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History comparisons! Othman and Macedonian
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: History comparisons! Othman and Macedonian
    Posted: 01-Jan-2014 at 20:06
The Battle of Granicus, is but a fable battle that is later known as the battle at the Issus, etc.! Alexander meaning according to some sources as "The Defender of Man" or "...of Muhammed?" pb.. There seems to exist information that Phillip, the father of Alexander, had laid siege Constantinople or more correctly Byzant before crossing into Asia. But, it seems that the narrow crossing at Byzant, was not to be allowed so his army had to take a great chance to cross at a differnet and more difficult place. The Persians were also forced to use the same area earlier for what might well be the same problem?   More to come!

Have to go now.

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 01-Jan-2014 at 20:16
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Posts: 1130 		  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2014 at 17:25
Originally posted by opuslola


You might well remember that Alexander was not reported to have attacked Constantinople / Byzant when he entered Asia Minor!

Just why would he avoid it, and also miss a very narrow passage into Asia Minor?


Was there any Persian force or land in Europe before the Alexandre journey? According to this map, father of Alexander had already taken the Thrace. It looks the first Persian land is Hellespontine Phrygia
File:Map Macedonia 336 BC-en.svg

File:Achaemenid Persian Empire Map-Greek Romanized.png

and It's capital is Daskyleion so probably Persian army was near it (the first battle is Granicus, it is very close). Alexandre sent one of his general to take the city after the battle. This city should be more important than a fishing town.


Edited by Ollios - 01-Jan-2014 at 17:26
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2014 at 12:47
Resurrecting this old thread for newer members comments if any.

Ron
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Posts: 869 		  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2011 at 10:02
I agree with everything but I don't see what Iran has every had to do with both Sufism and Christianity. Sufism caught on mostly in Turkey but to a much smaller degree in Iran. 
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"Several important religions and religious movements originated in Greater Iran, that is, among speakers of various Iranian languages and hence with an Iranian cultural background. Moreover, Iranians played a significant role in the development and transmission of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam."   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_religions


These include:

- Zoroastrianism (and Zurvanism or "Zurvanite Zoroastrianism") a monist dualism.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrian

- Mandaeism a gnostic monotheism that observed "Knowledge of Life".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism

- Manichaeism may have been influenced by Mandaeism but actually Mandaeism and Manichaeism seem to be independent – to some degree opposing – developments out of the mainstream Sabian religious community.

- Sabians a monotheistic Abrahamic religious group mentioned three times in the Quran: "the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians.". Their identity is still a matter of discussion and investigation.    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabians

- Sufism has monotheism as its practical aspect, believed in a direct perception of spiritual truth (God), through mystic practices based on divine love.  .... A great influence was exercised by Sufism upon the ethical writings of Jews in the Middle Ages.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

 

Greco-Roman mysteries:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Roman_mysteries

- Dionysian   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysian_Mysteries

- Orphism   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphic_Mysteries

- Sabazios  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazius

- Cybele  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele

- Isis  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis

- Mithraic mysteries  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism

 

Mithra - whose rituals formed the template for early Christinaity (e.g. the birthday of Mithras was on December 25.)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra


Mithraism - Dress Rehearsal for Christianity   http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/Mithraism.html

MITHRAS = CHRISTIANITY?    http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html

Mithraism and Early Christianity    http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/mithraism.html

Did Christianity Steal From Mithraism?    http://www.comereason.org/cmp_rlgn/cmp070.asp

and so on... ...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Analyzing the data

How do we proceed if we want to make sense from this mass of data? One way is to examine the iconography for stylistic and technical aspects. The artist and restorer Alexander Zhabinsky discovered many parallels in art. By arranging works of art in terms of increasing complexity in the representation Zhabinsky found that art history, as outlined by Winckelmann, fits onto a wavy line, which he called a "sine wave". His discovery is called Zhabinsky's Sinusoid. This discovery, it later turned out, could be applied not only to dating works of art, but also literature and science. Overall, the Sinusoid illustrates the artificiality of the traditional chronology. Note that the Sinusoid is within the Chronotron school of thought, which fits alongside New Chronology Fomenko Novosky and Project Civilization, as the 3 main Russian methodologies.

 

The whole of his book is available online in Russian, but some pages are in English:

http://newarthistory.eu/eng/index.html

http://newarthistory.eu/eng/index.html?raising_falls.html


For some "testing" of the idea see the following *Russian* pages:

http://chronology.org.ru/newwiki/%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B0_%D0%96%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE

http://imperia.lirik.ru/index.php/content/view/10/7/



Edited by shokdee - 30-Jul-2011 at 06:53
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Posts: 67 		  Quote shokdee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2011 at 09:35
To finish up my train of thought, some other areas to look for further information:

First, Mani and Manichaeism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_%28prophet%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ManichaeismSpread.jpg

Notice, that Augustine of Hippo "established anew the ancient Faith" and was heavily influenced by Manichaeism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo

Next, the Bogomils
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomils

Spread of Bogomilism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Razvoj_bogumilstva.jpg

In the New Chronology FN this is the pagan precursor to Christianity, as reported in work of Tabov.

Finally, the Cathars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars

Another piece in the puzzle....

====================

Ron, thank you, for making time to look into this and I hope your reading is fruitful.
But could I ask you to please move away from vague metaphors like "son"="sun" for now and stick to what we can actually see and examine together over the Internet: icons, statues, figurines, archaeological artifacts, paintings, mosaics, and so on. I ask because New Chronology FN have found over 50 "reflections" of Christ already by studying the text data, covering this area in MINUTE detail. (Was Jesus tied to a stake or crucified? Did he have a chain around his neck? If crucified was the cross +-shaped or T-shaped? Did the nails go through the wrists or the hands? Was his right hand cut off? Was his eye damaged? Did he wear a crown of thorns? and on and on.) When you examine ALL the accounts of the Christ figure (Hebrew, Greek, Latin, English. Old Slavic, Russian, Coptic, Mormon, etc etc) comparing 40 or so different versions then the details increase exponentially and it's possible to make any argument. If we stick with material artifacts and avoid "word play" then we create a shared pool of material that everyone can refer too.




Edited by shokdee - 28-Jul-2011 at 09:40
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2011 at 08:33
Just a quick reply shokdee! It will take me some time to really review your sources.

But, off hand, I want to mention "Jain or Jina", may well be another version of the Holy Man who predeeded Jesus, and that is "John!"

The use of the "Sun" symbol, especially a rising or setting Sun, is only an example of how the word Sun also morphed into the word "Son?"

The metaphor of the "Rising / Risen Sun" can easily be compared to the use of "the (A)Risen Sun", in the ressurection of Jesus.

Jesus frequently seems to have left his family or followers to meditate, and perhaps he used similar poses.

Jain / Budda is sometimes shown as you did above at; "Now have a look at a picture of him at the moment of enlightenment:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Mahavira_Enlightenment.jpg"

Surrounded by a circular "halo" of golden light. As you well know this was almost always the way Jesus or John the Baptist, was pictured in the past, as well as the present.

You used this quotation above; ""Most of the Jain Tirthankaras are depicted in the Kayotsarga meditative posture. The word kayotsargga is made up of two words Kaya meaning body and utsarga meaning to give up."

I would suggest that this is a metaphor of the words supposedly said by Jesus upon the cross, where he "gives up" his human body, etc.!

The exposure of the palms of the hands, as mentioned above, could be compared to the notion that Jesus showed his open palms to the desciples after his re-appearance!

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Posts: 67 		  Quote shokdee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2011 at 00:39
Some further thoughts:

"A shramana is a wandering monk in certain ascetic traditions of ancient India including Jainism, Buddhism, and Ajlvika and include Mahavira and Gautama Buddha.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shramana."

Jainism *precedes* Buddhism, and Buddha images were modeled on the earlier Jain ones.

ASIDE Notice that "In the Buddhist setting, this involved depicting in the image some of the thirty-two marks (lakshana) of a Great Person. These included long, webbed fingers; a penis concealed in a sheath; long arms; thirty-four teeth that were straight and pure white;
blue eyes; a tuft of hair between the eyebrows; and a protuberance from the top of the head"

Background:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Jainism

"In Jainism, a Tirthankar ("Fordmaker or Propagator"; also Tirthankara or Jina) is a human
being who achieves enlightenment (perfect knowledge) through asceticism and who then
becomes a role-model teacher for those seeking spiritual guidance."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthankara

"Rishabha was the first of the 24 Tirthankara. He belonged to the House of Ikshwaku, which
was also known as the "House of the Sun"."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishabha_%28Jain_tirthankar%29

The  24th and the last (and a contemporary of the Buddha):
"Mahavira (‘Great Hero’) is the name most commonly used to refer to the Indian sage Vardhaman (traditionally 599–527 BCE) who established what are today considered to be the central tenets of Jainism."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavira

Now have a look at a picture of him at the moment of enlightenment:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Mahavira_Enlightenment.jpg

Notice he is hunching.

Body positions are a central identifying feature of Jainism.

"Jain meditation is also referred as Samayika. The word Samayika means being in the moment of continuous real-time. This act of being conscious of the continual renewal of the universe in general and one's own renewal of the individual living being (Jiva) in particular is the critical first step in the journey towards identification with one's true nature, called the Atman. It is also a method by which one can develop an attitude of harmony and respect towards other humans and Nature. By being fully aware, alert and conscious of the constantly moving present, one will experience their true nature, Atman."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_meditation

The 24 Jain Tirthankaras are always seen in meditative posture and have practiced it deeply to attain enlightenment.

"Most of the Jain Tirthankaras are depicted in the Kayotsarga meditative posture. The word kayotsargga is made up of two words Kaya meaning body and utsarga meaning to give up."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayotsarga     <--- very poor article!!

Jina images come in two poses. In one he is seated with the legs folded upon each other, and the hands one atop the other, palms facing upward, resting on the lap. In the other he stands erect, legs and feet parallel, and the arms hanging down at the side of the body with the palms facing inward.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f5/Siddha.jpg/175px-Siddha.jpg

(Note to self - find the links to images of standing Adinatha and Parshvanatha icons, and the one with the roots and vines creeping over his body).


Edited by shokdee - 28-Jul-2011 at 00:44
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Posts: 67 		  Quote shokdee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2011 at 22:21
<< I just don't accept the current dating for the life and imagery of Budda.>>

Willing to read anything if you can provide the evidence. What has lead you to this conclusion and can you further inform me. Can you start by looking at the Greco-Buddhist links from earlier and accounting for that imagery. Thanks.

Can you show that Jesus is not Buddha in His Western travels?


Edited by shokdee - 27-Jul-2011 at 22:28
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2011 at 10:21
Well shokdee, first of all, I just don't accept the current dating for the life and imagery of Budda.

As most people already know, there exists a long gap in the proposed lifetime of Jesus. That is from the time he and his family escaped to Egypt, fleeing Herod, etc., until he suddenly returns to Judea as a man of about age 28-30, leaves one with a desire to find some mention of him and his family during this period which might well consist of 17 or more years.

As you might well also know, there have been numerous books and articles written that attempt to explain this period, with some of them proposing that He was traveling in the East, and studying as a Holy man, maybe even in Tibet. So, in the eyes of these writers, Jesus equals Budda, etc., in his Eastern travels.

I have also proposed that Jesus might well have been many years older than our currently held proposals. I suggest that his real life, as a man or son of God, only began after he came of age as a Jewish man, that is after his Bar Mitzvah, at about age 12-14. If this can be considered then he was closer to age 40+ at his death, than age 30.

I could also propose that his life as a "Holy Man", became the beginning of his now accepted lifetime. Thus one could well accept that he began his 30 or so years of a "Holy" life, at a much later time, and that he might well have lived until age 60 or so.

So, as you see, I consider many strange things, but the study of the past already forces us to continually consider many strange things.

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Posts: 67 		  Quote shokdee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2011 at 05:34
Maybe I'm distracting you from your main argument but  the reply - "But, I would venture to state that the representations of Budda (sic) as seen around the world (!?!), are exactly similar (!?!) to the representations of Jesus, Peter, Mark, Elisha, Solomon, Noah, etc., (!?!! so many??)  that have been presented in one form or another in most all so called Christian churches." -  is a bit sweeping.

I don't see the similarity: bloody Jesus hanging nailed to the cross is the same as the Buddha (!)
 sitting serenely in meditation?

Buddhist imagery predates Jesus imagery by 1000 years, so which takes precedence? Did Jesus preach karma and reincarnation?
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2011 at 17:15
Shokdee, sorry for missing your post above for so long!

Alas, I will have to admit that regarding your query above, that my knowledge of it is miniscule at best.

But, I would venture to state that the representations of Budda, as seen around the world, are exactly similar to the representations of Jesus, Peter, Mark, Elisha, Solomon, Noah, etc., that have been presented in one form or another in most all so called Christian churches. I would refer one to the supposedly ancient battles fought between the Iconoclasts, and their enemies, as well as other examples.

Since I was raised as a Southern Baptist, I grew up in a church that exhibited no examples of a statue of Christ, or a Cross, etc.!

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Posts: 67 		  Quote shokdee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2011 at 01:52
Ron, what are your thoughts on...

"Greco-Buddhism (the cultural syncretism between Hellenistic culture and Buddhism), which developed between the 4th century BCE and the 5th century CE in the area covered by the Indian sub-continent, and modern Afghanistan, Pakistan and north-western border regions of modern India was a cultural consequence of interactions begun by Greek forays into India from the time of Alexander the Great, carried further by the establishment of Indo-Greek rule in the area for some centuries, and extended during flourishing of the Hellenized empire of the Kushans. Greco-Buddhism influenced the artistic, and perhaps the spiritual development of Buddhism, particularly Mahayana Buddhism."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism

"Greco-Buddhist art, characterized by the strong idealistic realism and sensuous description of Hellenistic art and the first representations of the Buddha in human form, which have helped define the artistic (and particularly, sculptural) canon for Buddhist art throughout the Asian continent up to the present."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art
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Posts: 17084 		  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2011 at 18:35
I just ask you above about origin of name Ottoman?!?Also was disputed that same history characters on
Balkans, are Albanians in Albanian history,Greeks in Greek history,Bulgarians in Bulgarian history,Serbian in...,Macedonian in ....I suppose that people,"legitimate" ancestors of crusaders,in there conflicts for the title of "Holy Roman Empire" have ruled Balkans and native populations, pushing them to fight one another!  I have already told you about name Macedon,during Roman and Byzantine Empires,Macedonia.Using syllables
that were used by Denaywemo(Danayans) before:MoKjeDoNo/N is logical form created by me!?!
I believe original name means :Godess's(of Earth) strength protect(us) on distance.Italians still call them Machedone!





Edited by medenaywe - 09-Mar-2011 at 12:33
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2011 at 18:14
I am still confused by your response above?

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Posts: 17084 		  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2011 at 00:44
You are closer to revelation and God himself speaking that way!Charlie Babbitt says a joke!(Rain man movie
citat).
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2011 at 23:00
I would also correlate the above with the Atta-mens, as well as the Makka-donians?, and those reportedly form Mecca/Makka!

Regards,

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Posts: 17084 		  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2011 at 19:19
It is not wrong that you fail.Worst thing is not to raise again.
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2011 at 18:21
I really feel that you should try and find an good English translator, and use him or her?

Otherwise, it seems we fail to communicate!

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Posts: 17084 		  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2011 at 16:41
You can not because you are not part of Balkans every day's life.Man i am using indirect speech forms from books!Sorry about that.Maybe with short sentences will catch my premises.Shortly speaking,above I am saying that medieval ages stories are still reflecting our every day life on Balkans!?!"Legitimate" ancestors of Roman Emperor have been involved in most of World Wars as gun triggers!?!I will start with assassination of Franz Ferdinand,Serbian king Alexander assassination,etc..etc...


Edited by medenaywe - 21-Feb-2011 at 17:10
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