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Sino-Japanese relations through history.

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Gubook Janggoon View Drop Down
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sino-Japanese relations through history.
    Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 04:31
How else would Hideyoshi have attained the cap if it wasn't a gift from the Ming court?  I'd like to see your source that the hat he's wearing in the painting was actually given to him by the Ming.  Could someone also provide a date on the painting?  This may have been painted pre or post war, so that may explain a part of your question.  That last part I don't really get.  Could you clarify?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 20:35
Ironicly, this penchant for superior/inferior ranking of the world was one of the things Japan imported from China while it was learning from the Confuscian Chinese prior to the 1600's . . . failure to grasp the world in all its dimensions and hence pluralism but preferring a linear order was one of the trade marks of Confuscianism.
 
Japan was settled relatively late by old world standards.  Unified Japan did not take place until after Mongo invasion, which had a severely tramatic impact on Japanese psyche, not unlike the Japanese invasion of China in the 20th century had on Chinese psyche.  That's why Japan was obsessed with seeing to it that the continental hordes never sail down from the Korean pennisula again to conqure Japan.  Japan turned into a unitary state for that purpose, just like China got rid off worlordism after Japanese invasion in the 20th century, and going backwards, France got its own centralized government after the 100-year war enduring what later historians paid by the French government would consider invasion by England.
 
After the Japanese warring state period in the 14th through 16th century, Hideyoshi finally unified Japan.   He then had a huge surplus army with nothing to do, the same problem Mao had after Chinese Civil War.  Mao's solution was throwing that element of potential social instability into the meat grinder that was called Korean War . . . Hideyoshi too found Korea to be the perfect place to get rid of his surplus warriors . . . with some ridiculous design of world domination.  Even Hideyoshi probably knew that there was no way Japan could conqure the world . . . not the least because Hideyoshi's own mentor Nobunaga's success was largely built on imported Portugese aquebus.
 
The first disturbance in the Japanese attitude towards China as something high in the superior/inferior ranking system came with the Mongol Invasion.  Mongols conqured China but failed to conqure Japan.  It was only a relatively small disturbance because China overthrew their Mongol overlords in little over half a century.  What really killed Japanese perception of China came after Manchu conquest of China . . . and China's collaborationist co-existence with the conquror for hundreds of years.  After that, Japan pursued its own closed door policy until Commodore Perry forced Japan open to international trade. 
 
BTW, up till the 16th century Japan was the primary supplier of monetary silver to China.  So they had very close relationship.  With the arrival of Spanish galleons carrying silver from south america to the Phillipines, they trade between Japan and China became increasingly carried out by Portugese, Spanish and Dutch merchants  . . . especially as both asian countries pursued closed door policies.
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 21:51
Interesting analysis on when Japan's perception of China started to change (from admiration to condescension). I personally would push the timeline for that happening much later - after the Meiji Restoration.
 
Brightness, could you provide some more concrete evidence that supports your arguments that Japanese attitude towards China started to change:
(1) After the successful Mongol invasion of China
(2) After the Manchu conquest
Or are those arguments just speculations of yours?
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2006 at 09:46
The change in Japanese attitude after Mongol invasion was not condescension towards Chinese per se, but the realization that out of that continent could come not only cultural enlightenment (like the Tang period and Song period) but also mortal threat.  Mongol occupation of southern China was relatively short, so it did not damage Japanese perception of China all that much.  Japan was always more closely linked to southern China than northern China.  In any case, Japan was mired in couple hundreds years of civil war of unification after the Mongols, similar to China prior to 221BC.  In fact, Japanese calls the period "Sengoku Jidai," exactly the same kanji for the Chinese Warring State period prior to 221BC.  Of course, instead of bronze age weapons, Japanese were fighting with firearms in their Warring State Period one and a half millinia later. 
 
The Manchu conquest of China however became entirely different.  For two reasons:
 
(1) Chinese seem to have made long-term peace with their Manchu overlords;
 
(2) Tokugawa Bakufu was established in Japan not long after Manchu conquest of China.  The newly centralized Japanese government pursued closed door policy and actively promoted its own cultural superiority over China, theorizing that the contemporary China was no longer run by the Chinese blood of the classical period . . . and that Japan was the true inheritor of Chinese civilization.   The term "slaves from a dead state" (wang guo nu) came to describe Chinese under Manchu rule.
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  Quote Hando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 12:02
Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

In the same token, some (I hate to generalize) do feel that if you are not my superior, I must be yours attitude.  This is most prevailing with their feelings about Koreans.  Man, if you think they look down on China, ask them about Korea.


I totally diasgree. I teach Japanese, Korean and Chinese students as a TESOL teacher. I have to say that the Japanese get along better and treat the Korean classmates with more respect than they do the Chinese. Maybe, your generalization is due to expeirences you have had, but in my experience the Japanese totally look down at the Chinese and have more respect for their Korean counterparts.
The Japanese and Korean students always hang out together outside of class, but the Japanese students dont really have much to do with the Chinese students.

Once during a student party, a drunk Japanese girl told everyone she was not Chinese and that she would rather be called Korean, but please never to call her Chinese.
I was not present but was told this by a fellow teacher.
Such sentiments only confirm for me the racism behind the way thr Japanese treated the Chinese as opposed to the way they treated the Koreans.
Both were treated bad, but the Chinese were treated more like animals.


Edited by Hando - 02-Sep-2006 at 12:12
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  Quote Gun Powder Ma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 12:30
Japan profited culturally immensely from China, and China was thankful that Japan almost never got its act together to produce a viable military threat at China's soft belly. With and after the Imjin War, Japan got even more introspective than China, but still managed to made itself somehow the most advanced East Asian society by the time of the arrival of the black ships. The result was a headstart in modernity on everybody else in its neighbourhood and the rest is history.
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  Quote Hando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 01:01
Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

I think there is a love hate relationship between Japan and China.  There is a certain amount of respect reflected by Japan's adaptation of Chinese culture & incorporating it into their own.  I know Japanese students who know far far more about Chinese history (Including Romance of the Three Kingdoms) and my Chinese counterparts.  In the same token, some (I hate to generalize) do feel that if you are not my superior, I must be yours attitude.  This is most prevailing with their feelings about Koreans.  Man, if you think they look down on China, ask them about Korea.



Ohhh please...Nice try, but its very telling and obvious what your trying to do.

You see, the truth cannot be hidden by your pathetic but very telling and obvious attempts. You are trying to make others think that the Japanese think the Chinese are superior to Koreans? That the Japanese look down on the Koreans more than they do on the Chinese? Ohh please. I dont think so and you know it too.

No one believes that. Not even white people.

The Japanese always tried to pursuade the subjugated Koreans that Koreans and Japanese were the same race. On the other hand, the Japanese thought the Chinese were Vermin/Animals and so they just tried to eliminate them with mass murder and they raped, did scientific testing and used a lot of brutality on the Chinese. Way way more than they did towards the Koreans, because the Japanese tried to at least assimilate the Koreans who they felt were related to them, while they tried to genocide the Chinese. They didt care about the Chinese at all. Not one bit. You know what I am talking about.

Even whites feel this way. When my white friends want to tease a Korean, they tease him by saying he is chinese, although they know he is Korean. So even to them, the Chinese are lower than Koreans. Its an unsaid but firmly believed opinion with everyone around the world.

So it is already known that Japanese look down more on the Chinese than they did on the Koreans.

So try your devious, but tellingly unsuccesful Chinese attempts at trying to create your lies and illusions, another way. We all know how your type operate.

The Japanese have done so much to increase the west's respect for Asia, but this has been futile, because the Chinese have embarassed the Asians for every good thing the Japanese have done for us. The Chinese ar an embarrassment to Asians. Everybody knows this, so don't even try to put down Koreans. It aint working.
I'd rather be Puerto Rican than a delivery boy. I'm outta here and won;t be visiting this post or any other ones.

Goodbye.
I am done wasting my time here with morons like you who make me sick.


Edited by Hando - 19-Oct-2006 at 01:08
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 15:45
Hando, the tone of your post is totally unacceptable and clearly violate AE Codes of Conduct. To the best of my recollection, it is not the first time you made this kind of statement. In this post, you not only insulted the Chinese people and the Puerto Rican people. You also insulted your OWN people by showing the ugliest side of bigotry, hatred, and ethnic intolerance.
 
I remember you are a teacher (or at least you claim yourself to be one). Imagine those kids whose parents have entrusted you to educate them - kids of various ethnic descent, Chinese, Puerto Rican, kids whose parents may work for delivery. How do you face them if they had the chance to read your post and saw the real you?
 
You should be absolutely ashamed of yourself and disgusted by your own behaviour.
 
Consider yourself getting an official warning. Angry 
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 18:53
And they let him loose on students............
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 19:45
Originally posted by Hando

  
Goodbye.
I am done wasting my time here with morons like you who make me sick.
 
Since Mr. Hando has already declared his disinterest in hanging out with us "morons" here, we have decided to make his life even easier for banning him from AE.
 
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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 03:54
Originally posted by Paul

And they let him loose on students............
 
Be afraid, be very afraid...
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  Quote TMPikachu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 17:24
Originally posted by MengTzu

Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

The Chinese have an more American or individualistic attitude about everything.  That can be a good and bad thing. 

No way.  The Chinese have a kind of "collective individualism."  There's is a Chinese saying, "every family sweeps the snow in front of its own house."  It is still not individualism, it's clanishness, if you will.  Chinese people are clicky, whether the cliques are families or groups of friends.  Each group takes care of its own, refusing to have greater integration.  Of course, I'm generalizing as well.



So do Americans. Example such as Fraternety groups that develope in college who then help each other later in life, political parties

and of course sports, a very serious serious business Smile

Originally posted by brightness

(2) Tokugawa Bakufu was established in Japan not long after Manchu conquest of China.  The newly centralized Japanese government pursued closed door policy and actively promoted its own cultural superiority over China, theorizing that the contemporary China was no longer run by the Chinese blood of the classical period . . . and that Japan was the true inheritor of Chinese civilization.   The term "slaves from a dead state" (wang guo nu) came to describe Chinese under Manchu rule.


I hadn't heard of this before, what source did you get this from?

From the little contact I've had with Japanese, I asked on pretty much the question "so what's Japanese opinion on China" he said something along the lines of " We borrowed stuff in the past, but the political identity today isn't the same"


Edited by TMPikachu - 20-Oct-2006 at 17:49
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  Quote intem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 23:33

hmmm........ I smell some ultranationalistic agenda from this hando guy. I'll take a guess that he's a korean nationalists, as he replied with a bad tone about chinese people looking down at the koreans.

Its ashamed that he firmly claimed himself as a teacher as he has racial problems with other ethnics such as the chinese as he seems to be more aggressive towards to. I wonder how he became a teacher? He doesn't seem knowledgable at all.
 
Just a reminder to anyone who has children to be aware to this kind of person when sending your child to be educated by such shameless person and rather uneducated person if i should say it.
J.T.I.J
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  Quote skylance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 23:28
for God's sake,even poorest or  humblest Chinese never take korea seriously.me to.China completely ignores the existence of Korea for 2000 years untill now.
but I really like ancient Japanese culture and history,I am a fan of Oda NubunagaLOL,Japan really developed a kind of bloody and elegant culture of itself after importing ancient China civilzation systemly.
if they frankly face their war crimes in WW2,I will love even modern Japanese  too.
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  Quote Easternknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 19:58
Guess this is why Flying Zone created the
reality of Aggressive nationalism of China and Korea thread.
 
"for God's sake,even poorest or  humblest Chinese never take korea seriously.me to.China completely ignores the existence of Korea for 2000 years untill now".
I don't suppose you actually have any real proof supporting this? I'll be waiting for a serious response.
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  Quote skylance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 20:57
Originally posted by Easternknight

Guess this is why Flying Zone created the
reality of Aggressive nationalism of China and Korea thread.
 
"for God's sake,even poorest or  humblest Chinese never take korea seriously.me to.China completely ignores the existence of Korea for 2000 years untill now".
I don't suppose you actually have any real proof supporting this? I'll be waiting for a serious response.


that's simple reality,comparing with the influence from modern western and Japan,influence from ancient nomadic tribes ,and influence from ancient India,what Korea had brought to China?

I don't want to argue what China had brought to Korea,I just want to see these Koreans could give me a little reasonable history of themselves since 2000 years ago,stop dreaming and lying,ok?
 Japan was even barbarian tribes  in  about 3th century AD,but now it stands as one of the greatest nations with unique and attractive culture,doesn't it?


Edited by skylance - 31-Oct-2006 at 21:05
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  Quote skylance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 21:36
and I am far away from any "agressive nationalism",only ignorant young chinese boys could be called "agressive nationalism",so I think this word is completely meaningless.the core of modern chinese nationalism is to protect chinese dignity and national profits.
Americans want too much,Japanese try to erase his dirty in past century,we all know these simple things.
that's why modern chinese nationalism exits.

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 21:52
AE do not need people like skylance polluting our space. Angry
 
He has been banned without any official warning because he has made fewer than 10 posts.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 22:19
lol Modern Chinese Nationalism exists because Chinese people exist. Give me a break.
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 22:33

I think that is an unfair generalization. I don't think the Chinese people are on average more or less "nationalistic" than people of other nationalities. While my personal opinion towards nationalism is rather low, I think some degree of nationalism is acceptable (and is inevitable too). What really concerns me is extreme or aggressive nationalism, and that is definitely not a monopolistic characteristic of the Chinese. It is everywhere, evident even in a small community like AE. That's actually what most of the bans are about.

When one accuses the Chinese of being more "nationalistic" than other nationalities, is one guilty of making a biased statement oneself too?

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