Gotvandi (Dezfuli), Guti and Gothic

I've read thinking it was a recent thread, whilst half-way through I realized it was from two years ago, and that someone had resurrected it from certain death, and I feel obliged to answer, since reading it all for about 3 hours straight made be think 

Edited by TheNode - 06-Feb-2011 at 11:23

http://vieilleeurope.wordpress.com/2011/01/11/signs-out-of-time-the-story-of-archaeologist-marija-gimbutas/

Dear Cyrus! Often I have offered you a solution to your problems with the old smart asses of this site! But, you just do not seem able to even consider such!

As other historians and pseudo-historians like Thor Hyderdahl, have mentioned, there seems to have been a legend amongst the Norse (Vikings) suggesting that they originated in the East, and later came to the N. West! Or, that they came from the North and struck out to the East and South East, and later returned to the N. West, etc.!

For you as well as those not lamented prior enemies of you, who proliferate this very thread, it is time and space which makes one of you or all of you look foolish! That is you all depended upon the currently accepted version of the past!

Just throw out the modern "dating schemes", and assume, as has the Fomenko Group, that there exists no real evidence, in written form, concerning the ancient past before the 8th or 9th centuries CE! And further consider that the real evidence found in written form (ignoring most all of those occurences whereby "ancient sources" are merely "menioned" or "quoted" without any simblance of evidence, other that here-say, "assumption", or mostly "ancedotal", or even "forged", etc.!

But, whilst my views concerning your views are mostly in concurrence, as opposed by those long dead "friends" who ganged up on you, then you can either ignore me or follow them!

I will readily assume your intentions are more inclined towards those old enemies of yours?

I would suggest, as you tried to suggest, that "Mohammad-Ali Ramin, Presidential Advisor", etc., could walk amongst all of the nations of Scandanivia, and never be given a second look! If he was seen commiting some crime, the witnesses could only describe him as "typical!"


Regards as always!

Edited by opuslola - 07-Jan-2011 at 20:09

http://aleximreh.wordpress.com/2011/01/05/similarity-between-vinca-hungarian-runic-signs-and-signs-found-inside-the-bosnian-pyramids-older-than-egypt-pyramids/

While this post of mine should belong in the "alternative history" section, I could not help but suggest an "alternative" response!

Assuming the view of a typical believer in the propositions made by Anatole Fomenko, and company, that the Christ, what ever he was, and whomever he was, actually existed somewhere in the currently accepted dating system, as "1000 CE to 1300 CE", then any date considered as "BC" or Before Christ" must by necessity be moved upwards in time by a thousand years or more!

Actually, at times, the Fomenko Group, would suggest that certain part of our consensualy agreeded upon history should be moved closer to our current era by almost 1,800 years! (most of these movements seem to belong to certain Biblical reports however, these actions are also curently connected to parallel events in other areas.)

So, to state that something is now dated as 1,450 BCE, would, under the Fomenko theory, only remove them to somewhere in the past, which would be considered as minus 500 to -200 years "Before Christ(BC)!", which would correlate (in our current system) to AD or CE, 700 to AD or CE, to 900 to 1100 CE or AD!

I hope you are able to follow my words? (actually the words of the Fomenko Group!) In other words, the events now thought to have occured 3,450 years ago (From todays date, I.e. 2010 CE), are sometimes considered (per Fomenko) to actually have occured only about 2,650 years ago! Or at most, using our current dating system, about "650 BCE!" And by the use of the abbreviation "BCE", we would be talking about events that took place only about some period of time consuming an era only 650 years or so, before a period starting about 1,000 CE, to 1,300 CE, and by removing so much dead weight, the Fomenko Group might well assume that these events happened in our current dating system only about 650 or less, years before 1,000 to 1300 CE!

In other words, using our current dating system, the these events happend during the Middle Ages! More specifically during the Early Middle Ages!

Sorry but this entire line of thought is frought with problems of location and time!

But, certainly events like the "little Ice Age", and other weather related problems can come into the mixture!

And, indeed deep search into the very word "Goth", can lead one into a plethoria of meaning and spellings, such as "Geatae", "Geats", "Goats", etc.! One needs to be careful in staking too much in the truth, if one ignores other possibilities.
Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 18-Jan-2010 at 09:13

Iranians and some other nations call Germany "Alman" (Names of Germany: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany), as you read here, Kassite kings called themselves the king of Kassites, Padan, Alman and Guti, and you can read here the land of the Kassites, the Guti, Padan, and Alman lie on slopes of the eastern mountains (Zagros mountains).

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Ok, as you read here about the Pitted Ware culture (ca 3200 BC– ca 2300 BC) in southern Scandinavia which was contemporary and overlapping with the agricultural Funnelbeaker culture, it spoke a language related to the Finno-Ugric languages

Again a misreading by you.  What the source says is:

Originally posted by Wikipedia Its connections with the probably pre-Indo-European Funnelbeaker culture and the probably Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware culture are debated. As the language left no records, its linguistic affiliations are a mystery. It has been suggested that it spoke a language related to the Finno-Ugric languages and provided the unique linguistic features discussed in the Germanic substrate hypothesis.

As you can see the language left no records so there is no way anybody can say it is related to the FInno-Urgic languages with any certainty, as you seem to imply above.  Notice the word suggested, that should tell you that there is no certainty to the information that comes after it, in this case that the Pitted Ware Culture spoke a Finno-Urgic language.  You might also want to read the article on the Germanic Substrate hypothesis, the whole point of the hypothesis is to explain certain elements of the Germanic Languages that are not Indo-European.  

and you can read here about the second one which was developed farming culture of southern Scandinavia, that "Little can be said about its ethnic or linguistic roots. In the context of the Kurgan hypothesis, the culture is seen as non-Indo-European."

The Kurgan hypothesis is just one hypothesis concerning who were the original speakers of Proto-Indo-European, the problem with these hypotheses in places like Scandinavia is that there is no evidence as to what languages were spoken by the people living in Scandinavia during the 3rd Millennium BC, so nothing can be said with any certainty.  There is a competing hypothesis called the Paleolithic Continuity Theory which argues a number of things as can be seen in the link.  When examining the archaeological evidence proponents note that there is a lack of evidence for a Indo-European Invasion.  About the historical reconstruction of this theory wikipedia says this:

Associated with the Paleolithic Continuity Theory (PCT) is the historical reconstruction proposed by Alinei, which suggests that Indo-European speakers were native in Europe since thepaleolithic. According to this reconstruction, the differentiation process of languages would have taken an extremely long time; by the end of the Ice Age the Indo-European language family had differentiated into proto Celtic/Italic/Germanic/Slavic/Baltic speakers occupying territories within or close to their traditional homelands. The rate of change accelerated when (Neolithic) social stratification and colonial wars began. Summarizing:[2] The colonial expansion of the Celts started much earlier than La Tene and proceeded (generally) from West to East, not vice versa. The Mesolithic cultures of Northern Europe are identified with already differentiated Celtic, Germanic, Baltic and Uralic groups. Scandinavia was colonized by Germanic groups "only" after deglaciation, and was better able to preserve its original character in isolation. Germany, in contrast, suffered fragmentation as a result of the Neolithic appearance of the Linear Pottery culture, and developed a wealth of dialects. The prehistoric distribution of proto-languages akin to Italic was an important factor underlying the current distribution of Romance languages throughout Europe. The Slavic languages originated in the Balkans and became linked with the Neolithic expansion. This group would be especially identified by the Baden culture.[5] The Paleolithic Continuity hypothesis reverses the Kurgan hypothesis and largely identifies the Indo-Europeans with Gimbutas' "Old Europe."[6] PCT reassigns the Kurgan culture (traditionally considered early Indo-European) to a people of predominantly mixed Uralic and Turkic stock. This hypothesis is supported by the tentative linguistic identification of Etruscans as a Uralic, proto-Hungarian people that had already undergone strong proto-Turkish influence in the third millennium BC,[5] when Pontic invasions would have brought this people to the Carpathian Basin. A subsequent migration of Urnfield culture signature around 1250 BC caused this ethnic group to expand south in a general movement of people, attested by the upheaval of the Sea Peoples and the overthrow of an earlier Italic substrate at the onset of the "Etruscan" Villanovan culture.[5]

So as you can see the Kurgan Hypothesis is not the only explanation as to who were the original speakers of Proto-Indo European.  PCT actually argues against the Kurgan Hypothesis and is an academically accepted alternative to the Kurgan hypothesis.

Therefore the original inhabitants of southern Scandinavia and Gotland were non-Indo-Europeans and spoke a Finno-Ugric language

As I have shown above you can't make this claim with any certainty or any high probability.  There are varying schools of thought on this subject and one school, PCT, argues that by this time (3100 BC) the people living in Scandinavia were already speaking a Proto-Germanic language, but since there is no attested language from these people no one will ever know for sure what they spoke.  

but Goths were an Indo-European people and if they didn't live there then they should have migrated from another land to this region, I didn't talk about any invasion, the migration could occur peacefully.

 An invasion doesn't have to be violent, it can simply be a migration, incoming, or spread of something to a certain place with the result usually being harmful to what is already at that place.  

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Styrbiorn, it seems that you know many things but you don't want to tell us! I have never talked about Persians in this thread and I believe there was absoultely no relation between ancient Gutians and Kassites of western Iran and Persians or even other Iranian-speaking peoples, as I said several times Iranian-speaking peoples themselves believed their original land was somewhere in the remote north and they have migrated to Iranian plateau and other regions in the Central Asia and Eastern Europe, of course there was certainly a strong cultural influence of the native people of Iran on the Iranian-speaking people after the migration, for example as I said in this thread about Old Norse Tyr and Gutian Tir/Tirigan, according to this book: A history of Zoroastrianism By Mary Boyce, Frantz Grenet, Tir/Tyr was probably the chief god of western Iranians, who incorporated his cult into Zoroastrianism at their conversion.

Sorry, I meant of course Gutians in my last post

Styrbiorn, it seems that you know many things but you don't want to tell us! I have never talked about Persians in this thread and I believe there was absoultely no relation between ancient Gutians and Kassites of western Iran and Persians or even other Iranian-speaking peoples, as I said several times Iranian-speaking peoples themselves believed their original land was somewhere in the remote north and they have migrated to Iranian plateau and other regions in the Central Asia and Eastern Europe, of course there was certainly a strong cultural influence of the native people of Iran on the Iranian-speaking people after the migration, for example as I said in this thread about Old Norse Tyr and Gutian Tir/Tirigan, according to this book: A history of Zoroastrianism By Mary Boyce, Frantz Grenet, Tir/Tyr was probably the chief god of western Iranians, who incorporated his cult into Zoroastrianism at their conversion.

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 30-May-2009 at 16:57