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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Korean descendants conquered China
    Posted: 05-Nov-2009 at 21:15
The history of origin of Jin(金, Kim) and Qing dynasty was finally broadcasted in KBS. The originator of Jin(金, Kim) dyansty was a Korean who name was Kim Ham-bo. Royal family of Silla (Korean dynasty) moved to northern Korean penninsular and founded Jin dynasty with Jurchens (AD 1068). They occupied north China and moved capital to Beijing. This country was destroyed by Mongol's Chingis Khan in 1234. But, their descendents founded Later Jin(金, Kim) dynasty again in 1616 (changed to Qing(淸) later) and conquered China in 1644. They governed and colonized China until Chinese got independence in 1912. Watch Korean History Special by KBS: Following is the documentary broadcased in KBS. Short version with English subtitle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Hm-SRD9CQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alMUUZ15Vuk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPf3haNr4wg Full version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pjxaDIxcyE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_IP2kkFEXc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyE_enR5UMQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar2YEaYj4lE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz2YqsolBm0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfTDO8tjEDQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nF_lWtM0QY reference: Hanpu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 함보 - Korean wikipedia 역사스페셜 - [특별기획"> 만주대탐사 2부작 - 2부 금나라를 세운 아골타, 신라의 후예였다! (in Korean) http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/Korean+connection+to+Manchus watch the episode in KBS (in Korean) The Full version of documentary by KBS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvLF0KQ0yhA
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2009 at 21:16
Silla(新羅) connection to Jurchens After Silla destroyed Goguryeo and expanded territory further north, some people of Silla moved to north which was old Goguryeo's area. After the collapse of Silla, some people of Silla escaped to Balhae. But, Balhae was collaped at Liao invasion again. They unified Jurchen tribes establishing Jin dynasty. The originator of Jin dynasty was a Silla person. His name was Hambo. The emperor of Jin dynasty was called a Silla person by Song Chinese who visited Jin in 1120s. Some history books say that the Jurchen King was a Silla person, others say that the originator of Jin was first from Goryeo[7]. It is because Silla was replaced by Goryeo. However, Chinese, Mongol, Korean, and Manchu history records are consistent impling that Jurchen kings are originally from Silla. The name of the originator of Jin(金) is Hambo(函普). When he came first from Goryeo(高麗), his age was 60 金之始祖諱函普,初從高麗來,年已六十餘矣 (in 1st chapter of the history of Jin(金史) [3]) Not only the originator of Jin, but also Agolta (阿骨打), the founder of Jin dynasty, was called originally a person from Silla Agolta (阿骨打) of the Jurchens declared to be the Emperor, ... He was originally a person of Silla (新羅人) 女真阿骨打稱帝,姓王名做旻,本新羅人,號完顏氏 (in 3 宣和遺事 (大宋宣和遺事)) [2] Jurchen Agolta named the state Great Jin (大金) (... He is originally a person of Silla). 女真阿骨打稱帝國號大金(...本新羅人) (in《佛祖歷代通載》卷19) There are lots of history records showing that the originator of Jin dynasty was a Silla person (or from Goryeo) The originator of Wonan family (Jin's royal family) is a person of Silla 完顏之始祖指蒲者,新羅人 (in 大宋遗民) The name of the originator of Jin is Hambo. He came first from Goryeo (髙丽) 金之始祖諱函普初從高麗來 ( in 大金國誌 written by Song Chinese) The originator of Jin, Hambo was first from Goyreo. 金之始祖諱哈富(舊作函普)初從髙麗來 (in 三朝北盟會編 written by Song Chinese) Mongol and Korean records are consistent showing that the originator and the king of Jin dynasty are Silla persons. Goryeo claimed that Jin dyansty was originally inside Goryeo and they were people of Goryeo, and Goryeo was the mother country of Jin dynasty People of Jin was originally Pyungjoo people in our country Goyreo. Goryeo was a mother country of Jin. 金則本我國平州之人, 稱我爲父母之國, 尹灌築九城之地, 以先春嶺爲界, 終金之世, 兵不相加。(高麗史 written by Korean dynasty) The king of Jurchens is originally a Silla person 其初酋長本新羅人 (in 金志 written by Mongols in Yuan dynasty) Until when did the royal family of Jin dynasty know that they were from Silla? When Jurchens visited Goryeo, they said their country was originated from Goryeo. My ancestors (我祖宗) originated from the High country (大邦: Goryeo). 我祖宗出自大邦 (from 高麗史13卷-世家13-睿宗1109, written by Korean in Goryeo) When Jin dynasty invaded Song China, two Chinese emperors were captured as hostages in 1127. Song Chinese visited Jin dynasty to negotiate with Jin to find a way to get their emperors back in 1129. They recorded that the king of Jin dynasty (the second empeor of Jin) was a person of Silla. It shows that the royal family of Jurchen was called Silla people even after Jin dynasty was founded. The king of the Jurchens is a person of Silla. 女真酋長乃新羅人 (in 松漠記聞 (洪皓, 宋), 1129, written by Song Chinese) Korean connection to Manchus of Qing dynasty Manchu Qing dynasty(1616-1912) is the successor of Jurchen's Jin dynasty (1115-1234) . Jurchens rebuilt Later Jin dynasty in 1616. They changed the country name to Qing (1636), and conquered China (1644), Mongolia (1697), Taiwan (1683), Tibet(1750), and Uyguru(1759). The royal family of Qing believed that they were descendents of Jin's royal family. Manchu people in Qing dynasty also knew that the originator of Jin dynasty was from Goryeo (or Silla). Qing government published their own history book, "The origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考)" in 1777. They worte that the originator of Jin dynasty was first from Goryeo in the book. Also, they wrote that the origin of the country name Jin (金) was from the surname of kings of Silla(新羅). The name of the originator of Jin is Hambo. He came first from Goryeo (髙丽) 金之始祖讳哈富(旧作函普)初从髙丽来 (in Chapter 7, The Origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考) [1] ) The name of Jin(金) was originated from the surname of Kings of Silla(新羅) 新罗王金姓则金之逺派 (in The Origin of Manchu [1]) Silla came to Wannan family. Silla kings' surname 金(Kim in Korean) inherited ten generations. So, Jin(金) came from Silla. There is no doubt that it became the country name. "本自新羅來姓完顔氏 新羅王金姓 相傳數十世則金之自新羅來 無疑建國之名 "(in The Origin of Manchu [1]) Also, Qing emperors' surname was "愛新覺羅". Interestingly, it can be read as "love Silla (愛 新羅) and remember Silla (覺 新羅)". The surname "愛新覺羅" means gold(金) clan in Manchu pronunciation (Aisin Gioro). The surname Kim(金) of Silla kings means gold too. After the end of Qing dynasty, the descendents of royal family changed their surname to 金. The Manchu royal family Aishin Giro (愛新覺羅) clan were people who lived in Odoli Castle which is in current Hoeryong (회령), North Hamgyong in North Korea where was part of Joseon dynasty since 14th century. They were a vassal tribe to Joseon dynasty, and they treated Joseon as a mother country. Nurhachi called Joseon dynasty "mother country" in the letter to Joseon showing willingness to help Joseon at the invasion of Japan in 16th century. The foundation story of Qing dynasty explains the birth place of Nurhachi, who was the founder of Qing, as the east of Baekdu Mountains which is current North Korea. "There was a lake called Bulhūri at the foot of Bukūri Mountain, located to the east of the Baekdu Mountains. When three angels bathed in that lake, a magpie left a fruit on the youngest angel Fekulen's clothes. She ate the fruit and became pregnant. She mothered Bukūri Yongšon, the founder of Aisin Gioro. He was later welcomed by the people as the Beile. He settled at Odoli Castle on the Omohoi Plain and became the founder of the Manchu State." Qing government announced the definition of Manchu and prohibited the term 'Jurchen' referring to them. The half of Manchu tribes were Korean tribes by the Qing's definition of Manchu. Definition of Manchu from "The origin of Manchu (滿洲源流考)" [1] Manchu Tribe 1: Suksin (肅愼, Jurchen), Buyeo(夫余, Korean) Manchu Tribe 2: Yilou (挹娄, Ainu), Samhan(三韩, Korean), and Mulgil (勿吉, Jurchen) Manchu Tribe 3: Baekje(百济, Korean) Manchu Tribe 4: Silla(新羅, Korean) Manchu Tribe 5: Malgal(靺鞨, Jurchen) Manchu Tribe 6: Balhae(渤海, Korean) Manchu Tribe 7: Wanan (完颜, Korean royal family and Jurchens), and GeonJu (建州, Jurchen) Genetic analysis of Koreans and Manchus According to genetic analysis using Y-chromosome, Manchus are closest to Koreans than any other ethnics in comparisons [5]. Y-chromosome analysis. Koreans are closet to Manchus. KOR(Korean), MAN(Manchu), KCN(Korean Chinese), NHN(North Chinese), JPN(Japanese). (From Katoh's paper 2005) In this study, both Korean and Korean Chinese (ethnic Koreans living in China) are genetically closest to Manchus. Interestingly Manchus are genetically closer to Koreans than Mongols. it is consistent with the Qing's definition of Manchu tribes in which Korean tribes are majority. It is believed that the population of ethnic Koreans in Goguryeo and Balhae dynasty contributed to main Manchu population in Jin dynasty. Northern Han Chinese were not as close to Manchu as the Koreans and Japanese are, but not as far away than the other ethnics. Current north China was traditional Altaic people's homeland, and Altaic people conquered and colonized China many times. Through history, Chinese were mixed with them . Khitan and Jurchen people governed Northern China during 10~12th century (Liao and Jin dynasty). Mongol and Manchu people governed whole China during 13~14th and 17~20th century (Yuan and Qing dynasty). There are many non-Han Chinese dynasties in Chinese history. Other studies show that genetic distance between Southern Han Chinese and Manchu is big. click to see Altaic influence on Chinese [1] Qing governement, "The origin of Manchu(滿洲源流考)", 1777, http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E6%BB%BF%E6%B4%B2%E6%BA%90%E6%B5%81%E8%80%83 [2] 大宋宣和遺事, http://open-lit.com/showlit.php?gbid=347&cid=1 [3] the history of Jin(金史), http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E9%87%91%E5%8F%B2/%E5%8D%B71 [4] Sin Chaeho, "Joseon Sanggosa", 1931, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon_Sanggosa [5] Toru Katoh, et. al., "Genetic features of Mongolian ethnic groups revealed by Y-chromosomal analysis", **Gene**, Volume 346, 14 February 2005, Pages 63-70. web link [6] Wontack Hong, "How Did the Rulers of the Jin and Qing Dynasties Trace Their Ancestors? The Manchu Origins", EAST ASIAN HISTORY: A KOREAN PERSPECTIVE Vol. 1. No. 2. 2005. 1. 1. http://www.upkorea.net/news/photo/4908-2-4504.pdf [7] "Hanpu", wikipedia.org. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanpu [8] Juha Janhunen, "Tracing Bear totemism in Northeast Asia", http://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/publictn/acta/20/asi20-001-janhunen.pdf [9] "The founder of Jin dynasty, Agolta was a descendent of Silla", History special, KBS, 2009, http://www.kbs.co.kr/1tv/sisa/historyspecial/view/vod/1605745_30885.html
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2009 at 23:30
koreans are really good history sci-fi writers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2009 at 15:11

This topic title does not help any to build good discussion.

The Manchus conquered China and Korea both.
It collapsed Ming and then conquered Chosun.
 
Manchus conquered  Chosun and made the King Injo knelt down in front of the Nurhazhi .
 
Machus did not have much affection to Korea , in fact they did not have much meaning on those history mentioned about the root of their founder.
 
The Koreans during the Chosun Era thought both people fundamentally different and distant , see Park Jowon's Yulha Diary.
 
Koreans thought they were closest people to Han Chinese after Ming and Manchus were less civilized Bavarians , Chosun was very ignorant of the sucessful Manchu Achivement during the Qing.
 
The passion and trend  to study about the close relationship between Koreans and Manchu is very recent because Koreans need to fight against Chinese NE Project. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by sure - 16-Dec-2009 at 15:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2009 at 22:03

All of you must realize China is Communist regime.
China Communist Government trying really hard to distort Korean History.
For example, Koreans need Chinese characters for daily usage. Koreans need Chinese food, Chinese Massage parlor etc.

Reality: Ko-Chosun ( Puyo Tribal established the kingdom in Center between Manchuria and North Korea.)
Korguryo Kingdom ( Puyo Tribal people estblished the kingdom in Manchuria)
Balhae Kingdom ( Koguryo and Puyo people established new Korean Kingdom in Manchuria and Siberia).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2009 at 04:47
Yes, Koreans need China, e.g. North Korea need China supply of fuels and food. South Korea needs Chinese market for its industries and Chinese agricultural products. That is why around 1 million S. Koreans stay in China presently for retirement, study, business etc.

Reality : Old Chosen were founded by Kiji from China, Wiman from Yan , China.
Koguryo Kingdom was established by Buyeo people and Yeamak people from Eastern and North China so that they are sino rather than koreanic. Koguryo set up 5 capitals in total : the initial 3 were in China for more than 400 years the remaining 2 in Pyonyang area in present day North Korea for about 200 hundred years .Koguryo was a multi-ethnic kingdom which also included Hans and Malgal people.
Bahlhae was established by a Malgal general who had been a subject of Koguryo. The name of Balhae was given by the Tang emperor - a subject state of Tang empire in legitimacy.

"A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2010 at 19:28
Originally posted by sure

This topic title does not help any to build good discussion.

The Manchus conquered China and Korea both.
It collapsed Ming and then conquered Chosun.
 


Actually Manchu attacked Korea first and made deal with Korea to support their war campaigns for their conquest of Ming. Manchu invaded Korea twice, this was first. Then after Ming disappeared, Manchu became increasingly ruthless & demanding, then when Anti-Manchu faction in Korea revolted against to Manchu's demands, Manchu invaded Korea for second time. 


Originally posted by Danny.T

Yes, Koreans need China, e.g. North Korea need China supply of fuels and food. South Korea needs Chinese market for its industries and Chinese agricultural products. That is why around 1 million S. Koreans stay in China presently for retirement, study, business etc.

Reality : Old Chosen were founded by Kiji from China, Wiman from Yan , China.
Koguryo Kingdom was established by Buyeo people and Yeamak people from Eastern and North China so that they are sino rather than koreanic. Koguryo set up 5 capitals in total : the initial 3 were in China for more than 400 years the remaining 2 in Pyonyang area in present day North Korea for about 200 hundred years .Koguryo was a multi-ethnic kingdom which also included Hans and Malgal people.
Bahlhae was established by a Malgal general who had been a subject of Koguryo. The name of Balhae was given by the Tang emperor - a subject state of Tang empire in legitimacy.



1. Current North/South Korea relation with China is off topic. China also needs Korea for investment and trades.

2. With regards to Kija and Wiman is still regarded as controversial topics for both Chinese & Korean scholars. According to Korean scholars, this two historic figures might have been fabricated by Japanese during 1920s.

3. Goguryeo never built multi-ethnic Kingdom, Malgal was just another nomads were allowed to stay within the boarder by Koreans. In fact Malgal tribes were every where in Korea. Han Chinese were killed by Goguryeo.

4. Balhae founder was from Gogureyo, he was Gogureyo general and Balhae people distinguish themselves from Malgal. Malgal is aka Magyars in Hungary. Also, Balhae frequently went wars with Tang. I'm sad to see Southern Chinese today fabricates NE Asian history.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2010 at 00:03
@SNK_1408
1. O.K. yr. comment 1, is irrelevant to you.
2. Kija and Wiman were not fabrications in the 1920s by the Japanese, but their history in Chinese
    historical books are much more than that. In 1973 in Yan Mountain area excavation of bronze
    vast  for use in ritual to alot land and title with inscription of Ki duchy in N.E. China. Kija temples
     were found in Korea even before 1920. One Kija temple were tolled down in North Korea in the
     fifties last century.
3. Koguryo was  multi-ethnic esp. in its early years. The Sui soldiers caught in battles became
    POWs. When Tang court sent officials there to take back corpses/ coffins  of Sui soldiers , they
    found a lot of Hans left behind to became Koguryo citizens.
4. Balhae founder was not Koguryo but of Malgal  stock. Balhae seldom went  to war with Tang
    I don't recall any.

As a South Chinese I am proud of my heritage as many original, centuries old culture / heritage are still retained in mountains and hill tribes in the South. Our languages retain the Tang/ Han language flavor. The Tang poetry is best to be recited in Cantonese or Minnam etc. Even Korean/Japanese  languages has got some Cantonese flavor.
"A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2010 at 21:37
Originally posted by Danny.T

@SNK_1408
2. Kija and Wiman were not fabrications in the 1920s by the Japanese, but their history in Chinese
    historical books are much more than that. In 1973 in Yan Mountain area excavation of bronze
    vast  for use in ritual to alot land and title with inscription of Ki duchy in N.E. China. Kija temples
     were found in Korea even before 1920. One Kija temple were tolled down in North Korea in the
     fifties last century.
3. Koguryo was  multi-ethnic esp. in its early years. The Sui soldiers caught in battles became
    POWs. When Tang court sent officials there to take back corpses/ coffins  of Sui soldiers , they
    found a lot of Hans left behind to became Koguryo citizens.
4. Balhae founder was not Koguryo but of Malgal  stock. Balhae seldom went  to war with Tang
    I don't recall any.

As a South Chinese I am proud of my heritage as many original, centuries old culture / heritage are still retained in mountains and hill tribes in the South. Our languages retain the Tang/ Han language flavor. The Tang poetry is best to be recited in Cantonese or Minnam etc. Even Korean/Japanese  languages has got some Cantonese flavor.


1. There could be confusion over Kija & Wiman, but bottom line is both became rulers of ancient Korean states not Chinese states. Yan State is aka Eun-nara, most scholars acknowledge Yan state was possibly mixed heritage states this is because same sets of archeological evidences can be trace all over Korean peninsula too, meaning they shared close relationship. Anything beyond this scholars still don't know. 

2. Koguryo was hardly any multi-ethnic state like of these large Chinese empires. Koguryo was founded by five clans of mostly ancient Korean tribes (2 clans of Buyeo, 1 clan of Yemaek, 2 clans of Samhan). Kogureyo's golden crowns resembled similar designs to Baekje & Silla golden crowns.

3. LoL, Balhea's founder was Koguryeo origin, he even said his kingdom is based from Koguryeo and his father and himself was ex-Koguryeo generals. There is little trace of Malgal ran the Balhae. After the fall of Balhae to Khitans, last major survivals went over to Koryo Kingdom.

4. I''m not too sure about Cantonese influence in Korea/Japan, but Korea & Japan had interaction long before Cantonese became colonized by Northern Chinese, it was Han Dynasty had influence in Korea/Japan when Gojoseon states was destroyed by Han Dynasty. Tang Dynasty's influence came much later.

5. Southern Chinese are more belonged to Viet/Thai origin which both people were originated from Canton region long before the arrival of Chinese from Yellow river. Basically Yangtze river delta was colonized by Yellow river Chinese.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2010 at 18:06
A Question : Where is Yan State? Is it in Korea Peninsula or in China Teritory? If in China, how could you say that they were a Korean State? Or are you claiming that the part of chinese teritory as Korean's?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2015 at 20:50
Originally posted by altaicmania

<span ="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; line-height: normal; "><div style=": rgb255, 255, 255; -repeat: repeat; margin-top: 1px; margin-right: 1px; margin-bottom: 1px; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb0, 0, 0; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.4; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; margin-left: 1px; -: none; "><span apple-style-span="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 11px; line-height: normal; white-space: pre-wrap; ">The history of origin of Jin(金, Kim) and Qing dynasty was finally broadcasted in KBS.

The originator of Jin(金, Kim) dyansty was a Korean who name was Kim Ham-bo.

Royal family of Silla (Korean dynasty) moved to northern Korean penninsular and founded Jin dynasty with Jurchens (AD 1068). They occupied north China and moved capital to Beijing. This country was destroyed by Mongol's Chingis Khan in 1234.

But, their descendents founded Later Jin(金, Kim) dynasty again in 1616 (changed to Qing(淸) later) and conquered China in 1644. They governed and colonized China until Chinese got independence in 1912.

Watch Korean History Special by KBS:

Following is the documentary broadcased in KBS.

Short version with English subtitle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Hm-SRD9CQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alMUUZ15Vuk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPf3haNr4wg

Full version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pjxaDIxcyE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_IP2kkFEXc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyE_enR5UMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar2YEaYj4lE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz2YqsolBm0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfTDO8tjEDQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nF_lWtM0QY

reference:
Hanpu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
함보 - Korean wikipedia
역사스페셜 - [특별기획"> 만주대탐사 2부작 - 2부 금나라를 세운 아골타, 신라의 후예였다! (in Korean)
http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/Korean+connection+to+Manchus
watch the episode in KBS (in Korean)
The Full version of documentary by KBS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvLF0KQ0yhA</span></span>



Its hilarious how you Koreans don't know jack about the people's history you try to steal.

When the Qing invaded and conquered China, they had to do it by giving over Manchu princesses to Han Chinese Generals and Manchu women to Han Chinese soldiers to get them to defect.

Manchu women conquered China by marrying Han men

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35268

When the Qing invaded Korea, the Manchus raped Korean women and took Korean princesses as their concubines.

https://books.google.com/books?id=p3yW5MdzKnUC&pg=PA114#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.gachonherald.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=32

https://books.google.com/books?id=8nXLwSG2O8AC&pg=PA892#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=BRl1sWYShpcC&pg=RA1-PA200#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=IN42AAAAIAAJ&q=dorgon+korean+princess&dq=dorgon+korean+princess&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KaNsVbuZC8KEsAXjy4HoDQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ



The Jurchen royal family named Wanyan that ruled the Jin dynasty is NOT related to the Aisin Gioro royal family that ruled the Later Jin/Qing dynasty.

Wanyan and Aisin Gioro are completely unrelated. There was even a separate Wanyan clan during the Qing and they were not part of Aisin Gioro.

Aisin Gioro claimed descent from Bukuri Yongson whom they claim was born to a virgin who ate a berry at Mount Changbai. Totally unrelated to the Wanyan who claim descent from Hanpu.

http://historum.com/asian-history/85366-who-mongolians-today-11.html#post2125362?postcount=101

Wanyan is not of Korean origin. Hanpu, the founder of the Wanyan, was an ethnic Mohe who was born in or near Goryeo territory. The History of Jin says he was a Mohe born in Goryeo (Korea), it doesn't say he was an ethnic Korean.

A black person born in Korea is not an ethnic Korean. A Mohe born in Korea like Hanpu is not a Korean either.

http://historum.com/asian-history/85366-who-mongolians-today-10.html#post2115247?postcount=93

https://dlib.lib.washington.edu/researchworks/bitstream/handle/1773/20679/Garcia_washington_0250E_10365.pdf?sequence=1

The belief that Hanpu and his brothers originated within the lands of the Korean Peninsula is rooted in a direct reading of the narrative given in the Jinshi . However, some Jurchen scholars suggest that Hanp u and his brothers hailed from a Jurchen tribe that was merel y subject to rule from the peninsula. Still others believe that Hanpu and his brothers never lived within the penin sula and instead were from a family of the Changbai Mountain Jurchens ( Changbai shan 長白山 ) who were known to the state of Goryeo as the "Eas tern Jurchen."


Cerberus explained on Historum how Hanpu was not a Korean to you liars.

http://historum.com/asian-history/85366-who-mongolians-today-5.html#post2104375

     
Old February 27th, 2015, 06:10 PM       #42
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This topic has been dealt with on Historum before and you are advised to look up the thread. The Wanyan clan's legend asserts that one of their ancestors, Hanpu, came from Silla/Goryeo, but simultaneously indicates that they were Mohe, a Tungusic group that, according to records, spoke a unique language that was mutually unintelligible with that of Goguryeo.

The very first line of the Jinshi states:

"金之先,出靺鞨氏。"

Trans.: The ancestor of the Jin came from the Mohe.

"黑水靺鞨居古肅慎地 ... 金國之所起焉。"

Trans.: the Heishui Mohe lived in the ancient land of the Sushen. The Jin began here.

It is widely accepted that the Jurchens came from the Heishui Mohe, who had earlier submitted to Goguryeo as vassals when Goguryeo conquered their lands.

《金史·高丽传》states: “唐初,有粟末、黑水两部,皆臣属于高丽。”

Trans.: At the beginning of the Tang, the Sumo and Heishui tribes were subjects of Goguryeo.

《赞》states: “金人本出之附于高丽者”

Trans.: the Jin came from tribes attached to Goguryeo.

The information above matches well with the Heishu and Sumo Mohe, who were also described as being 附于 - attached - to Goguryeo, rather than being Goguryeo clans. Given the fact that the Hanpu story is a legend with obviously legendary archetypes involving a miraculous birth - ie via a 60-year old woman - and a lawbringer, the mainstream view among Western historians has been to regard the Hanpu narrative as an indicator of the Wanyan's - and the Heishui Mohe's - memory of political relations with Goguryeo, which was conflated with Silla/Goryeo due to those states' widely advertised succession to Goguryeo political authority.

Chinese historians have also observed that "Hanpu" was called Wanyan Hanpu even before he "left" Silla/Goryeo, which debunks the idea that he was surnamed Kim before he joined the Wanyan, and is further support for him being a Mohe figure.

The bottom line is that there is no evidence Hanpu was a living person - he was never recorded in any texts before the Jin, despite having lived centuries earlier - as opposed to a symbolic clan-father created by the Wanyan to try and coopt the political legacy of Goguryeo. But even in the event that he was a living person, there is evidence indicating that he was from a Mohe clan living in/around Korea. The Wanyan clan was not a "Korean" clan when it founded the Jin.

Your willful ignorance of Chinese sources is highly problematic when the historical subjects you're dealing with were recorded solely in Chinese - and by writers who based their works mainly on Chinese records. But not knowing Chinese is forgivable; what's not forgivable is not even bothering to read the English language literature and choosing, instead, to regurgitate information you found on obviously less-than-academic blogs/forums.


Nurhaci's ancestor, Menggetimur, who was originally a vassal to the Joseon, backstabbed the Joseon and defected to the Ming dynasty after Joseon tried to turn him against China.

     
http://books.google.com/books?id=JWpF-dObxW8C&pg=PA1066
     
http://books.google.com/books?id=JWpF-dObxW8C&pg=PA1066&lpg=PA1066&dq=menggetimur&source=bl&ots=2eefxKA1Yb&sig=0X8oAzLhWJQAb1W2P5wLeeT8sfs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LTjwUqqrHOqhsQTh_oC4Cg&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA
     
http://books.google.com/books?id=xrGAXH_ne4IC&pg=PA1066&lpg=PA1066&dq=menggetimur&source=bl&ots=XWBR7IwWq9&sig=6sziUNZD6eEfOU5tsGeVVbhpTrs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LTjwUqqrHOqhsQTh_oC4Cg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ
     
http://books.google.com/books?id=tVhvh6ibLJcC&pg=PA287&lpg=PA287&dq=menggetimur&source=bl&ots=-LTuhkD7B0&sig=fqGpYtKhWtC0RdNC8Oep0sclU4Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LTjwUqqrHOqhsQTh_oC4Cg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwBA
     
http://www.geni.com/people/%E8%82%87%E7%A5%96%E5%8E%9F%E7%9A%87%E5%B8%9D-%E5%AD%9F%E7%89%B9%E7%A9%86-M%C3%B6ngke-Tem%C3%BCr/6000000011043076996
     
http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/5/4/0/3/pages254039/p254039-30.php
     
http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/5/4/0/3/pages254039/p254039-29.php


Nurhaci, the Manchu leader whom you claimed said that Manchus were related to Silla Koreans, said no such thing. In fact, he said the opposite, claiming that Han Chinese and Koreans were closer to each other in culture, "way of life", and clothing, than to Manchus. Nurhaci was a political opportunist who shifted from claiming similarities with Mongols, to pointing out the egregious differences between Mongol nonadism and Manchu sedentart farming     
     
http://books.google.com/books?id=hi2THl2FUZ4C&pg=PA31&dq=Nurhaci+mongol+meat+grain&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4XXsUujGIeO1sASQ0IDwBg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA
     
The languages of the Chinese and Koreans are different, but their clohing and way of life is the same.     

     
     
http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA68&dq=Nurhaci+mongol+meat+grain&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4XXsUujGIeO1sASQ0IDwBg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ
     
Only the speech of the two nations of Chinese and Koreans is different; they are alike in the clothes they wear and in their way of life.     

     
     
Whats more, the Jurchen-Manchus deliberately set themselves apart from Koreans, refusing to eat dogs like Koreans. The Jurchens viewed Korean dog eating as disgusting and were horrified at the practice.     
     
http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/acd/cg/lt/rb/601/601PDF/aisin.pdf
     
(4)Customs and Habits     
The customs and habits of the Jurchens in the Ming era were recorded in detail in the Korean historical materials.     
a. The Ming era Jurchens awed dogs, abstained from killing and eating dogs and clothing the dog skin. They regarded the Koreans holding the dog skin as the utmost evil. According to the historical documents, the Mohes did not awe the dogs, which indicated that dog-awing was a subsequent custom which is still kept in Manchus.     

     
     
http://gbtimes.com/life/manchu-modern-china
     
Another difference with other Chinese ethnic group is that the Manchu dont eat dog meat. Traditionally, dogs have always been highly regarded by the Manchu, since they were useful assistants in farming and horse breeding. Besides this cultural fact, not eating dog is also a way for them to distinguish themselves from the the neighbouring Koreans, who eat dog meat.     

     
     
Koreans tried pacifying the Jurchen by giving them Korean women, but the Jurchen cntinued to revolt and fight the Koreans.     
     
http://books.google.com/books?id=Qe4PoOd89XIC&pg=PA138
     
http://books.google.com/books?id=WJtMGXyGlUEC&pg=PA144
     
Thousands of Korean women were deliberately raped by the Manchus during their invasion of Korea, in order to humiliate the Koreans. The Korean King was forced to prostrate himself before the Manchu ruler.     
     
http://books.google.com/books?id=p3yW5MdzKnUC&pg=PA114
     
http://books.google.com/books?id=XB4UYXNQK1wC&pg=PA328
     
http://books.google.com/books?id=I0vsyEHGkPoC&pg=PA109
     
Hong Taiji changed the name of Jurchens to Manchus, because firstly, Jurchen carried a conatation of referring to the "dependent class" (the class of freed slaves), secondly, the people known as Jurchen had been loyal subjects to the Ming for hundreds of years, and Hong Taiji wanted to erase the stigma.     
     
http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA70

Originally posted by KoreanKorguryoBalhae


All of you must realize China is Communist regime.
China Communist Government trying really hard to distort Korean History.
For example, Koreans need Chinese characters for daily usage. Koreans need Chinese food, Chinese Massage parlor etc.

Reality: Ko-Chosun ( Puyo Tribal established the kingdom in Center between Manchuria and North Korea.)
Korguryo Kingdom ( Puyo Tribal people estblished the kingdom in Manchuria)
Balhae Kingdom ( Koguryo and Puyo people established new Korean Kingdom in Manchuria and Siberia).


For example, Chinese need Korean women.

Korean prostitution gang working in Macau nabbed

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2015/02/116_171925.html

http://macaudailytimes.com.mo/files/pdf2015/2295-2015-04-21.pdf

http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/01/11/taiwanese-se-asian-men-riding-the-korean-wave/

http://shanghaiist.com/2012/12/11/korean_prostitutes_overrun_the_taip.php
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2015 at 06:24
That story was form Manchu history book by Manchurian. This Korean tell truth as writing history record.
 
You check 滿洲源流考

Researches on Manchu Origins

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Researches_on_Manchu_Origins

If you feel shameful to china and chinese history. Blame Manchus, Not Korean.
You chinese write fake history and sci-fi novels
 
 

http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=ByLG-2hZX-MC&pg=PA38&dq=chinese+slave&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=i7V1Utq7CsuqlAXWqYEI&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=chinese%20slave&f=false

 

Many chinese fell  as captives to the Manchus and were made their slave

 

http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=CUcdH6opOlcC&pg=PA271&dq=The+Yangzhou+Massacre&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=Hrh1UpGgLoepkAWIhYBQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20Yangzhou%20Massacre&f=false

 

Manchus slaughtered thousands of Chinese. Even they can sleep with chinese woman whom they immediately wanted

 

http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=iAvEdWkxeNIC&pg=PA109&dq=manchus+rape+chinese+women&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=4v13UtXwDcqhkwXwsoD4Dw&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=manchus%20rape%20chinese%20women&f=false

 

Chinese women raped by foreign invaders mongol, manchus or Japan

  Manchus have raped chinese women and extracted all things from chinese. Chinese were in the pain.

http://eastasiastudent.net/china/classical/yangzhou-shiri-ji-6

 

婦揚人濃抹麗妝鮮衣華飾指揮言笑
this woman was from Yangzhou, with thick make-up and gaudily dressed and ornamented; she spoke, laughed and gestured.

欣然有得色每遇好物即向卒乞取曲盡媚態不以為恥
She was happy and pleased with herself, and whenever the soldiers came across a fine item, she would immediately beg them for it, using to the utmost a charming attitude, without any shame;

予恨不能奪卒之刀斷此淫孽
I was desperate to grab one of the soldier’s blades and sever this wanton good-for-nothing.

卒嘗謂人曰我輩徵高麗擄婦女數万人無一失節者何堂堂中國無恥至此
One of the soldiers at one point remarked on her saying: “We campaigned in Korea and captured tens of thousands of women, but not one of them lost her chastity; how is it that the magnificent China is without any sense of shame?”

嗚呼此中國之所以亂也
Alas, this is why China has been thrown into disorder.

Moreover, Common Korean does not claim manchus were Korean. Korean and Manchus are so different each others,


Edited by kickass666 - 31-Jul-2015 at 06:30
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It is ridiculous that Chinese dare to tell women to Korean

Historically, Chinese women were sold by their foreign masters and they were given to the products.
 
For example, Chinese women, as high born women; Princess were dedicated by neighbors including their maids, weavers, prostitutions, cookers, and young women.
 
Check
 
 
 
Unfortunely, Chinese were treated the beings under stocks by their masters

http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=ATq5_6h2AT0C&pg=RA1-PA146&dq=mongol+chinese+slave&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=TNJ1Uu2NCIypkgXp9YGIDw&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=mongol%20chinese%20slave&f=false

 

When the Mongols invaded and conquered China during the thirteenth century, many Chinese were enslaved in the process

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yel%C3%BC_Chucai

 

He did his best to convince the Mongols to tax rather than slaughter conquered peoples. In Grousset's Empire of the steppes, it is reported that Ögedei would tease him, saying "Are you going to weep for the people again?". The wise chancellor had great words to temper the barbaric leanings of Mongol methodology

 

http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=69EbKf6JrxYC&pg=PA430&dq=mongol+chinese+slave&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=TNJ1Uu2NCIypkgXp9YGIDw&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=mongol%20chinese%20slave&f=false

 

Han Chinese were treated as second-class citizens in the Yuan Dynasty (12711368)

 

 

http://www.san.beck.org/3-6-Mongols.html

 

 

Mongol society in China had four classes. A small number of Mongols was the privileged group, followed by the special status of Turks, Muslims, and other non-Chinese; northern Chinese ranked third, and the multitudinous southern Chinese were fourth, above only a considerable number of slaves. Mongols and other foreigners (mostly from Persia) replaced most of the Confucian aristocrats in government, and the civil service exams were abolished. Many Chinese intellectuals had been made slaves until the Mongols realized they could be useful in their administration. The Mongols then decided to staff each office with quotas of northern Chinese, southern Chinese, and foreigners

 

http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=H103FlBPxfUC&pg=PA215&dq=mongol+chinese+slave&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=TNJ1Uu2NCIypkgXp9YGIDw&ved=0CFgQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=mongol%20chinese%20slave&f=false

 

compare to Muslim victims, 40 banish(gold coin), Chinese victim is just one donkey price

 

http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=koNgDuzz3nIC&pg=PA73&dq=mongol+chinese+slave&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=1Nd1UvaaN4qpkgWgrYHgDw&ved=0CGgQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=mongol%20chinese%20slave&f=false

 

Chinese slaves were equating with cows and horse under law of mongol

 

http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=RKwqnbWf3u0C&pg=PT59&dq=mongol+chinese+slave&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=Hdp1Usu1D4jlkAWS4IFo&ved=0CFkQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=mongol%20chinese%20slave&f=false

 

More chinese were reduced to tenant or even outright slave statue than at any previous time in their history

 

元朝统治实行领主分封制工奴制这些都是典型的奴隶社会特征元朝大量驱口奴隶极其普遍的存在证明元朝是奴隶社会在开设的人市可以任意买卖驱口在元朝一个中等官员就可能有人上百个驱口一个大使长奴隶主的驱口往往成千上万忽必烈宠臣阿合马就有七千多个驱口驱口就是奴隶没有人身自由是主人的私有财产驱口既要向使长缴租也要向政府纳赋元朝法律规定驱口与钱物同主人可以随意买卖或馈赠主人杀死无罪驱口杖八十七良人打杀他人驱口杖一百七杀一个驱口与私宰牛马的刑罚几乎相等元朝佃户地位也极其低下元朝法律规定主人打死佃户只杖一百七在元朝曾是自由之身的农民再度沦于农奴的命运

 

Rulers of Yuan dynasty carried out feudalism and slavery system that are typically symbol of slavery society. In Yuan, there were commonly slaves everywhere. This means that the society of Yuan founded on slavery. Everyone were able to buy and sell slaves in the market. Middle-level government officials normally had more than 100 slaves. Some rich slavery-owners ordinary had a thousand or ten thousand of slaves. Seven thousand of slaves were owned by Yahama 阿合马, who is a favorite retainer of khubilai Khan. Slaves had no freedom and were reckon to be private property. Slave also had right to pay tax to the Mongolian government. Slave-masters randomly traded and donated their slaves to another people and their relatives. If slavery-owner killed a sinless slave, He had punishment of flogging 87 times. Someone, not owners got 107 times. This judgement was same with case of illegal slaughtering a cow or horse. Yuan government made common chinese farmers as slave class.

 

元朝不止用法律的形式赤裸裸的宣布各族人的不平等也赤裸裸的宣布同种人的极度不平等元朝这个由低级原始民族游牧部落建立的朝代使中国又回到了奴隶社会

在蒙元统治时期蒙古人把全中国人分为四等其实是三等蒙古人当时并没有把自己当成中国人),我们所处的北方是三等公民——就是历史书上说的那个汉人这是历史书上讲的后面的故事历史书上就没有了蒙古人如何统治汉人呢除了建立必要的军事力量和镇压工具监狱),在最基层每个村子派一个蒙古家庭统治整个村子的汉人汉族人姑娘要结婚必须和这家蒙古人的男人睡三天觉用文绉绉的语言说就是这位姑娘的处夜权是属于蒙古人的汉族老人到了六十岁必须送到野地里的一个墓穴里等死这个墓穴也就是老人们说的砖打墓由此看来蒙元时期是中国人最屈辱最黑暗的一段时期而不是像某些无耻的爱国历史专家所吹嘘的那样强大无比威震亚欧

 

Yuan dynasty declared inequable race policy each people under role of Mongolia as well as plainly discrimination of same race. North chinese were in third class of Mongolian caste system. They were called Han-chinese in the history. But history of chinese under Mongolian empire remained behind-stories. How did mongolian rule on chinese? Mongolian families were bestowed all chinese village for governing them besides military abilities and a jail to oppress chinese. If chinese women got married, they should sleep with their mongolian masters for 3days. In a few word, Mongolian has the right of first night. In case of elderly chinese, 60 years-old chinese might go to the field, they tended to wait the comb calling 砖打墓 until the their death. As seeing this, This time was the darkest and the most shameful period to chinese.

This period was not glorious and powerful chinese history on the Eurasia unlike Some shameless chinese having name ‘爱国have pride about Mongolian order.

 

在具体统治措施上元朝也黑暗无比为了防止汉族人造反每五家汉族人才能有一把菜刀而且这把菜刀是放在蒙古人家里的只有蒙古人同意汉族人才能生火开灶所以汉族人习惯的把这家蒙古人男人叫老灶爷女的叫老灶奶还画了图贴在厨房每到新年这家蒙古人要到县城汇报整个村子的情况为了让老灶爷”“上天言好事到腊月二十三每家每户都会把好吃的送到蒙古人家里谓之祭灶如果你有机会到农村看到老灶爷老灶奶的图象你会发现图中的人物穿着打扮都是蒙古装

 

In detailed aspect of governmental actions, the order of Yuan was perfectly dark age. Mongolian rulers performed the law that Five chinese households had only 1 knife in order to prevent uprising of chinese. Above all, the knife might be in home of mongolian masters. Under agreement of mongolian masters, Chinese could fire and cook foods, then Chinese customly called mongolian male masters as “老灶爷” and female as “老灶奶”. These mongolian masters reported situations of their village to prefecture officers. Chinese dedicated delicious foods to their mongolian masters on December 23th of the lunar calendar. This custom was called “祭灶”.

If you have a chance to see the picture about “老灶爷” and “老灶奶” in rural areas of China, You will check out these features wearing Mongolian dress in the picture.

 

 

元朝对汉民族的残暴统治甚至延伸到了床头在蒙古人征服时期汉人和其他各少数民族百姓里每家新媳妇的头一夜是一定要给蒙古保长过的因为他们是在蒙元征服王朝中是最下等的阶层可以任人使唤欺躏由于屈辱的初夜权所以当时的汉人结婚后都是把第一胎摔死这就是摔死第一胎的来历我们的祖先就是用这么无奈但又坚决的方法来维持着血统的纯净
Cruel rule of Mongolian even stretched to chinese’s bedroom. the first night of chinese and the minority bribes should be with Mongolian. By this humiliating the right of first night, Chinese husbands necessary had an abortion when their wife had elderist son. This caused the custom aborting the first child among chinese. It could’t helped any choices to chinese at the time, They preserved pure blood such as the tough way like abortion.

 

元朝统治者对汉人的杀戮更是让人发指蒙古人曾一度要杀绝中国人让良田尽为牧场若非耶律楚材劝说使他们意识到中国人还有纳税这一功能当今天下早就没有中国人的痕迹尽管如此蒙古人仍然曾经实行过屠杀几个大姓的政策在四川也曾屠杀过数百万人口蒙古人统治对中国社会也是极大的摧残汉人南人是贱民财产可以任意夺取妻女可以任意糟蹋生命可以任意杀戮中国人甚至连姓名都不能有只能以出生日期为名不能拥有武器只能几家合用一把菜刀在蒙古人杀戮和统治下中国人口急剧渐少一二二叁年南宋嘉定十六年南宋有人口七千六百八十一万加上金国的人口总人口超过一亿而离一二七八年南宋灭亡已经十二年后的一二九零年元至元二十七年),面积广大得多的元朝的人口才五千八百八十叁万可以想象杀戮之惨烈中国的文化由于蒙古人的入侵和统治而衰落蒙古人还曾一度于山东沿海一带每年夏秋之际往海中扔抛成村的汉人以控制汉人人口增长

 

Slaughtering of chinese from Mongolian ruler was much more serious. Mongolian tried to kill all population of chinese owing to foundation of ranch. If Yelü Chucai did not stop or inform profit of tax from chinese, the existence of chinese might be vanished in the world. Even though mongolian did his suggest, Mongolian adopted a massacre policy of several chinese houses having many population. As a result, Million of chinese in Sichuan province was killed. The role of Mongolian made chinese society very impoverished. Both North Chinese and South Chinese were slave class. Mongolian masters could freely plunder their estates and raped their children.

After all Mongolian were able to decide life of death right of chinese. Chinese slaves had no their name, then they just were named the day of their birth. Several families could hold a knife for cooking in common and no weapons. The population of chinese plummeted by mongolian. In 1223, total population of south song dynasty was 76.81million. and plus in the population Jin dynasty reached over 100 million. From 1278 years, annihilation of South song dynasty, to 1290 years, passing after 12 years of that, Chinese population just was 58.83 million. Therefore, the Massacre by mongolian was misery. The chinese culture fell down. In case of the villages of Sandong province, Mongolian once threw chinese into the sea for controling increase of chinese population.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2015 at 08:45
No need to jump to modern prostitute issues in this thread.

Warned.



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Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2015 at 10:13
Nope. better than that... this individual is banned. For a violation of the Coc.


Ref.

''Amended: ''to include single word-names and numbers or letters. Or a variation of the same.''

eg. Mary123.

As most of these combinations are also well known search engine bots; origination from known hazardous IP locations..or also well known for spambots-trolling and id theft.

These include IP's being used by violators of the Coc ref above...from the PRC and or UK..and elsewhere. ''


http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6512&PID=709860#709860

Not to mention this is a carryover fight from another forum that was stopped. Brought here....and an attempted renewal occurred....on the back of a six year old thread. And...trolling.

Thread locked.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 31-Jul-2015 at 10:24
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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