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Are any of you willing to give "Fomenko" a chance?

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Are any of you willing to give "Fomenko" a chance?
    Posted: 12-Jan-2010 at 18:40
The subject says it all!

This adventure into alternative history has driven many people into panic or laughter!

Just what do any of you know about it?

Come on, don't be shy!

Regards,
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2010 at 19:41
Gee! I guess none of you are able to make any decision that has not already been made for you 400 years ago?

Most of you might be able to understand, that when "chronologies" were first implemented, there had to be a "zero" date? Some of you might well ask, "Just what the heck is a Zero date?"

For some of you, it may have just hit you right in the face? And, for others, you are scratching your heads thinking "just what kind of question is this dunderhead asking?"

Ok! Let's take it down a simple road! If I can keep it simple, then even the most simple of you might actually understand it? Just kidding!

But, it seems, that most of you will not ever get past this very sentence! That is too bad, because some introspection is needed at this very moment. You just have to have some type of "open mind", to consider this topic, or you will be totally lost.

So, I now offer anyone a chance to posit, and answer my question, about just what was the "Zero" date, by which every other date in our modern chronology was computed from?

Come on guys and gals, you must have considered that there had to be a "latch key" date? Old documents were not written as 450 BC, or 450 CE, etc., nor were they written as Before Christ, or After Christ! You just have to know that!! In fact, as most of you know, events are usually presented as "in the year five of the rule of king so and so", etc. Or something closely resembling that!

So, one must "already" know just when "king so and so" actually ruled before any other events can be connected from them to the present!

Most every ancient document, of which there are very few, are usually only in existance via reported "copies" which can be dated in a large percentage of cases, well after year one, after the birth or death of Jesus Christ! (actually in the 15th to the 17th centuies or so)

Or, if you deny that, then you will have to bring out another date that is more reliable than that of Jesus birth or death?

So, let's see? Do you start with the droping of the Atomic Bomb upon Japan? That is a very secure date! Or do you start at 1776 CE, and the American revolution? Or do you go further back and date the discovery of the New World by Colombo, in 1492? Or do you rely upon the invasion of England in 1066 CE?. etc.? Or do you rely upon the fall of the Western Roman Empire? Or do you rely upon the fall of Rome to the Goths? Or do you rely upon the fall of Constantinople to the Crusaders, or to the Goths, or to the Ottomans?, etc.

Just how far back in the past can you go to ascertain a certifiable "Zero" date? Can any of you verify either the birth date or death date of Jesus, or Muhammad, or Caesar, or Constantine, etc.?

Come on, all of these dates are available in any chronological table or history book!

But, before the invention of the printing press and the availability of multiple copies of most everything, you cannot positively point to any event or, in my opinon any "original" document or inscription!

If you think you can, then please post it, and your proof?

I will bet right now, that the most probable proof any of you can present, will have some connection to an event that took place in the sky / heavens!

Thus, it will be some celestial event, that will ultimately settle your claim! That is my opinion! Do you doubt my words?

If so, then post your proofs! Please?

Note, you must cite "the 'original source, or sources!" You are not allowed to cite the second hand word of others! Unless you actuall knew the people or that particular person and can testify as to his or their veracity!

After all, it is not usually allowed in a "court of law!" But, it seems that history is not confined by "Legal Standards?"

You see, one must be able to correlate the Western World, of Europe, with that of the Eastern World of Europe, and Asia, and Egypt, etc.! You must necessarily have a "Zero" point, from which you can date events either towards the future from that "Zero" or date events before that point?

Or is this not clear enough for you?

So, go ahead! Prove it! Prove it before a "Court of Law!" Beyond a reasonable doubt!

No heresay, allowed, no "quotations" from someone dead for a thousand years! No rumors, etc.! I could disallow a lot more, but I am somewhat Liberal kind of guy!

I shall await the coming barbs and arrows of indignation! But, I would rather have "facts!"

Not mere "suppositons" but real facts! You might well notice in your endeavors that the word "supposition", might well occur ofter?

Hey this is supposed to be the very site to posit such propositions, is it not?

This very place is called "Historical Amusement!"

So, amuse me? Or not?

Heck, amusement is usually consider "fun", is it not?

Regards,
(note I have modified and corrected some spelling mistakes in the above)

Edited by opuslola - 29-Jan-2010 at 15:07
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  Quote ConradWeiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2010 at 21:43
I found this post interesting, but I ran over it pretty fast, and I'm not sure I absorbed all of it yet. However, since there as of yet have been no replies, I feel I should do such a topic justice as to at least respond.

So, your question is what is the zero date history is measured by?

Well, I mean, that's an man made point, so its subjective. In the western world, we have no 0 AD or 0 BC. There's only 1 BC and 1 AD (Or should I say, BCE and CE?) So there's nothing really inbetween. But if we're talking about events, in the western calendar, that is supposed to be the year of Jesus' birth. Or perhaps the moment?

I'm not too familar with the calendar system back then. How close were they to an accurate year? What were the months? When was the year split? Best guess interested historians have is that Jesus was born in the spring... So... thinking about the Romans as having a similar calendar to us... What were the first few months of the year Jesus was born, before the actual date that he was born? Was it January, Febuary, March 1 BC and April, May, June, ..., AD 1? Or -1 BC to AD 1?

And, similarly, Islam bases its calendar around Mohammed's expulsion from Mecca? I can't quite remember. But again, it falls under similar problems as above.

Dealing with this question, I know anthropologist use an alternative system of dating, were they date things from a set date, which I think is 1975 (or somewhere near it). hence, the beginning of WWII was, by this dating strategy, is 36 years before present. Weird. Anyway, I think this is only used for really older dates anyway.

I can't give you proof of a certain date being the "zero date".

But, I must say, as both a historian-in-training and a atheist, I think the religious based "zero date" must be done away with, and that a universal, secular "zero date" should be established. If one at all.

I'll think on this one. Good thread, btw.



EDIT: Please forgive the rambling. I'm not lecturing or anything. Just thinking aloud. LOL


Edited by ConradWeiser - 28-Jan-2010 at 21:44
Another year! Another deadly blow!
Another mighty empire overthrown!
And we are left, or shall be left, alone.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2010 at 03:54
Thanks for the response Conrad!

Yeah, my question is a loaded one! And, it is even hard to explain to others. It seems I am unable to adequately place the point of the post to paper / ether?

But, you are it seems correct when you get to the religious question. The Fomenko Group (and I am not a spokesman for it, by the way) seems to be the only place where I have actually seen the question discussed.

But, it is I consider, and as you do also agree, a reasonable question to both ask and to consider. The FG (as I shall shorten the words Fomenko Group) seems to have examined just how histories, as disparate as the Greek world, the Egyptians, the Indians, Persians, Sythican, Chinese, etc., could have had their histories meshed together so long ago. And, as best I could ascertain from reading their material(s) it seems that the Paschal or Easter dating might well have been the "hub" date or "zero" date as mentioned in my post above?

Some research into the dating of the Easter of Christ, and Passover, etc., may give you more background material to make a judgement. Also thrown into the mix are the words of Josephus and Manetho! You have to consider that "dark ages", in one form or another seem to exist in the chronologies / histories of most all of the great empires/ nation states of the past. The exact lenght of these voids, has been the subject of discussion by hundreds of historians and archaeologists for centuries. If you have any background concerning the so called "Dark Age of Greece", then you may understand why I mention this? And, at the forepoint of this period, which for many years was considered to be extremely "dark" there lies / lays? the mystery of Troy and the dating of both the famous war, and the dating of Homer the Blind Bard and the creation of his epics! These connected events seem to have also placed some impediments into the creation of a interconnected chronology.

The FG also places a good deal of effort to place before the reader what they consider major problems with the creation of these "epic poems" and their eventual placement onto paper or at least, into a written version that has made its way to the present. They mention that the Iliad, actually contains some 700 pages of material, even written in a font similar to what we are reading now!

Their major question is; just how one person commit to memory such a vast amount of material? Just how could he present this epic poem to others? The recital of such an epic would have to last for days and days! Who would sit and listen for such a length of time? The FG also considers that it seems Homer himself died before any of his opus was ever consigned to a written form. It is believed by most historians that a number of other bards continued reciting this epic for many years after the death of Homer until it was finally ordered that it be written. And, even if you follow that story to its conclusion, you are again left with the disappearence of the written version for a few more centuries, as Europe was plunged into their own "Dark Age!"

Its "rediscovery" is a good story in itself!

I could waste your time by writing more, but the only way you can understand the point being made by the FG, is to read their material for yourself.

Again, my regards,

P.S., as you can see, this subject is confined to a specific section of this Forum, I.e., under "Historical amusement" since most readers are expected to completely over look any works of the FG, as "pure trash"! Something not considered worthy of any decent person interested in the past! If you are not familar with the FG, I would suggest that you make some search on the "net" for the opinion of the "experts" concerning the propositions presented by the FG?

But, irregardless, you have seen or have recognized that the question of a "hub" or "zero" date does seem to have some attraction!

Edited by opuslola - 29-Jan-2010 at 04:01
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2010 at 15:03
Dear Conrad, (may I call you Bud? )

I would also suggest that the famous or infamous "Sothic" period, also has made its way into our chronology! The work of Imanual Velikovsky, who has been maligned by our current rulers of the past, is also a source of some good material concerning the development of a "hub" or "zero" date!

Velikovsky like Sir Isaac Newton, also reduced Egyptian history by hundreds of years! But, you must know that the reveered Newton was also ridicluded for his words! When he also reduced Egyptian and Greecian history by the hundreds of years! Newton was called basically an "addled old man" past his prime and expertise, by the purveyors of our current scheme!

Regards,


Edited by opuslola - 29-Jan-2010 at 15:04
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2010 at 12:31
For those of you who might be interested in this "Zero" or "Hub" years question, I would you first examine this site;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_Bible

Whereby you will see;

"It is unclear from what point this chronology can be taken to correspond to historical events. Some scholars have traditionally attempted to identify a date of the Exodus, suggesting historicity at least from the time of Moses, while mainstream biblical scholarship is more reserved about the historicity of any events predating the scope of the Books of Kings, beginning in the 10th century BCE. This leaves a space of several centuries, between the Exodus and the establishment of the United Monarchy, largely corresponding to the period of the Bronze Age collapse in the region, and depending on the author including parts of the Late Bronze Age, of dubious historical, or proto-historical, status."

So, most experts might tell you that anything from the Bible cannot be used to connect "real" historical events! The "Old Testament" in particular might well be considered as "of dubious historical, or proto-historical, status!"

The Wiki site goes on to write in the "Jewish computation" section;

"Despite the computations by Yose ben Halafta, confusion persisted for a long time as to how the calculations should be applied.[4] In 1000, for example, the Muslim chronologist al-Biruni noted that three different epochs were used by various Jewish communities being one, two, or three years later than the modern epoch.[5] The epoch seems to have been settled by 1178, when Maimonides, in his work Mishneh Torah, described all of the modern rules of the Hebrew calendar, including the modern epochal year. His work has been accepted by Jews as definitive, though it does not correspond to the scientific calculations. For example, the Jewish year for the destruction of the First Temple has traditionally been given as 3338 AM or 421 BCE. This differs from the modern scientific year, which is usually expressed using the Gregorian calendar as 587 BCE. The scientific date takes into account evidence from the ancient Babylonian calendar and its astronomical observations. In this and related cases, a difference between the traditional Jewish year and a scientific date in a Gregorian year results from a disagreement about when the event happened — and not simply a difference between the Jewish and Gregorian calendars. (See the "Missing Years" in the Jewish Calendar.)"

You might well notice that; "In 1000, for example, the Muslim chronologist al-Biruni noted that three different epochs were used by various Jewish communities being one, two, or three years later than the modern epoch.[5]"

The key words above, at least for me, is that "al-Biruni" accidently? made this computation or at least mentioned it in "1000 CE!" And, the "year 1,000", seems to be the key words! And, I might well presume, that if the people of that time actully used these dates, then the Christians among the population, and especially amongs the leaders of the various Christian churches, might well have had some prior interest in this year, since it would have been the "millenium", a long awaited expectation of the return of Christ to this world! And, as such, we might well expect that there was some consternation (amongst both the clergy and the laity) when the approaching date came near?

But, just why did "the Muslim chronologist al-Biruni" concern himself with such a study? Was he interested in belittling the fact that the "Second Coming", or the "End of times" did not happen? Or was there some other reason? Perhaps one might want to read about "al-Biruni", and see what can be found? One site is; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Biruni You might notice that he was both an astromomer and a theologian!

You might well want to note that in the "Natural philosophy" section, these words;

"Biruni and Avicenna (Ibn Sina), who are regarded as two of the greatest polymaths in Persian history, were both colleagues and knew each other since the turn of the millennium. Biruni later engaged in a written debate with Avicenna, with Biruni criticizing the Peripatetic school for its adherence to Aristotelian physics and natural philosophy, while Avicenna and his student Ahmad ibn 'Ali al-Ma'sumi respond to Biruni's criticisms in writing.[58]" And, from the above maybe the key words are "were both colleagues and knew each other since the turn of the millennium." Again, we see the mention of "the turn of the millennium!" Did these other great scientists combine their resources as the millennium approached? Was there a connection because of this event and nothing else?

And further is the biography of this great man we read;

"History
By the age of 27, in the year 1000, he had written a book called Chronology which referred to other works he had completed (now lost) that included one book about the astrolabe, one about the decimal system, four about astrology, and two about history."

So, we also know that he was also a "chronologist!", and there is also every reason to believe this book was completed about the year 1,000!


Did, such "end of the world, and second coming" events or concern, about the millennium, actually occur?

See next post for more!
Regards,


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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2010 at 12:39
As a preface to this post, since I later will modify it, I will merely suggest that you read this site;

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/Glaber-1000.html


Edited by opuslola - 01-Feb-2010 at 12:41
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2010 at 11:47
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/280/5372/2091

http://srs.dl.ac.uk/arch/what-the-papers-say/Demortier/DELO-article-translation.htm

The above sites might make some persons re-consider the theory that the pyramids (and other ancient structures) were built out of hewn stone!

Edited by opuslola - 01-Mar-2010 at 11:55
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2010 at 14:27
Originally posted by opuslola

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/280/5372/2091

http://srs.dl.ac.uk/arch/what-the-papers-say/Demortier/DELO-article-translation.htm

The above sites might make some persons re-consider the theory that the pyramids (and other ancient structures) were built out of hewn stone!
 
 
None of this is new.  There are several groups of scientists who are examining stonework from several continents.  It's a pretty sure thing that the Romans weren't the first to use concrete.
 
On topic, Give Fomenko a chance? Why?  Someone makes the statement- No document or written history exists before the 11 th cent. I should take him seriously because........He's unemployed, a nice guy and his mother loves him?
 
 
 
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2010 at 16:04
Because Red Clay, you are merely taking the path of least resistance! Fomenko cannot be understood by taking the opinion of others as "dogma!"

I merely suggest that one actually reads something before dismissing it! And, just why would anyone actually expect any employed historian to take the time to read the Fomenko works, or to show anykind of support for his theories? It would be suicide, which was what I. Newton relalized when his "chronology" was published without his consent! He was suddenly considered as "demented", or suffering from dementia, etc.!
And, yes I am mostly secure in saying that "his mother loved him!" chuckle!
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  Quote warwolf1969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 05:45
The problem is that the FG seem to ignore science, like carbon dating.  Which can tell us when different things were first made.  The closer to modern day an item is the smaller the variance range is.  So we can date items made by the Greeks/Romans etc to within a few hundred years.  Letting us know that the dates given for their empires etc are reasonably correct.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2010 at 13:57
It is not that they "ignore" these fields, it is because the FG, and persons like me, do not feel that 14_C and dendro-c, are real sciences!

Rather I consider them more like Deleted

And some archaeologists can be considered as Deleted.
Arguments against both of them exist all over the internet!
 
 
 
Edit- Red Clay. 


Edited by red clay - 17-Jul-2010 at 13:10
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  Quote warwolf1969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2010 at 09:39
What arguements, I don't know of any sensible arguements against carbon dating anywhere.  It is accepted by every archeologist as being a scientific fact.  Any who don't must be considered trouble makers.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2010 at 13:03
Originally posted by opuslola

It is not that they "ignore" these fields, it is because the FG, and persons like me, do not feel that 14_C and dendro-c, are real sciences!

Rather I consider them more like "whores?"

And some archaeologists can be considered as "pimps!"

Arguments against both of them exist all over the internet!
 
 
 
Most of those arguments put forth by the good folks who believe the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Wacko
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2010 at 13:19
By the way red, I do not follow the 6,000 year theory, not a all!

Now give me a really good 6,000,000 year theory and I might listen?

You must understand, that I do not really doubt that ancient kingdoms existed, it is our history that is created from the bits and pieces of the past, that were first merely tossed about by trophy hunters, and then later based upon materials that came from preportedly "ancient sources!"

red, you wrote this;

"If I had felt there was any legitimacy to his work I would have read it through. After a few chapters I brought my math expert in on it. Red senior was a Physicist and theoretical mathematician for 51 years. He did not read the book. He instead looked at what the man's main profession was, statistician. He then proceeded to dissect the mans equations. It only took him approx. 20 minutes to find major mistakes and another 20 minutes before he started laughing."

Well I would hope your "expert" has the audacity to write numbers of books in the field, that are respected by most of the world's mathematicians, and then laugh at himself! Ha, ha!

Please compare your "expert's" resume' against that of Fomenko, et. al.?

Just what is his/her name and where are his/her noted papers, etc.?

You have created a phantom expert to deride a "real expert!", and you should really be ashamed!

But, perhaps you merely have something against Russians in general? They are not particularly known for their "great tomatos!"

And, I also am ashamed you would take the time to "trash" me personally!

NO SOUP FOR YOU!

PS, Do not argue with a stupid!

BTW, "coinage" can certainly support the Fomenko theory, perhaps you should read all of a subject before deriding it? Quick, pull your book written by Fomenko, etal, out of the fire place!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by opuslola - 17-Jul-2010 at 13:53
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2010 at 14:02
Just what master of juris prudence replaced the words "Whores" and "Pimps" from my original post? And inserted the word "Deleted?"

Is not the Bible full of such words?

Are we running a site for third graders?

Give me a break!

Yes, I am a little mad!

Oh yes! I noted that it was our little tomato grower who did so!

Sorry those two words were so disagreeable to your virgin ears! Or will you also change "virgin" to "deleted?"

Get a grip redclay?

Sunday school is over!

But, I do forgive you!

Oh! I also noticed that you failed to delete these two "bad" words from your reply whereby you actually "quoted" my bad words! Shame, shame on you Sgt. Red! From of course, "Gomer Pyle, USMC!"

Regards, somewhat!

Edited by opuslola - 17-Jul-2010 at 18:07
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2010 at 18:23
By the way redclay, if you had just read 60% of the Old and New Testament Bible, would you have read the "beatitudes?", or about the death and reserection of Jesus?

You must remember that Fomenko has published in Russian at least, seven volumes, and you claim to have read 60% of Vol.1?

Gee, I'd bet you really know it all after reading so much?

Get somewhat more informed before spouting off! Please!
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2010 at 07:12
Considering only one of his epic tomes has been translated, I didn't do to badly.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2010 at 10:47
Actually I now think that at least four of them have been published in English! I actually have Vols. I and II!

I am especially interested in Vols. V and VI!

Edited by opuslola - 20-Jul-2010 at 03:49
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 13:11
For any of you willing to explore, perhaps you will take some time to peruse this on-line book, concerning the famous "Blair's Chronological Tables-revised and enlarged!"

http://books.google.com/books?id=WCIZAAAAYAAJ&dq=the+chronology+of+Blair&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=l0Ege-cPDf&sig=uzrUAagZqLZBkex3Cxv9VJUNsZY&hl=en&ei=yNWSSrXfMIjUMoe8rZIK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

You must note that this work was considered one of the wonders of historical research at one time!

Regards,
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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