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What did the Romans steal from the Greeks?

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What did the Romans steal from the Greeks?
    Posted: 16-Jan-2012 at 19:27
I'm sceptical about the idea of Greeks having Egyptian blood. How come there few negroid features depicted in surviving Greek statues?
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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  Quote Fula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2012 at 08:56
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

Well, I'd take a vast amount of issue with those - firstly, the conception of "Greece" as being what is the country today is essentially an anachronism - "Greece" extended across the medditeranian to southern France, Italy, Sicily and Spain. Although clearly, there is a "Greece proper", the Peloponnese, Delphi, Ionia and Attica for example, in ancient sources, the idea that the Romans developed as a seperate people with a distinct cultural identity is a little flawed. Obviously, the Romans, Etruscans and Latins do differ vastly in many respects from 5th century Greeks, but it is important to emphasise that, even in the mysterious years of the early kingdom (e.g. the forum burials etc) an obvious amount of Greek influence can be seen. The term "steal" is emotivist and rather downplays your argument - one of the earlier examples that we have of the interchange of these cultures is sources - from Livy, but obviously questionable - is the reputed journey of the Decimvirs to Athens to get advice which would later be incorporated into the ten tables. Even before the Gallic invasion of 390/389 BC, Roman military forces and even society were largely similar to Greek models in some respects, but with some major differences. The very eytemology of many Italian cities - Neapolis for example - are clearly Greek, and under Perikles, in the mid 5th century an Athenian colony was created at Thurii in Italy. Sicilian history is marked with the invasions of the Carthagians against the Greek city states (repulsed at Himera in 480 BC) - the famous c.470 statue of the Delphic charioteer - one of the prime examples of bronze-casting in early Classical art, was dedicated by a Sicilian tyrant. Moreover, Roman temples were markedly different in many crucial respects (e.g. no Opisthodomos, numerous Adytons (second Naoi), a unique take on the Corinthian style and a tendency towards increased amount of Acroterioi). The term "steal" is simply derogatory - the fact that, even before there was a concerted Roman military occupation in Greece to counter the Selecuid and Antigonid threat, Roman theatre and comedy was flourishing under those such as Plautus, is evidence enough - there is even evidence of earlier playwrights before the Pyhrric wars for god's sake! I don't want to sound insulting, but I feel that you somewhat underestimate the fluidity of ancient culture and the joint literary heritage of the "two peoples", if, until the Hellenistic period at least, we can make such a vast distinction. However, that said, it is naturally true to say that the Italian preoccupation with ethnically based leagues politically shows us a rather different concept of power in Italy when we compare this with Greece, in which such Federalism was to emerge in the 2nd century, and even then amongst the pseudo-Greeks such as the Phocians and Locrians. I would strongly direct you to read up a little more on the subject.
 
"Greece" extended across the medditeranian to southern France, Italy, Sicily and Spain. Shocked" I never heard of this connection? Do you think you could share where you heard or read this? 
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2012 at 16:49
This might interest you, fula.Smile

Ancient Greek colonization began at an early date, during the so-called Geometric period of about 900 to 700 B.C.(74.51.965), when many seminal elements of ancient Greek society were also established, such as city-states, major sanctuaries, and the Panhellenic festivals. The Greek alphabet, inspired by the writing of the Phoenician sea traders, was developed and spread at this time.
Greece is a country surrounded by water and the sea has always played an important role in its history. The ancient Greeks were active seafarers seeking opportunities for trade and founding new independent cities at coastal sites across the Mediterranean Sea. By the seventh and sixth centuries B.C., Greek colonies and settlements stretched all the way from western Asia Minor to southern Italy, Sicily, North Africa, and even to the coasts of southern France and Spain. Regional schools of artists exhibited a rich variety of styles and preferences at this time. The major Ionian cities along the coast of Asia Minor prospered (21.169.1). They cultivated relationships with other affluent centers like Sardis in Lydia (14.30.9), which was ruled by the legendary King Croesus in the sixth century B.C. Indeed, by this time, the eastern Greeks controlled much of the Aegean Sea and had established independent cities to the north along the Black Sea. This region, in particular, opened up further trade connections to the north that gave access to valuable raw materials, such as gold.

Trading stations played an important role as the furthest outposts of Greek culture. Here, Greek goods, such as pottery, bronze, silver and gold vessels, olive oil, wine, and textiles, were exchanged for luxury items and exotic raw materials that were in turn worked by Greek craftsmen. The Greeks established trading enclaves within existing local communities in the Levant, such as at Al Mina. In the Nile Delta, the port town of Naukratis (1972.118.142) served as a commercial headquarters for Greek traders in Egypt.

Likewise, well-established maritime trade routes around the Mediterranean basin enabled foreigners to travel to Greece. In the seventh century B.C., contacts with itinerant eastern craftsmen, notably on Crete and Cyprus, inspired Greek artists to work in techniques as diverse as gem cutting, ivory carving, jewelry making, and metalworking. After the unprecedented military campaign of Alexander the Great (r. 336–323B.C.), more extensive trade routes were opened across Asia, extending as far as Afghanistan and the Indus River Valley. These new trade routes introduced Greek art to cultures in the East, and also exposed Greek artists to a host of artistic styles and techniques, as well as precious stones. Garnets, emeralds, rubies, and amethysts were incorporated into new types of Hellenistic jewelry, more stunning than ever before. In the ensuing centuries, the Greeks continued to live in these eastern regions, but always maintained contact with the Greek mainland. East Greek artists also emigrated to Etruria, where they settled at Caere, an Etruscan city on the Italian coast (64.11.1).

On the other hand, the Greek colonies in Sicily and southern Italy, a region known as Magna Graecia, comprised politically independent entities that maintained religious ties and trade links with their mother cities. Up until the mid-sixth century B.C., Corinth dominated trade in the West. For the most part, it exported Corinthian vases (06.1021.18), which were often filled with olive oil, in return for grain. Some city-states, such as Syracuse and Selinus in Sicily, erected major temples that rivaled those in the eastern part of Greece. Unlike the Aegean islands and mainland Greece, where marble was plentiful, Sicily and southern Italy had few local sources of high-quality marble. Thus, the artists in Magna Graecia established a strong tradition of working with terracotta and limestone (22.139.56). Many of the colonies in the West minted their own silver coins with distinctive designs and emblems.

As a predominant naval force in the latter part of the sixth and fifth centuries B.C., Athens exerted its influence over sea trade. Athenian pottery was widely exported, especially to Etruria and to the colonies in southern Italy, where it inspired local imitations. In the Hellenistic period, Syracuse dominated much of Sicily, and local artistic styles flourished. Particularly ornate sculptural and painted vases were produced at Centuripe. By this time, Syracuse as a cosmopolitan city rivaled any other in the Greek world. It boasted major temples, as well as civic buildings and monuments. In fact, the theater at Syracuse—one of the largest ever built in antiquity—continues to be a celebrated destination for dramatic performances. In 272 B.C., the Romans conquered Magna Graecia, and Sicily came under Roman rule when Syracuse fell to Rome in 212 B.C. As a result, the newly conquered western Greek colonies played an important role as the transmitters of Greek culture to the Romans and the rest of the Italian peninsula.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/angk/hd_angk.htm


What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2012 at 04:07
Fula,all around Med sea area were "Greek" colonies also others.In ancient period there were not wars with more than 200000-300000 active soldiers from both sides.If those had fought not mated all around how could be exchanged ethnic card of territories?This approaches in history are absurds and non logical.Easy could be changed ethnicity,cause of force&better position/conditions,than people had vanished.This is my opinion about it.Further polemics about it are useless.

Edited by medenaywe - 18-Jan-2012 at 07:19
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  Quote Fula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2012 at 07:03
Thanks for the info guys...I actually learned something
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  Quote andy4675 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 16:28
There is a mistake. You cannot talk of stealing something in the world of progress. You better say, thet Greek were the great teachers, whome the Romans never managed to overcome in the field of the cultural rise. And, as I know, "a good student always have to owercome his teacher".
 
As of the greatness of Phidias sculptures. Hmmm... Never saw any sculpture of Phidias... Of course, we know how much ancient Greeks appreciated his works of gold and elephant bone (Athenas of the Acropolis of Athens and most of all Zeus of Olympia). But we don't have anything except some pictures of them, and their description (like the one made by Pausanias in his work "Eladdos Periigisis").
What I mean, is that Greeks from the ancient times likes fairytales. It's not good, nor practical. Ancient Corinthians had warm debates over the beauty of hetaera Laida over 500 years after she died. Their believe made Pausanias to mention it in his work.
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 16:47
Who did tell you about it?Ancient documents you have used were copies no older than 1000 years!?!If it is than Aliens had come and occupied Earth than wrote all about History before:How could be used those copy&paste documents about real truth about our history?That's really had happened cause after Egypt felt 30B.C.,pasted 1622 years with Rome&Byzantine and a lot with Turks till now?!?We do really not know who is the persons near us and their origins and you are talking about "Greeks"&"Romans".Find me document elder than 2000 years that uses words "Greeks" inside?History as we know it today was refurbished during Byzantine&Charlemagne Empires and screenplay writers belonged in same history kitchen.
P.S.I know they use "Predator's" camuflaje cause they have sold it to movie producers!Clown

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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 18:31
Cultures don't steal from each other, they exchange, learn, elaborate of what they learned, change the way things were thought of - in one stream along the timeline and around the map, that goes with intermarriage, relocations, migrations, etc. You cut the historical flow in little chunks so we can study them better, but we have to remember that those chunks are only our constructs, the reality of the historical development is a flow, not a clear-cut lines.

The Romans learned many things from the Greeks, borrowed their style in the fine plastic arts, literature, drama and poetry, and the whole philosophic schools; and added to this great developments in architecture, the portraiture in art; they fused the Roman religion with the Greek one, adding to that Anatolian, Middle Eastern and Egyptian divinities - hence, religions symbiosis. Non eof that can be called "stealing", this is just how cultures flow into each other.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 18:31
Originally posted by andy4675

There is a mistake. You cannot talk of stealing something in the world of progress. 
I think that probably the term stealing is an unfortunate phrase to use for what the Romans did.
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  Quote andy4675 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2012 at 18:34
I understand, you are a teacher of an alternative history of some kind?
I have met many of this kind on Russian forums (Andreas Churilow and elcano - people defending the medieval nature of Pompei and non-existence of the ancient world were some of them). Till now I made them fled. Even if they don't hear otherpeoples arguments, and continuously talks of their own.
The most ancient text on pergament (because I know how skeptical is Alternative History about such material as papyros - so I don't mention Oxyryghos papyri) is the one found in Dura-Europos, with dating of 195 BC. This is the agreement of Aristonaks.
About Greeks wrote Herodotus (his books, alone with those of Strabo, helped once to uncover and name many ancient Greek cities on the Black sea coasts), Thukydides and Xenophon, also Arrianus and Curtius Rufus, about Romans Polybius, Julius Caesar, Titus Livius, Tacitus, Plutarch, Strabo, Suetonius, Plinius the Elder, Plinius the Younger, Ammianus Marcellinus, Priscus. And this is only few hisorical or geographical works. Also existed poetry, such as Homer, lyrics, Alexandrians, Vergilius, Horatius. Also ancient philosophs and scientists (Plato, Aristotle, Hero from Alexandria).
 
Answer to yourself a question: who made all these copies of Plato and Tacitus and Caesar between 900 - 1500 AD? Why they made theese copies? (making money doesn't work: nobody would expect to sell some homemade and unknown "Plato" or "Xenophon"). Who and why build all these ancient cities on places mentioned by copies made by catholic monks? When they were builded?
Of course, you can always say, that this is all a big game of mistification of humanity made by Popes, or masons or somebody else. But do you really believe it?
If Parmenion is a trator, then whom to believe? But if he is not, then what to do? - Antipatros
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 11:27
That's right question:Who&Why did it history as we use today?You have a lot of that here in our forum just browse it Andy!Big smile
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  Quote andy4675 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 12:29
I have read Fomenko books more than enough for me to see where the trouth is. Everything is a big lie in that books. He uses Greek words in etruscan inscriptions to say that it was russian (et-russian, as he states). About the city of Pompei I had a long conversation with Alternate historians. They don't listen the other people's arguments, they continue to say the same things: Romans did not use bricks, Pompei is mentioned by an inscription of 17-th century saying about it's catastrophe then, and not in 79 AD. Plinius letters were a lie of the 16-th century, Dio Cassius works exists only in the Byzantintine works of Ioannis Tzetzes et else. They were liers, wished to mistify the western world. There is maps with Pompei and Herculano on it in the 16-th century an earlier (say, Peutinger map). In the late 16-th century the city were found durinf ingeneer working of Fontana. I made their curiosity vanish, answering to everything. But then they starts again by asking the same things. And we did it over and over many times, till they got away...
What is it in the alternate history? Tell me your theory. Who made the world? Aliens, maybe?
If Parmenion is a trator, then whom to believe? But if he is not, then what to do? - Antipatros
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 12:37
It is not Russian but "Ancient Egyptian"&"Ancient Greek".But that's a different story,I am working on it.
Have a nice time here Andy and remember:Forum&Agora have always been places where people exchange
their opinions without obvious agreement from both sides at the End.I am pleased you do not agree with me but thats my opinion.Big smile
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  Quote andy4675 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2012 at 12:51
I don't agree with you, but I would die to make you express your opinion freely - says the Classic.
If Parmenion is a trator, then whom to believe? But if he is not, then what to do? - Antipatros
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  Quote Louise C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2012 at 02:43
'steal' seems a rather odd word to use in this context.  The Romans probably got some ideas from the Greeks, but using the ideas of another culture doesn't seem to me to amount to stealing.  It's imitation rather than theft.
 
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2012 at 03:14
Apt. And or assimilation.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote Drusin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2012 at 12:25
Ahhh... but what did the Greeks steel? Smile
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  Quote Drusin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2012 at 12:28
I do agree with the comment about theft being more and exchange of ideas.  The Greeks did not come up with much.  Their mathematicians were sent to Egypt in Antiquity for education.  The Egyptians were also borrowing ideas and technologies.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2012 at 12:49
Originally posted by Drusin

Ahh... but what did the Greeks steel? Smile
 
Check their interaction with the Romans, Egyptians, Phoenicians, the Persians and others. Especially the trade-commercial, military and cultural aspects of it...prior to the colonization by the first.
 
 
 
There is always a review of Alexander and ultimately their activities along the Silk Road.
 
 
 
 
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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Drusin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2012 at 16:09
Thank you Centrix for sharing the links, I'm off to read them now!
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