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When interracial couples were illegal

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  Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: When interracial couples were illegal
    Posted: 08-Jun-2009 at 23:46
Until 1967 marriage between the races was forbidden in several US states. Here is a film about the black and white couple Loving who went to the supreme court to be able to live in their home state Virginia where their marriage was forbidden:
 
 
 
 
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 02:03
It was not between any races, but specifically between Blacks and Whites. Also, things were already changing by 1967, it just took that long for the case to get up to the Supreme Court. There were some Southern states which allowed "inter-racial" marriage.  To demonstrate how rapidly things were changing, in 1965 there was a large billboard on State road 87 leading to Fayetteville, North Carolina, that showed a horse mounted Klansman under the legend "Join and Support the United Klans of America". In 1975, Black/White couples could be seen walking on the streets of Fayetteville, holding hands.  I doubt that such would have been possible in the not too distant Johnston County at the time.

Racial segregation also existed in many Latin American countries. In Costa Rica, for example, Blacks were not allowed to travel beyond Turialba until after 1948. In some countries, they were not allowed to inhabit dwellings beyond a certain distance from the (banana company) railroad tracks. Adalberto Ortiz captured the plight of Esmeraldas province (Ecuador) blacks in his novel "Juyungo". In Cuba, the Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico, Black couples were routinely refused seating in many high class clubs and restaurants in the 1930s and 40s. Racial policies in Latin America, generally, were based upon a social preference for lighter skin, rather than any outright banning of Blacks. Thus intermarriages were possible, but "Abuelita" tended to favor her lighter grandchildren over the darker ones. Crude racial jokes are still common in many Latin countries. North Americans may have had the advantage is having such distasteful segregation laws. They forced American society to face them head-on, rather than acknowledging them with a wink.
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 02:34
Yep, a sad case which belongs to the history. 
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2009 at 11:16
All of which earns Jerome Kern/Oscar Hammerstein/Edna Ferber's Show Boat a special place in the history of musical comedy.
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 16:38
The question here should be when did such laws originate and in that context Edna Ferber was discussing a "current event" back in 1927 when she published her novel on Magnolia Hawkes and Gaylord Ravenal. Interestingly, this hysteria over miscegenation is a very 20th century phenomenon, where popular apologist literature and scientism conjoined. Just as Thomas F. Dixon, Jr. was publishing his trilogy (The Leopard's Spots, The Clansman, and The Traitor, 1902, 1905, 1907) on the dangers of race-mixing, the supposed scientists known as Eugenecists were in vogue. Within the context of the "American" experience, the advent of Harvard's Lothrop Stoddard and his The Rising Tide of Color Against White World Supremacy (1920) struck the right chords giving prejudice a "scientific"absolution. Laws against miscegenation (an American coinage from "journalism" first seen in print in 1864 from the pen of D. G. Croly) can be found as early as the 1660s in the English colonial world [e.g. Maryland's 1661/4 statute, which really was directed at increasing the numbers of people under "slave" status rather than proscribing "race mixing"] as the basis of what is known as the "Law of Minor Descent". This direction was reversed during the Abolitionist Movement as exemplified by Massachusetts in 1843, when it repealed the old 1705 colonial statute. The consequences of the Civil War and Reconstruction added a new dimension as witnessed by Croly's coinage of a new word, and the intellectual clime of the years 1890-1910 gave rise to the formally instituted laws of the 1920s, which sought to penalize what had been going on between the races from time immemorial: SEX!
 
Now with regard to Lirelou's digression on Central America and the Caribbean:
 
Racial segregation also existed in many Latin American countries. In Costa Rica, for example, Blacks were not allowed to travel beyond Turialba until after 1948. In some countries, they were not allowed to inhabit dwellings beyond a certain distance from the (banana company) railroad tracks. Adalberto Ortiz captured the plight of Esmeraldas province (Ecuador) blacks in his novel "Juyungo". In Cuba, the Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico, Black couples were routinely refused seating in many high class clubs and restaurants in the 1930s and 40s.
 
Much of these retrictions had their origins not on race but on "foreigness". The majority of Blacks came to coastal Central America as "contract" laborers drawn from the English Caribbean and Haiti. Placing aside the unique resentment exhibited by the history of Haiti and the Dominican Republic, the exploitation of the banana and the building of the Panama Canal between 1896-1916 did cause tension in the social order. Hence clear parallels can be drawn for the diverse geographic settings such as coastal Ecuador and Central America, which differed significantly from places such as Colombia, Brazil, and Cuba, where the traditional status of descent adhered to the old Law of Major Descent [degrees of "whiteness']. That is not to say that there were no efforts in Latin America to confront race prejudice. Since Cuba was mentioned one should take note that as part of the 1933 Revolution, the standard pasport declaration on "race" was amended to read "Cuban" and not the prevalent international standard on skin color. As far as formal laws were concerned in the manner adopted by the United States and certain European countries, these never surged forth in a Latin American "Republican" setting.
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 17:04
In re: "The majority of Blacks came to coastal Central America as "contract" laborers drawn from the English Caribbean and Haiti." 

True. In Panama, and I presume the remainder of Central America, laws applying to the "Antillanos" did not apply to "Criollo" Blacks. Esmeraldas province Blacks, however, were largely descended from escaped slaves. My "digression" merely intended to point out that no part of the Americas was totally free of race bias. And the U.S. insistence of de jure institutionalization may have made it easier to recognize and remedy than the de facto racial prejudices common to Latin society.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 18:39
In Spanish Colonial times, perhaps by the influence of the church, the crown forbadde Blacks to intermarry with Indigenous people.
That is understandable from the Spanish perspective, because for them natives were subdits of the crown, no matter they were usually treated as teenagers.
 
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2009 at 21:56
While Show Boat started as a Ferber novel, it seems to me that the use of the theme in a musical comedy marked more of a breakthrough into popular consciousness than its appearance in book form. It's worth noting too that it didn't break through into a film until 1936, though there was an emasculated version filmed in 1929 that deleted the racial issue.
 
So - in 1929 Hollywood thought miscegenation couldn't be shown (and sympathised with) in a movie. By 1936 - the version with Paul Robeson - it apparently could, though the couple involved still meet with a tragic end.
 
For the record, the miscegenating couple were not Magnolia and Gaylord, but Julie Laverne and Steve Baker.


Edited by gcle2003 - 14-Jun-2009 at 21:57
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 13:37
I always think it was specifically black men and white woman parings that were verboten as opposed to white male and black female, though Lovings was such as case.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 14:53
Show Boat was white man/coloured woman.
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 18:51
The 1929 film has only "Old Man River" in common with the original 1927 Broadway musical since the music in the film was provided by Billy Rose; however, the role of a mulatto Julie Dozier was not excised from the original film but was totally ignored, and while it closely followed the Ferber novel with regard to Ravenal being a total cad it remains a travesty on Kern's marvelous libretto and the racial undercurrent that provides the dynamics of the original.
 
Please note how Ferber employed the surname "Dozier" so as to affirm Mississippi Delta origins...for the record, Jane La Verne played "Kim" and Alma Rubens was Julie Dozier the wife of Steve Baker, whose sole fault was being overly-friendly with Magnolia to the chagrin of her mother Parthie!


Edited by drgonzaga - 15-Jun-2009 at 18:56
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  Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2009 at 20:03

In the context on interracial love (between Black and White) in pictorial media one can notice that one of the first black - white kisses on American TV was a kiss between Captain Kirk (William Shatner) and Lieutenant Uhura (Nichelle Nichols) in a 1968 episode of Star Trek. It is said that some stations in the South originally refused to air the episode.

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 12:07
Originally posted by drgonzaga

The 1929 film has only "Old Man River" in common with the original 1927 Broadway musical since the music in the film was provided by Billy Rose;
 
Another Hollywood breakthrough was its first interracial kiss between Joan Fontaine and Harry Belafonte in Island in the Sun of 1957.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 16-Jun-2009 at 12:12
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 19:47
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by drgonzaga

The 1929 film has only "Old Man River" in common with the original 1927 Broadway musical since the music in the film was provided by Billy Rose;
 
The above comment is an example of why info from the Internet needs substantiation before full faith and credit can be applied. Yes, the blurb from IMDb does contain the proviso that it is creating an addendum of music based on CD recordings; however, what Rose did, beside writing "Here Comes the Showboat" was to substitute a whole series of other songs from traditional ditties to completely forgettable Tin Pan Alley tunes [as you can see from the listing--and this behaviour was typical of Rose in many of his own productions]. All existing recordings of the 1929 film do contain Old Man River, but not Can't Help Loving that Man, within the action. All of the other Kern-Hammerstein songs from the Broadway production cited by IMDb occur solely as background to the film's prologue or as theater exit music.
 
Interestingly enough, it was Rose who sought to bring order and credit to the music biz, for in 1931 he was one of the spearheads that established the Songwriters Protective Association (now the SGA) ensuring the integrity of original productions from such mishmash as the 1929 film. Note that while Kern and Hammerstein are uncredited, the film does credit Ferber and Ziegfeld, who did hold dramatico-musical production rights. Now, it should not surprise anyone that Rose could take the liberties he did in arranging the "music" for the film by introducing "older" tunes and ditties, since Kern himself did much the same in the 1927 stage production, most famously with Sousa's Washington Post March and Charles Harris' 1890 waltz, After the Ball and Joseph Howard's Goodbye My Lady Love. 
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 23:00
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by drgonzaga

The 1929 film has only "Old Man River" in common with the original 1927 Broadway musical since the music in the film was provided by Billy Rose;
 
The above comment is an example of why info from the Internet needs substantiation before full faith and credit can be applied. Yes, the blurb from IMDb does contain the proviso that it is creating an addendum of music based on CD recordings;
No it doesn't. It does the exact opposite - warns that CD recordings don't have all the songs. It is based on the soundtrack and states where in the film each song is played.
 however, what Rose did, beside writing "Here Comes the Showboat" was to substitute a whole series of other songs from traditional ditties to completely forgettable Tin Pan Alley tunes [as you can see from the listing--and this behaviour was typical of Rose in many of his own productions]. All existing recordings of the 1929 film do contain Old Man River, but not Can't Help Loving that Man, within the action. All of the other Kern-Hammerstein songs from the Broadway production cited by IMDb occur solely as background to the film's prologue or as theater exit music.
In other words they're on the film's soundtrack.
 
If Billy Rose 'provided the music' for the film, my question is still out there: 'Why wasn't he credited - apart from writing the lyric to one song?
 
When it came to songwriting, Rose was primarily a lyricist, and even in cases like Back In Your Own Backyard, where the music and lyrics credits are jointly attributed to him, Jolson, and Dryer, the suspicion is that Dryer did the music, Rose the lyric and Jolson was just piggy-backing for the ride.
 
Interestingly enough, it was Rose who sought to bring order and credit to the music biz, for in 1931 he was one of the spearheads that established the Songwriters Protective Association (now the SGA) ensuring the integrity of original productions from such mishmash as the 1929 film. Note that while Kern and Hammerstein are uncredited, the film does credit Ferber and Ziegfeld, who did hold dramatico-musical production rights.
The only credit for writing music is for Cherniavsky, which is why I was asking about Rose. Moreover the orchestrator, arranger and conductor are all different people.
Now, it should not surprise anyone that Rose could take the liberties he did in arranging the "music" for the film by introducing "older" tunes and ditties, since Kern himself did much the same in the 1927 stage production, most famously with Sousa's Washington Post March and Charles Harris' 1890 waltz, After the Ball and Joseph Howard's Goodbye My Lady Love. 
If Rose was the arranger why are Bennett and Vodery listed as orchestrator and arranger?
 
Also I don't understand why you put "music" and "older" in quotes. You may I suppose think that Tchaikovsky, for instance, doesn't warrant being called "music", but are you really suggesting that Washington Post March, After The Ball and Goodbye My Lady Love are not older than 1929?
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 16-Jun-2009 at 23:02
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