But in my opinion, Medes branched out into other groups, one of which probably led to the Kurdish ethnic group we know today.
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  Quote kalhur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2010 at 13:46
for the sure in our days no one is a pure decendent of some special old ethnic group and Y DNA haplogroup  only shows paternal line and can't be very relaiable to point out one or two ethnical group as origin of a nation or ethnic group, because we all have maternal DNA haplogroup too and kurd are not a homogen ethnical group neither as the rest of people in iran and the rest of middle east.
 today with the help of DNA technic it is maybe possible to track the ancestory back .
about looking kurd . yes there are some typical regional facial types. for exemple swedish are often blond with blue or green eyes and have some facial resemblane and majority of kurds in kermanshah province look in their own way. swedishs even they look much more uniform still share different happlo groups. 22-27% R1a1.(aryan)
nearly as much  hg  I(original european)
and 30 % R1b(celtic)
and som 
HG N.(asian finn ugric) dependig to north -south. higher in north and lower in south.
the idea of scandinavien origin is at least swedish lingustically very near persian and english indicating some deep relation. I am living in Sweden and i can finds loads of words with the same origin like
 Body parts

 

Persian                             swedish                                        english

Lab                                   läpp(lep)                                             lip

Bosse                                pussa                                              kiss

Abroo                                ogonbrun                                    eyebrow

Kale                                   skalle                                            skull

Dandan                               tand                                              dent

Chane                                  hache                                          chin

Naf                                      navel                                             belly button

 

Objects

 Dar                                     dor                                                  door

Hasar                                   hus                                                 house

Tagh                                    tak                                                    roof

Gaw                                     ko                                                     cow

Band (nakh)                      band(rep)                                                

Goraz                                gris                                                    porc boar

Ghaz                                  gås                                                    goose

 Nam                                 namn                                                 name

Mard(mand)                      man                                                    man 

Bradar                               bror                                                    brother

Dokhtar                             dotter                                                 daughter

Pedar                                 fader                                                   father

Madar                                moder                                                 mother

Astar (asb)                         häst                                                     horse

Stabl                                   stall                                                     stable

Famil                                  familj                                                  family

Rah                                      väg  (simmilar to way)                         road

Rast                                      rätt                                                     right

Mah                                      mån                                                   moon

Setare                                   stjärna                                                star

Div                                       djävul                                                devel

Behatr                                  bättre                                                 better

Tandar(raad)                       Dunder( åska  )                                  thunder

Pari                                      älv                                                     fairy

Robah                                 räv                                                      fox

Bordan                               bära                                                    bearing

Mess(metal)                     messing(copper alloy)                           copper

Ahan                                järn                                                       iron

Moosh                             mus                                                       mouse

Mian                               mellan                                                   between

Mor(morche)                  myra                                                      ant

Gerd(jerd)  (settelement)                             gård                                                       yard

 

 

 

 

 

                                               



Edited by kalhur - 25-Jan-2010 at 06:28
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2010 at 04:48
There are certainly some similar words between Persian and Swedish languages and also other Iranian and Germanic languages, please look at this thread: A Possible Iranian Migration from Scandinavia, some similar words are very important, for example about the word Rook (a chess piece), as you read here: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=rook&searchmode=none it has certainly a Persian origin, of course it says "of unknown meaning" but my Persian dictionary says that this word means "Stone Column" and the massive stone columns of Persepolis and other ancient Persian sites, could be the symbol of them.
 
What could be the original one? Maybe Rauk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rauk
 
A rauk (Swedish plural: raukar) is a stone column created by natural erosion. Rauks can be found mainly on the islands of Gotland and Fårö but also on Öland. Many rauks have been eroded into unusual shapes.
 
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  Quote kalhur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2010 at 06:16
there was an anthropolg from norway the late thor heyrdahl which beleived that some of old viking saga had pointed out azerbaijan  as origin land of vikings. he had done a lot of research about that.it is for the sure some conection to the old iran mainly to parths or sarmatians. i can add to the words above a load of others . there are so many word which are the same.
like
persian                                swedish
ostan                                   stad
bordj                                    borg
mainly the basic words like body parts and housing and animals both domestic and wild. the world is little  we are all parts of human race and surely share the same origin.



Edited by kalhur - 25-Jan-2010 at 06:22
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2010 at 08:54

They were the same poeple who worshipped Goda (Persian Khoda, English God), their leaders were Kianig (Persian Kian, English King) and their holiest festival was Yulta (Persian Yalda, English Yuletide), different from Indian Deva or Latin Deus worshippers, they were their Div/Devil, Indian Yama, the lord of death was Old Norse Ymir and Avestan Yima, the first being who was nourished by a cow, killed by Devil and finally his body became different parts of the earth.



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 25-Jan-2010 at 08:56
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2010 at 09:53
Back to the topic, if we want to consider all possible theories about the origin of Kurds, it can be said they were originaly a Celtic people, in fact "Kurd" could be just the Iranian form of "Kelt" ("l" to "r" and "t" to "d" are normal sound changes in the Iranian languages), as I mentioned in this thread Statue Menhirs, Prehistoric Western Europe, the original name of Celts was "Khaldi" or "Khalti", and almost the same people with the same name lived in the northwest of Iran and Asia Minor, like Galatians who were certainly a Celtic people, of course it is mostly believed that Armenians are the descendants of Khaldians!
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2010 at 10:20
Celts? Really, I highly doubt that. Kurds have their origins in Central Asia and the Near East, like other Iranian peoples. Throughout the centuries, Iranian peoples mixed with other ethnic groups, Iranic and non-Iranic, to form the Kurdish ethnic group, who were perhaps originally Medes.

I believe that Medes seperated into two groups, forming Kurds and Azari's, with Azari's being the main descendants, as evidence by the Ancient Azari language and Islamic and non-Islamic sources before their Turkification linguistically.


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 25-Jan-2010 at 10:21
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  Quote kalhur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2010 at 10:25
for the sure there are some strong conection only by studying the dances and even instruments . the sack-pipe still used in british islands and  is still around in khuzestan and some parts of lurestan and kurdestan too we can see the obvious simmilarity. i beleive the separation of celts and germans from old iranian people may occured at the time of first wave of indo-european migration to europe. the festival of yalda is called JUL(yul) in sweden and was one of highest fetivities in scandinavia before christianity. now it is celebrated as christmas , but still the name is same (jul) J is prononounced Y in swedish. the fest of nowroz has been known  as (vårdagsjämning)  here.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2010 at 17:11
I would certainly like someone who is proficient in language to also contribute another line or so, comparing the above list, to German (high and low), Dutch, Flemish, Freislander, Irish, and old / middle English, and Occitan, etc.?

Is that possible?

And a great example from the above list is;

Pari (or possibly Phari?), thus Fari! equals "Alv", or more correctly in English, "Elve", and thus "fairy/elve/elf!

Quite impossible unless all are related, and in my opinion, not seperated for hundreds or a thousand years or more, but more like 100 to 300 at the most! I think that any seperation of over 300 years would lead to more complicated relationships, if any at all! It is much like the word for "Fox", is in Persian "robah!", which most English speakers will instantly recognize as "robber!", which is just what a Fox is known to do! For he is "sly!", and "cunning", etc., which are a couple of other words that might be somewhat similar?

Edited by opuslola - 27-Jan-2010 at 17:26
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2010 at 00:19
It won't be wrong to find the original meaning of the Persian words by comparing with English and other Germanic words, "robah" can certainly mean "robber" in Persian, from the Persian verb "robudan" (to rob).
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  Quote ideas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2010 at 12:21
Well certenly kurds have many ancesters, for example its quite clear that kurds like iranians are aryan, these are some photos of typical kurds.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/44738189@N08/

Kurds are very similar to today iranians.. as I can speak kurdish, I can comftobly say that I can also speak half of the iranian language as it is very similar..

kurds are very ancient people, and thus its not clear on one family tree as kurds of today were not allways called kurds, we are infact a mixture of many tribes in the region that were relatives.. there are the kermanjis which are 100% of the medians as it has been proven to be very similar.. and the soranis along with 20-30 more tribes with diffrent luanguages who today all condiser themselfs kurds..

But don't be mistaken kurds are not turks or arabs.. turks moved to the region recently and we along with the iranians have been here longer..
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