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In an Open Letter to Obama, 233 World Scholars...

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: In an Open Letter to Obama, 233 World Scholars...
    Posted: 31-May-2009 at 12:01
Originally posted by akritas

 
Dont play with the words. I repeat them -with blue fonts- again since you avoid some of my remarks.  I know that you are Bulgarian and not recognize  diffrent nationality and language -as Greece do- since you consider them as Bulgarian.
No, actually not. I do not consider them as Bulgarians. Not the modern ones. As for the rest, I still do mot understand your argument. Forgive me my stupidity.
 
 
I  spoke for Makedontsi or Makedonci as identified themselves in theirs language and not for the variants that you speak.
So, official name of the state -- Republic of Makedonia -- would be acceptable for you?
 
No they are not the same staff. That's why 248 World Professors  undersigned this letter because Miller avoid any sarcasm.
I think we agreed already that these 248 professors have no expertise on modern politics.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 14:27
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

I shall remind you Arnaiz-Villena  made  two  other similarities Greeks-Sub-Saharan and Japanese-Africans. Also 3 to 9  scientiets that  undersigned  Arnaiz-Villena  paper are  Slavmacedonians. However, it's no longer referenced by population geneticists in these contemporaries researches, mainly due to the criticism of Cavalli-Sforza that has the same academic range as some of the Classists that undersigned this letter.

 
Actually you are wrong, most of his works are still being cited very well by other colleagues. Regarding similarities of Japanese amd Africans -- I wouldn't cite this letter of Cavalli-Sforza frequently. It was a typical blackmailing, rather than critical review. Anyway, my comment was about his political comment that he made, something he has no expertise about. Here I see an analogy with the letter you have posted in this thread.
You are wrong again as usual.
 
 
furher details in the references since wiki is a source that anyone can edit but not the original ones.
 
 
 
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 14:42
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

 
Dont play with the words. I repeat them -with blue fonts- again since you avoid some of my remarks.  I know that you are Bulgarian and not recognize  diffrent nationality and language -as Greece do- since you consider them as Bulgarian.
No, actually not. I do not consider them as Bulgarians. Not the modern ones. As for the rest, I still do mot understand your argument. Forgive me my stupidity.
 
The noun "Macedonians"
 
-In FYROM the noun Macedonians (Makedonci – Makedontsi – in the local Slavic language) identifies, (a) in the legal sense, all citizens of the Republic (including Slavs, Albanians, Greeks, Roma etc), and (b) in the ethnic/national sense, a million and a half local Slavs.

-In Greece the noun Macedonians (Μακεδόνες – Makedones – in the Greek language) identifies, in the regional/cultural sense, almost two and a half million ethnic Greeks of the region of Greek Macedonia.

-In Bulgaria the same name Macedonians (Makedonci – Makedontsi – in Bulgarian) identifies, in the regional sense, hundreds of thousands of ethnic Bulgarian.

 
To complicate matters further, there is a fourth, historical dimension of the name Macedonians, which refers to the first "owners" of the name, i.e. the Greek-speaking people who inhabited roughly the region of present-day Greek Macedonia in classical times and identified themselves as Μακεδόνες (Makedones) in their Greek language.
 
The adjective "Macedonian"
 
The adjective Macedonian derives:
(a) from the noun of the geographical region Macedonia, and
(b) from the noun of the name of the people in its regional, ethnic, historical variants as described above. As such, the Macedonian adjective describes identities of persons (Macedonian community, minority, people, personalities), abstract values (Macedonian history, culture, traditions), institutions/associations (Macedonian administrative, scientific, professional, educational, civic, business/commercial, religious), as well as tangible objects and items (products, publications, etc).
 

In the Slavonic languages of FYROM and Bulgaria the adjective Macedonian, both in its ethnic and regional provenance is spelled in an identical form as makedonski. On the other hand, in the Greek language the same adjective Macedonian, in its regional/cultural/historical context, appears as makedonikos (-i or -o for the feminine and neuter endings).

Do you need more details or you still dont understand?

 

Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

 
I  spoke for Makedontsi or Makedonci as identified themselves in theirs language and not for the variants that you speak.
So, official name of the state -- Republic of Makedonia -- would be acceptable for you?
No and the reasons are written in the letter.
 
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas

 
No they are not the same staff. That's why 248 World Professors  undersigned this letter because Miller avoid any sarcasm.
I think we agreed already that these 248 professors have no expertise on modern politics.
The expertision in one subject doesnt mean no public opinion. These scholars expose the FYROM iredentism. Irredentism is simply to advocate the taking over (‘redeeming’) of a region (or regions) belonging to a (usually) neighbouring country based on some sort of justification that that region rightfully belongs to the irredentist’s country by virtue of one or more of a range of factors (cultural, historic, linguistic etc). It does not necessarily pre-suppose military or political action. The bone-heads masquerading as ancient Macedonians while dreaming of the "Edna Makedonija" of their Kanchevian maps – you know the one – can quite rightly be classed as irredentists. The majority of Slavmacedonians consider the bounds of this imagined homeland as rightfully theirs.

Edited by akritas - 31-May-2009 at 14:44
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 15:52
Originally posted by akritas

You are wrong again as usual.
 
 
furher details in the references since wiki is a source that anyone can edit but not the original ones.
 
 


I may be usually wrong but not in this case. Look in Google Scholar his citation index. It never stopped, this guy is still trusted by others.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 16:00
Originally posted by akritas


No and the reasons are written in the letter.


But these reasons are:
1. Doubtfull, as other scholars disagree with them (look for instance letter exchange posted by Chilbudios)
2. Has nothing to do with the discussed question.  Both groups of people used to call themselves like that for quite a while and there is no difference between 150-200 years and 2500.

 

"The majority of Slavmacedonians consider the bounds of this imagined homeland as rightfully theirs."


The way how democratically elected state acts points out that this is wrong.


Edited by Anton - 31-May-2009 at 16:02
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 17:56
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by akritas


No and the reasons are written in the letter.


But these reasons are:
1. Doubtfull, as other scholars disagree with them (look for instance letter exchange posted by Chilbudios)
2. Has nothing to do with the discussed question.  Both groups of people used to call themselves like that for quite a while and there is no difference between 150-200 years and 2500.

 

"The majority of Slavmacedonians consider the bounds of this imagined homeland as rightfully theirs."


The way how democratically elected state acts points out that this is wrong.

I didn’t see any opposite response of other scholars with the academic range of Ian Worthington, Malcolm Errington , Paul Cartledge  and many others. When I see it (if there is any scholar) then we can compare them. Chilbudios post a diffrent letter with diffrent subject , diffrent receiver and the most important diffrent undersignings.

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 18:59
I think Greeks and those Europeans who love the ancient Greeks should expand their minds and don't limit themselves to ancient times, many things have been happened in the last 2,000 years, modern country of Macedonia in the north of Greece can be compared with the Republic of Azerbaijan in the north of Iran, this part of ancient Persia was never called Azerbijan, but Arran (Caucasian Albania), the real Azerbaijan was/is located in the south of it in the northwest of Modern Iran, and the people never spoke Turkish Azeri language, there are still some people in Azerbaijan of Iran who speak Iranian Azeri (Tati) language, but the fact is that Turkish peoples migrated to this region, the name of Azerbaijan was applied to a larger region and many other things happened in the last 1,000 years, so no one can already say "Azerbaijan" is a wrong name and the people of this country shouldn't call themselves "Azeri".
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 19:21
Originally posted by Anton

There is nothing controversial in his methodology, Filipp, even though not everybody agrees with his conclusions. Besides, there is no agreement among scholars between ethnicity of Ancient Macedonians and you know it very well.  So, even in this respect both cases are similar. But once again my major point was that both Arnaiz-Villena and Miller made a political comment which is unacceptable for a scientist. With some obvious exceptions of course.


We've agreed on the political comment.

The controversial methodology is that only one chromosome was used when more are required for a safe conclusion.

No scientist other than Villena have come to such a conclusion, while what Miller suggests represents 1 of the 2 school of thoughts on that matter. There's a big difference in that case.

Originally posted by Anton


1. Doubtfull, as other scholars disagree with them (look for instance letter exchange posted by Chilbudios)


Yes, but look what Miller said about secondary sources. The other guy is not a good example eather.

"If I were a betting man, I would offer a bottle of that wonderful Nemean wine to anyone who can find another Greek satrap (huparchos) in Herodotus, but I'm not, and I may be wrong."

I would gladly drink that wine if i had that discussion with him. But if i were him i would double check and not take a chance in case Miller wouldn't verify my saying. He obviously missed Histaios, Artemisia and Kyberniskos.




Edited by Flipper - 31-May-2009 at 23:02


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 21:29
Originally posted by Flipper


The controversial methodology is that only one chromosome was used when more are required for a safe conclusion.
He answered in his resopnse to Cavali-Sforza's letter that 1) it is quite a common practice and 2) that they are testing other markers in his lab.
 

No scientist other than Villena have come to such a conclusion, while what Miller suggests represents 1 of the 2 school of thoughts on that matter. There's a big difference in that case.
 
There are some studies on similarities between Palestinian Arabs  and Jews. Look for instance the following ones:
 
 
 
If you don't have access to this article (they find not only similarities but also differences) here is their conclusion:
 

According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Moslem Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD (Shaban 1971; Mc Graw Donner 1981). These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992). On the other hand, the ancestors of the great majority of present-day Jews lived outside this region for almost two millennia. Thus, our findings are in good agreement with historical evidence and suggest genetic continuity in both populations despite their long separation and the wide geographic dispersal of Jews.

Look also citations therein.
 
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 21:38
One more eminent scholar add in the list. Is the Guy MacLean Rogers, writer of the "Alexander:The ambiquity of Greatnes" and  editor of "Black Athena Revisited".
Forthe list of cosigners that has grown to 249 see the  Addenda.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 22:12
Anton the point is that not many experts in the field believe that Greeks are related to Ethiopia. Contrary what you should consider is that people in warm countries, with different backgrounds develop similar chromosomes because of the environment and not because of common ancestry. All you need to do is to ask a doctor within your circle.

I do not need to repeat the same things all over again. Millers possition is not some new or controversial. Everyone, does not need to agree with Miller's possition, but a number of scholars do.


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 22:56

Flipper, we misunderstood each other. I meant Villena's work regarding comparison of Jews and Arabs. This one was ooposed by number of scholars like Cavalli-Sforza etc. In this publication he wrote political comment and this one was retracted after some time.

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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 23:02
Ok, got it Smile


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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2010 at 15:13
Boy oh Boy! What a great collection of posts by persons of great knowlege and with a great burst of nationalism by many of them! It literally blows my small mind!

But one post (quite early however) seems to me to get to the "meat" of the problem(s)!

It is this;

"Children are more mature than those god damned nationalists.

Al-Jassas"

Certainly the Balkan problem(s) is/are mostly a matter of nationalism!

As a great Jewish American radio personality has said for years the only thing any nation should expect their government to do for them is to respect; "Borders, Language, and culture!"

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Michael-Savage-Borders-Language-Culture/123040616847

Perhaps it is a mostly modern invention that seems to want to let the entire world to Balkanize itself into a world of ten thousand individual nations, with there own; "Borders, language, and culture!"

A sad world awaits us if this format is allowed to continue! Assimilation seems to have worked well for the most part, only in the USA!

At least until the present day!

Just how long will it be until Americans are forced to vote, with their feet? Segregation is only now being re-implemented, by various Liberal, Socialist, and Progressive groups! Instead of "out of many, One!", we are now being led down a line, ending in "Out of one, Many!"

Very sad!

But, indeed it seems this is the "World to Come!"


Edited by opuslola - 28-May-2010 at 15:33
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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