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Why didn't the allies declare war on the USSR?

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why didn't the allies declare war on the USSR?
    Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 12:38
Somthing to compare:
 
In Norway noone was punished for helping Jews.
In Denmark 1 person named Heiteren was killed for helping Jews.
In Holand people who were caught while helping Jews were being sent to concentration camps.
In Belgium thousands of Jews were hidden by non Jews but noone was arrested for it.
In France few catholic priests and one non priest were arrested for helping Jews.
In Italy noone has recived death sentence for hiding Jew.
In Poland: at least 2500 people were shot, hanged, burned or tortured to death for helping Jews.
 
Not to mention the fact that Vichy goverment in France activelly cooperated with Germans in finding Jews and transporting them to death camps. And started doing it before even recived German orders.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 14:07
I have deliberately avoided posting here because of the explosive nature of such discussion! But, I must take a side with Mosquito now!

It is certainly true that in Europe both East and West, it was normal for Soviet Communism to be spread and controlled at times, by European Jewery! This certainly started in the earliest days of the rise of Communism, both in Russia and in the rest of Europe! International Jewery was always connected via mail and person to person access!

They were a "close" people, especially in the intelligensia, or the educated classes, because of both Religion but because the educated also shared a "mostly secret language"!

I don't think that my words above can be really challenged?

Thus in the period of massive and underground revolts and Union actions within all of Europe, it seems that many Jews were drawn to the struggle on the side of the Communists!

In the choice of the rest of the people of Europe who were mostly either Catholic or Protestant (in the greatest parts) it became an easy choice to side with either the Jews (the killers of Christ) and the Agnostics and Atheists, on one side, or with the other side, with other co-Christians!

To (too!) many Christians the choice became rather obvious!

End of my ranting!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 23-Nov-2010 at 14:10
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 16:35
I would like also to quote this account of a Jewish survivor:
 
"In the small houses of Warsaw Zoliborz district inhabitatted mostly by Polish intelligetnsia there were hidden many Jews who had escaped from ghetto. I was in such a home which belonged to a prewar Endek (member of Polish nationalist party). Having learned that he was sheltering two Jewesses I asked with surprise: You who before the war were an anti- Semite are now harboring Jews in his home? He replied: "We have a common enemy and I am fighting in my way. They are Polish citisens and I have to help them".
 
 
 
 
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 19:19
Originally posted by opuslola

I have deliberately avoided posting here because of the explosive nature of such discussion! But, I must take a side with Mosquito now!

It is certainly true that in Europe both East and West, it was normal for Soviet Communism to be spread and controlled at times, by European Jewery! This certainly started in the earliest days of the rise of Communism, both in Russia and in the rest of Europe! International Jewery was always connected via mail and person to person access!

They were a "close" people, especially in the intelligensia, or the educated classes, because of both Religion but because the educated also shared a "mostly secret language"!

I don't think that my words above can be really challenged?

Thus in the period of massive and underground revolts and Union actions within all of Europe, it seems that many Jews were drawn to the struggle on the side of the Communists!

In the choice of the rest of the people of Europe who were mostly either Catholic or Protestant (in the greatest parts) it became an easy choice to side with either the Jews (the killers of Christ) and the Agnostics and Atheists, on one side, or with the other side, with other co-Christians!

To (too!) many Christians the choice became rather obvious!

End of my ranting!

Regards,


Yup, Jews were always behind everything, werent they?...Dead


Edited by TheGreatSimba - 23-Nov-2010 at 19:20
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 19:53
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Yup, Jews were always behind everything, werent they?...Dead
 
Just check how many Jews played key role in the bolshevik revolution.
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 20:08
How many Poles played role in the Bolshevik revolution?

This is the problem with meaningless generalizations. 
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 20:20
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

How many Poles played role in the Bolshevik revolution?

This is the problem with meaningless generalizations. 
 
With great shame I have to admitt that there were some with Feliks Dzierżyński (Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky), nicknamed "Iron Felix" as the most important one. But he was and is considered as villain in the history of my country. And he was the only one that played an important role.


Edited by Mosquito - 23-Nov-2010 at 20:45
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 21:16
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Yup, Jews were always behind everything, werent they?...Dead
 
Just check how many Jews played key role in the bolshevik revolution.

So, each nationality had its scoundrels and heroes, this is why we have to be careful projecting characters of scoundrels at any national groups. 

The fact that many Bolsheviks were murderers and may have been Polish, Jewish or Georgian does not mean that Polish, Jews or Georgians are all Bolsheviks or murderers.


Mosquito, your comment above is not very thoughtful or objective. The same applies to opuslola.



Edited by cavalry4ever - 23-Nov-2010 at 21:20
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 23:47
My dear "cav4ever", I would respectfully suggest that your response was "Not very thoughtful or objective!"

One must first stand in front of a mirror to really see how others see one!

You, have sir, acted as a cad! And as it so happens to be, at least to me, you have sir, what can only be called a, "petrified opinion!"


You actually have a source within Poland, and you merely disreagard his opinion because it does not match yours!

Ron, from a family that had to leave Virginia because of the lack of freedom found there!

Edited by opuslola - 23-Nov-2010 at 23:49
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2010 at 07:23
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Yup, Jews were always behind everything, werent they?...Dead
 
Just check how many Jews played key role in the bolshevik revolution.

So, each nationality had its scoundrels and heroes, this is why we have to be careful projecting characters of scoundrels at any national groups. 

The fact that many Bolsheviks were murderers and may have been Polish, Jewish or Georgian does not mean that Polish, Jews or Georgians are all Bolsheviks or murderers.


Mosquito, your comment above is not very thoughtful or objective. The same applies to opuslola.

 
 
Its hard to call the Poles - Bolshevik's as we had stopped the Red Army advance into Europe in 1920 and that Polish aristocrate Felix Dzierzynski who was the boss of soviet terror machine had raised hand against his own homeland.
As for the Jews it must be said that after 1945 their numbers in Polish puppet goverment was large, especially in the secret police that was torturing and murdering people. The head of stalinist terror in Poland was Jakub Berman - a Polish Jew and another one also responsible for terror was Hilary Minc also a Jew. In fact they were ruling Poland till the death of Stalin.
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2010 at 08:59
 
Originally posted by Mosquito

 
Actually you choosed very difficult example, because there is a lot of things which are not clear about this event, especially there is possibility that it was Soviet inspired action. The case is very famous but noone really knows what happend and why. There were present officers of Soviet and Polish communist secret police and intelligence.

I see the conspiracy theory now: the judeo-bolshevicks murdered each other to slander Poland's reputation. 
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba


Yup, Jews were always behind everything, werent they?...Dead

 Yes, first they created the capitalist banking system and then they released Bolshevism on an unsuspecting world. Next they....Wink

Originally posted by opuslola


They were a "close" people, especially in the intelligensia, or the educated classes, because of both Religion but because the educated also shared a "mostly secret language"!

And what secret plotting language was this?  Hebrew, a dead language used for religious purposes only? Or Yiddish, a "secret" language related to German that most Jews did not speak?


Edited by Cryptic - 24-Nov-2010 at 09:29
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2010 at 08:59
Pilsudski was afraid of having too many communist sympathisers in Poland during the war. The reality vs. fiction is much more ambiguous. Also Pilsudski is an idealized, right wing dictator that won the war and started as a Socialist himself.

Polish communist government had Poles in it. The fact that some had Jewish roots was irrelevant. As the fact that some of Poles in Solidarity had Jewish roots as well. 
When you start dividing a nation on pseudo-religious ground you have problem. Probably saying that most of Poland's communist government was dominated by atheist would be more accurate and as much absurd.



Edited by cavalry4ever - 24-Nov-2010 at 09:05
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2010 at 09:23
Originally posted by Cryptic

I see the conspiracy theory now: the judeo-bolshevicks murdered each other to slander Poland's reputation.  
 
Facts are facts, there were present officers of Soviet NKVD and communist secret police and were assisiting during the pogrm, not stopping it.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2010 at 09:47
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

Pilsudski was afraid of having too many communist sympathisers in Poland during the war. The reality vs. fiction is much more ambiguous. Also Pilsudski is an idealized, right wing dictator that won the war and started as a Socialist himself.
What are you talking about? During which war? Pilsudski died in 1934. As for Polish communists in prewar period most of them was killed by Soviets. Stalin called them to Moscow and executed. The only who were not killed were those imprisoned in Poland.
And your evil Pilsudski had full support of Jewish minority in Poland.
 
"The years 1926–35, and Piłsudski himself, were favorably viewed by many Polish Jews whose situation improved especially under Piłsudski-appointed Prime Minister Kazimierz Bartel.[139][140] Many Jews saw Piłsudski as their only hope for restraining antisemitic currents in Poland and for maintaining public order; he was seen as a guarantor of stability and a friend of the Jewish people, who voted for him and actively participated in his political bloc."
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

Polish communist government had Poles in it. The fact that some had Jewish roots was irrelevant. As the fact that some of Poles in Solidarity had Jewish roots as well. 
When you start dividing a nation on pseudo-religious ground you have problem. Probably saying that most of Poland's communist government was dominated by atheist would be more accurate and as much absurd.
 
Who talks about the religion? Most of the Jewish communists were atheists, being Jewish or not was the matter of ethnicity, not religion. And yes there were Poles too but most of the communist terror machine were Jews, some of them like Berman and Mins, personally picked by Stalin. However I must admitt that they were also persecuating non communist Jews. 
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2010 at 10:31
This is ridiculous, these are the facts:

There were Poles who sympathized with and collaborated with the Nazis (even today there are Polish Nazi's, for example, and the neo-Nazi movement is flourishing in post-Communist Poland)

There were Poles who sympathized with and were part of the Communist Party

To claim otherwise is simply delusional.

As for the Jewish conspiracy that Opuslola is so fond of, its simply ridiculous and had nothing to do with the Jewish faith. If Jews participating in the Communist revolution, it wasnt because they were Jewish or because there was a Jewish conspiracy.



Edited by TheGreatSimba - 24-Nov-2010 at 10:32
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2010 at 08:44
  Posts discussing Neo Nazism in Poland moved to:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28890




Edited by Cryptic - 25-Nov-2010 at 08:47
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2011 at 19:21
Will redefine question again:Was USSR and communism on east and rest of the world,part of some secret
unknown("Conspiracy") plan?Who were people victims of the war?Who did come,instead population cleaned
with invasion in Russia,on living  places  that were inhabited by them?What do happens in the rest of World?We now know that lot of Nazi  members  were  incorporated  inside  countries  of  Alliance.
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  Quote Patrick230 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2016 at 13:22
From your very first sentence it's clear you don't know what you are talking about. The soviet invasion of Poland had nothing to do with "waiting until Poland had no armies left". The Soviets invaded on the date that was agreed to I. The secret protocols of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. These protocols described the partitioning of Eastern Europe into spheres of influence, with eastern Poland falling in the soviet sphere and western Poland going to the Germans. Chamberlain being an appeaser (while certainly true) also has nothing whatsoever to do with this. You shouldn't post answers unless you actually know what you're talking about. I could go on with further analysis of your mistakes but I think these examples speak for themselves.
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  Quote Patrick230 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2016 at 14:06
This is a great question with no single answer. There are many reasons why the western allies did what they did in regards to Poland. Here are a few of the main ones:
First, you have to look at the situation from the English perspective. By the time Germany invaded Poland and started WW2, several things were known (or at least believed) by Britain. First, they believed that Hitler could not be appeased and would continue to take as much territory as he could. Diplomacy was no longer believed to be an option. England had good reason to take this view, as Hitler had reneged on many prior agreements. Next, simple geography was a factor. Located in north-central Europe, the Third Reich's location made the possibility of complete German domination of continental Europe a real possibility. That, along with the perception of Germany as a technological juggernaut, Hitler's obvious territorial ambitions and many other smaller factors, led to Germany being perceived as a much bigger threat than the USSR. Also, my personal opinion is that the Soviets were smarter in how they went about getting what they wanted. Note that the German was invasion of Western Poland occurred a full 16 days before the Soviets invaded from the east. Although both nations had the same goals (and were in fact cooperating under the secret protocols of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with regards to the partition of Poland into seperate Nazi and Soviet "spheres of influence") of taking part of Poland for themselves, the Germans ended up looking like the aggressors while the Soviets appeared to be attempting to secure their borders and create a buffer between themselves and the Nazi regime. Obviously, some of this perception is because the western allies WANTED it to look this way. As declaring war on both Germany and Russia would have been totally unworkable, the bigger threat had to be targeted. One of the real losers in this "propaganda war" was Finland. The Fins became the only democracy to join the axis not out of any common belief, but simply to counter soviet aggression. Finally, Poland was a victim of politics. Though freeing Poland, a nation which was a member of the allies from the beginning, was the reason for the declarations of war that began world war 2, poland was never actually freed even after the capitulation of Germany. They were simply occupied by the USSR, despite the pleas for help from Poland's government in exile. Eventually they were turned into a puppet of the communist bloc. So, in my long winded way, I'm basically saying that the answer to your question is complex, but breaks down to a few simple answers: politics, logistics, and fear. Hope this helps.
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  Quote Mijal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2016 at 03:12
Originally posted by AL_C0

If the U.K and France were obliged to protect Poland, why did they only declare war on Germany and not the USSR when they attacked Poland?





At this stage USSR wasn't seen as an aggressor. When they 'invaded' Poland it was to check the Nazi's from further advance into  Belarus + Ukraine. Prior to the advance Molotov contacted, or at least tried to contact, whatever was left of the Polish government and informed them that in sight of the Nazi advance and the Polish government abdicating they must move their armies in to secure their borders.

As a matter of fact before Molotov made this communication to the Poles he was contacted by a Nazi ambassador that if no one claims these lands that have been abandoned then there may rise up 'other nations' as a consequence. Therefore to prevent the Nazi's from potentially setting up fascist puppet states in Ukraine and Belarus they entered Poland's eastern provinces.

Winston Churchill announced through radio on October 1:

The Soviets have stopped the Nazi's in Eastern Poland; I only wish they were doing it as our allies

Minister Chamberlain announced in the House of Commons:

It has been necessary for the Red Army to occupy part of Poland as protection against Germany.

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