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What does Greek sound like to a non speak

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What does Greek sound like to a non speak
    Posted: 26-May-2005 at 11:08

Thanks for the update Oquzoglu. It's now clear to me how come and we have so many Central-Asian dishes in Greek cuisine. As you mention, stuffed vineleaves are a prime example of Altaic cooking.

About the music, what can I say? It seems that you never wondered why traditional Ottoman music is so close to Greek Orthodox psalm or why the system used to write it is still the Byzantine one...

In any case, the truth is that many civilization co-existed in this part of the world and left traces on one another.

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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  Quote BirTane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2005 at 11:34

The bouzouki is an instrumental variation of the saz (kopuz), a member of the lute family brought by the Turks to the Balkan and Greek countries

I will dissapoint you here...buzuki of course has turkish name...no doubt about it but the mother of buzuki as also of saz and many other similar instruments is the ancient "Pandora" , of greek origin

 

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  Quote BirTane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2005 at 11:51

But you should worry about what your language really is, because you speak a derived version of Ancient Iranic language with a huge Turkish and Italian vocabulary in it. At least we dont speak other nations' languages, but our own.

This is your language not ours. A huge part of Turkish language is Persian, something that can be seen by counting the words without phonetic armony.  And many of the words that we have from Turkish is not actually all from Turkish but from Arabs, loans that both Turks and Greeks took from them.

 

Face it please, you speak your version of Indo European languages (Persian origin), but we speak our own language of Altaic languages, Turkic origin, with a little Arabic and Persian vocabulary support. And even  most of those Arabic and Persian words were derived by Turks in their grammer during Ottoman time...

many of arabic words are loan from greek language....as tefter, kalem, kafa, and many others.

In the post Turkish independence period, with the studies of Ataturk and Turkish Language Institution, the Turkish language reform took place and lots of new Turkish words were derived from the old Turkic roots. If you look at the structure of altaic languages, they are the easiest languages to derive new words. They are very systematical, and regular.

Thats true...

The Ottoman language was very like our current Turkish, but the language of the government and the palace was way different from the language spoken all over the empire. The language of the palace was mainly influenced with Arabic and Persian, but definately not Greek.

Partly true...but the current Turks difficult to understand the old Turkish...because had more influences from Arabs.

Altough, after the hundreds of years of Turkish rule over them, Greeks and their language was way different than the original. Greek language was heavily influenced with especially Turkish and Italian. And the enormous Turkish influence, both cultural and linguistically on Europe cannot be denied after those hundreds of years of Turkish authority.

Yes we had great influence..is normal...but you had also. ...But 20 years now this changed...we use only few words in our daily life wich derives from Turkish...we know thw words but we replaced them from ours...like cakmak...now we say anaptiras.

Modern Greek appears in verse from the 12th century and was creatively adapted in Cretan Renaissance literature. The question of a national language did not arise, however, until the 19th century with the emergence of the newly independent Greek state. Katharevousa ("purifying" Greek), an artificial compromise between the archaizing and the spoken forms, was imposed as the official language from 1834 until 1976. After 1976, demotike, the language used in speech and creative literature, became the officially taught language. Katharevousa is now used in official documents. The division between them has its roots in the first centuries of the present era and presents a series of ever-changing oppositions that affect both speech and writing. The four major dialect groups--Peloponnesian, Northern Greek, Cretan, and Dodecanesian-Cypriot--all derive from the Hellenistic koine.

It is not like that. Anyone can read all these types of Greeks, and to understand it very well, except some words which do not support anymore in daily life.

The principal changes that distinguish modern Greek are superseding of pitch-accent by stress; further iotacism of vowels; transforming the voiced plosives b and d to the voiced fricatives v and dh; loss of modal particles; and less variable word order because of replacement of pitch-accent by stress. Morphological groups that were originally distinct have become unified, with a consequent reduction in the number of inflections. Its vocabulary remains basically Greek, with many Latin loanwords and later borrowings, but mainly from Turkish and Italian.

Ah zamanim yok! I will answer you in time..I m trying also to find in English article...Turks and Greeks published a lexikon with the Turkish words in Greek language and the opposite and i will dissapointed also here, you have more Greeks in yours than we have Turkish in ours. But they are not so many ...neither for us neither for you, as much as I remember range between 1700-2200 words. Not so many for making us fighting )))))).

kendine iyi bak...

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2005 at 13:18

Hi BirTane, nice to meet you here..

I see that you speak Turkish, and your username is turkish too. I am curious, where do you live, and where/how did you learn Turkish?

Sen de kendine iyi bak, zaman bulduka yaz...

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2005 at 08:10
Oguz,

You're obviously delirious????
You speak of some invisible ancient Iranian influence on the Hellinic language because we're part of the IE language family????
That's at least stupid.
Had you done some research instead of copy pasting the first site you found. You would have known that the exact origin of the IE is still strongly debated and argued about, with one of the major 'candidates' being Hellas and the Balkan region.

Turkish influence???
You don't have to be a nuclear scientist to understand that the Ottoman rule left it's mark on the Hellinic language, since schools were shut down, it's pure logic.
We do have many records of the 'krufo sxoleio' letarally means 'hidden school', were the priests took care of teaching the forbiden language, in risk of their very life.
We know of many that were impalmed for doing this.
What you don't want to understand is the fact that there is a large number of words and expressions, who's origin can be discussed, debated, analyzed and probably might turn into some very interesting conclusions, similar to the 'kalam' example given before. You might understand it better when you look at the place name 'Izmir' that is nothing more than a corrupt form of 'Smyrni'.

As for the site you copied, the author obviously has slight to no knowledge of the Hellinic language. True there are some differences in kathareuousa, demotiki and 'modern' but these forms aren't as different as he presents.
Actually the language hasn't changed that much from it's original form,it has allegedly been simplified but any speaker can understand all forms of the language with ancient being a bit tricky.
The very fact that 'iotakizm' is mentioned, proves that the author is one of those foreign school/university speakers that support the Erasmic pronounciation of ancient Hellinic.
You see it's much easier for any foreign student to pronounce Hellinic diphthongs in the Erasmic manner. But that doesn't mean it's correct.
We know in fact, that even Erasmus, who strongly promoted this teaching method didn't use it himself on his students.

To continue with this joke related to the Sun God Theory where everything is Turkish in origin.
The Bouzouki may be a Turkish 'term/word' but the instrument itself and all of the following stringed instrument can locate their origin in Hellas. I suggest you just look up exactly who introduced stringed instruments and then you'll see that even the very name guitar is BINGO!!! Hellinic, from the ancient 'kitharis' as seen in both Iliad and Odyssey.

ouzo.
LOL, I mean please!!!!! you are trying to say that the people who introduced wine, the masters of party, see 'symposia', the same people that worshipped Dionyssos, needed to wait some 2300yrs for the Turks to arrive, in order to learn the process of making any kind of alcoholic beverage???

Mezedes.
It has the exact same meaning here, that of appetizer or hors doeuvre. There are many linguists that suggest its origin to be the ancient Hellinic 'mezea', all easter lamb eaters, must know that the best 'mezes' are the 'ameletita' (balls) which is the meaning of 'mezea'.

Dolmadakia
I do remember Yiannis clearing this for you in some other topic.

I did the very simple task of looking in an online dictionary, here are just some of the Hellinic words I just picked out without really getting into it. I'm sure that a more extensive search will provide alot more.

abanoz        balada        
abis        bacter        
acele        balat        
aerodrom        balena        
af        balgam        
aforoz        balos
aglama        banyo
ahrem        bar
akaya        baraet
akca        baristaryon
akrostis        basi
aksiyon        basil
ambrion        bastoun
amidon        baski
anadoln        batrik
analjeji        bati
antipod        baz
apotem        belesam
armoz        biber
aort        bocergat
ankilos        bora

You see, finding Turkish words in the Hellinic language is no suprize, simply because we could say that they were enforced on us, since the Ottomans closed down all schools. What is interesting, is the fact that you've adopted words from Hellinic and claim them as your own.

To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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  Quote Pete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2005 at 14:32
Geia sas / Merhabalar,

Please do not turn the discussion into nationalistic
insults - we all good, and both Greek and Turkish
are very beautiful languages. I mean that.
Who your ancestors were does not make YOU better
or worse; and the fact that some people in history of
your nationality did something good or bad says
NOTHING about you personally
Also, ALL languages, including Ancient Greek, have
foreign words - it is not shameful, it is natural.

I have enjoyed reading the discussion and I would
like to make a few points...

Turkish has many Arabic & Persian words, and a
few Greek ones - but there has been a language
reform in Turkey that has got rid of very many.
Greek did the same: it had a huge number of
Turkish words, still has many, but less than before.
Many were replaced by new Greek words.

Both Greek and Turkish (like most other languages)
have been artificially altered a bit, with some foreign
words being removed, others invented, others being
given a false etymology to hide the fact that they were
foreign words. (by the way, the Sun theory is indeed
crazy, but nobody in Turkey supports it anymore).
The issue is made more complicated by the fact that
some words that Greek took from Turkish, Turkish
had taken them from Arabic (e.g. canta=bag,
hayvan=animal [only slang in Greek]); other words
went back and forth (e.g. Greek karpos > Turkish
karpuz > Greek karpuzi). Other words are from other
languages but both Greek and Turkish adopted
them.

By the way, very many of the "Greek" words used in
European languages are not native "Greek": they
were invented by European scholars who created
them using Ancient Greek roots. E.g. words like
telephone were first invented in western Europe
(French, English, German), then reproduced in
Greek and adopted in Turkish too.

Many words are also translated, so they look native
but are shaped imitating a foreign word. E.g. both
Greek and Turkish (and French, Italian, Spanish,
Hungarian, Russian, Finnish, etc. etc.) translated
"iron-road" to create their word for "railway"
(sidirodromos, demiryolu).

Ancient Greek was NOT pronounced like Modern
Greek - the modern pronunciation is of course the
only right one for the Greek of today, but not for
Classical Greek. The Erasmian pronunciation is not
perfect but it is a good approximation (we cannot
know exactly how Greek was pronounced then, but
we know it fairly well).

Dolma(s), meze(s), cacik/tsatsiki, gve/youvetsi,
etc. are all Turkish words.

Now, about swearwords (do not read if you are
easily shocked). Malaka is not Turkish - it is just
Greek. Yes, it means "wanker" - it was born as an
insult (one man accusing another of doing it, as if he
did not do it too...), but it is also used in a friendly,
jokey way.
Many slang/rude word in Greek come from Turkish:
pust(is), bines/ibne, etc. But many words BECAME
rude in Greek and were not so in Turkish (e.g.
Turkish davaci "plaintiff" > Greek ntavatzis "pimp").
Asihtir is not from Greek, although it is used in Greek
too. It is from ah, siktir, with is the imperative (the
command form) of the causative form (siktirmek) of
the verb sikmek, which mean f***.It literally means
"ah, get (someone) to f*** (you)" - the bits in
parenthesis are understood in the context.

Finally (for now), Greek sound similar to Spanish:
they have the same vowel system, and the fricatives
like <th> <dh>, which few language have. Turkish
sound different also because it has many more
vowels, incl. rounded vowels , , etc. Neither Greek
nor Turkish have the "throaty" sounds of Arabic,
Israeli Hebrew, or Dutch.

Hairetismous / selamlar,

Pete
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2005 at 16:48

Phallanx,

Yes Phallanx, Ottomans adopted Greeks their language by force, and closed all Greek elementary schools because they were child hater imperialists. Greeks were enforced to eat Turkish food, listen Turkish music and adopt Turkish words. The Ottomans even invented slanted eye machines to change Greeks into Turanoids...

And we have a Sun God Theory (not Sun Language, please dont misunderstand it) and we believe Greeks immigrated to current Greek lands from Altay region, Eastern Kazakhstan. And Ottomans massacred millions of Greeks because they hated poor innocent Greek citizens of their empire.

And please, can you give me the web adress of that online dictionary? I am very curious...



Edited by Oguzoglu
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 00:02
Yes Phallanx, Ottomans adopted Greeks their language by force,

I admit that I have had more than a couple of drinks tonight but, sorry, this doesn't make sense.

So now you deny the fact that the "krufo sxoleio" (secret school) did exist??? That is low, my friend (the least I can say without being banned)

I would like you to present any genetic study that claims that the 'modern' Hellines are even 5% Turanoid, that claim is at least stupid.

Illeterate little wanna-be Mongol, please don't waist my time on giving answers to what you're too ignorant to comprehend.

THE SUN GOD THEORY, claims that everything, Anthropologic and Linguistic derive from Turkish roots. If you don't know the first thing about the theory, please don't blame me, it's clearly your fault due to your ignorance.

As for the alleged immigration your beloved kemal taught you, please do support your stupid allegations or shut the f**k up.

Address???
Mine? 100, Volos, Hellas.
As for the linguist, open your damn dictionary, as if you don't know these words to be Hellinic.
(I just wish the site had more smilies to chose from, I've seen malaka, and play your violin in other fora) too bad these would suit you.


Edited by Phallanx
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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  Quote Pete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 05:13
I do not know whether this comment was
addressed to me:

QUOTE
As for the linguist, open your damn dictionary, as if
you don't know these words to be Hellinic.
(I just wish the site had more smilies to chose from,
I've seen malaka, and play your violin in other fora)
too bad these would suit you.

I am afraid this does not mean anything in English
(nor much more in Greek, if I translate it in my head).
What was it supposed to mean? And what are so
angry about?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 05:20

So now you deny the fact that the "krufo sxoleio" (secret school) did exist??? That is low, my friend (the least I can say without being banned)

Please Phallanx, say what you wanna say, I am open to your bannable insults. You should vomit your hatred freely, and get rid of your historical paranoias.


Illeterate little wanna-be Mongol, please don't waist my time on giving answers to what you're too ignorant to comprehend.

 THE SUN GOD THEORY, claims that everything, Anthropologic and Linguistic derive from Turkish roots. If you don't know the first thing about the theory, please don't blame me, it's clearly your fault due to your ignorance.

Me, wanna be Mongol? Why should I want to? I am a Turk, and I know we are closer to Mongols, our cousins, than we are closer to Slavic mix Greeks. This is the fact and noone can deny it. In fact, you are a wanna be Greek who is half Slavic and half Turkish. What you inherited from your ancient Greek ancestors is only their names, even not their language. We are Turanoids, and we are not Greeks, so as you arent. Kapish??

Me, illiterate? You, the kid who cannot even realize the theory is called "The Sun Language Theory", not the "Ancient Egyptian Sun God Theory" after thousands of posts about it, are blaming me with being illiterate. Grow up little hateful boy. You possibly have a thick skull that doesnt let information pass easily to your brain...

You, a Greek, come here and try to teach me a past theory of ours. Ok boy, please, be my Turkish teacher. Firstly, I wanna learn some Turkish grammer. Teach it please...

And you have proved me once you being illiterate. I asked the web adrees of that site, not your home's adrees, so dont worry, I dont want to be your guest, I just want to visit that web page and read what your claims are, and then judge their trulyness.


 

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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 05:22
Greek sounds like if there's a cat down your throat hissing and o'sising all the time, I like it.. but in a more suttle way..
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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 07:27
How come and this thread has turned into another greco-turko-whateverelse conflict again???
Moderators, please....
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  Quote Pete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 08:18
Aman aman (as they say on both sides of the
border)...

All nationalities are an invention, and all nations are
the product of the mixing of very many different ethnic
groups - so are the Turks, the Modern Greeks, the
Ancient Greeks... where is the problem?

And (as I said before) - why should somebody's
status or self-esteem depend on his/her remote
ancestors - whom (s)he has never met, and cannot
be certain about?

It is a weakness to be fervent nationalists - to cling to
the strange assumption that if my ancestors in the
past, or my fellow-citizens now, have done good
things, people's admiration for them should be
extended to me too.

Final point... we should all remember that our
sources of information are primarily (and often
exclusively) the propaganda of our country, that tells
us what it wants in the way it wants it, claiming that it
is all true and that there is nothing else we need to
know - and even teaching us to feel sorry for people
in the other countries, because they have no access
to the pure truth like we do.

As Socrates pointed out, the highest knowledge and
wisdom is to be always aware that we know
practically nothing...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 10:18

Originally posted by Menippos

How come and this thread has turned into another greco-turko-whateverelse conflict again???
Moderators, please....

I think so Menippos. This is a rediculous thing to change regular topics into national and personal wars, but please, read the posts above, and objectively, tell me who started this by changing the discussion into an attacking base?

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 16:29
Just one of many sites that do present it as I do, a simple search will provide many more.

"n Turkey there was an attempt to cleanse that language of Arab- Persian words. When that plan was found to be difficult Kemal Ataturk gave the Sun-God theory and explained that the Turkish language like the sun was the fountainhead of all languages and the borrowed foreign words were Turkish in origin."
http://www.thedailystar.net/suppliments/ekush04/

I know what address you asked for, it was pure humor you obviously can't comprehend. Which is exactly why I suggested you buy a dictionary.

You were just begging to be insulted. You continuously support some twisted idea that the Ottoman empire was
allegedly some Christian paradise, dispite the very fact that every single historian disagrees with this stupid idea.
You continuously mock and dicredit the FACT of innocent deaths of Hellines, Cypriots Armenians, Assyrians. That as I said, is low, that is a fine example of your ignorance.
So before you call this guy a "
hateful boy" I suggest you take a good and long look in a mirror and learn a thing or two about respect. Not me you can call whatever you like, I can take it, but the dead must be respected.
It's one of the simple values of civilization.
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 17:01
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Originally posted by Menippos

How come and this thread has turned into another greco-turko-whateverelse conflict again???
Moderators, please....

I think so Menippos. This is a rediculous thing to change regular topics into national and personal wars, but please, read the posts above, and objectively, tell me who started this by changing the discussion into an attacking base?



And because somebody decided to change the subject, do we all really have to "jump to the opportunity"? Are we so easily ...manipulated?
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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 17:03

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Me, wanna be Mongol? Why should I want to? I am a Turk, and I know we are closer to Mongols, our cousins, than we are closer to Slavic mix Greeks. This is the fact and noone can deny it. In fact, you are a wanna be Greek who is half Slavic and half Turkish. What you inherited from your ancient Greek ancestors is only their names, even not their language. We are Turanoids, and we are not Greeks, so as you arent. Kapish??

What to expect from a Turk to say..Anyway, all people live on earth. It's very difficult for a nation not to mix up with others. But the main point is what the extent of the mix and the influence is and if the DNA of the people has changed significantly or not. It's stupid to say all these without having evidence. Go and check some researches about Greek people. You'll see that Greeks are a pure nation like most of the european nations. Some ignorant and blind people (from all the countries) always say inaccuracies only to show their hatred about the others. It doesn't work!

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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 17:59
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Kapish??



LOL, how Turanian, Oguzoglu! (joking, bre)
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  Quote Pete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 18:01
Originally posted by dorian

Go and check some
researchesabout Greek people. You'll see that
Greeks are a pure nation like most of the european
nations.



Dorian, I am sorry, I love Greece from the bottom of
my heart but this is absurd. There is no such thing
as a "pure nation", never was, never will be. And
there is indeed an enormous amount of scholarship
on the subject.

European nations were invented in the last few
couple of centuries with the invention of nationalism.
They have been made to seem homogenous by
ignoring or forcibly assimilating minorities, and by
reinventing history. Borders were drawn cutting
ethnic groups in half, and people were taught to
think of themselves as being of a nationality or
another.
All peoples are a mixture of peoples, who came from
another mixture of some other mixtures. Yes, the
Turks too, very much so. So the Greeks, ancient and
modern, so everyone.   
Why do you all seem to regard this as an insult, as
shameful problem?

I asked before: why should someone self-esteem
depend on some genealogical myth?

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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 18:01
Originally posted by baracuda

Greek sounds like if there's a cat down your throat hissing and o'sising all the time, I like it.. but in a more suttle way..


Russian, sit on your eggs...LOL
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