QuoteReplyTopic: Cyprus, Again! Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 09:25
Hello to you all
Obviously the Cypriot roller coaster will not have a end any time soon. Yesterday nationalist won on the Turkish side just a couple of years (I think) after the nationalists on the greek side lost who in turn won after the victory of the moderates in the Turksih side who ... you get my drift.
Personally, who blames the Turks. They were told in 2004 that if they say yes, and they did, to the settlement they will be considered EU citizens and the North will have access to EU just as the south.
What happend?
Europe as usual backed away from the agreement. Turkey should declare it its 82nd province and finish the matter once and for all because obviously neither europe is interested in settlement nor politicians want it. What is your opinion.
Obviously the Cypriot roller coaster will not have a end any time soon. Yesterday nationalist won on the Turkish side just a couple of years (I think) after the nationalists on the greek side lost who in turn won after the victory of the moderates in the Turksih side who ... you get my drift.
Personally, who blames the Turks. They were told in 2004 that if they say yes, and they did, to the settlement they will be considered EU citizens and the North will have access to EU just as the south.
What happend?
Europe as usual backed away from the agreement. Turkey should declare it its 82nd province and finish the matter once and for all because obviously neither europe is interested in settlement nor politicians want it. What is your opinion.
Al-Jassas
pff. To people have to approve the peace plan not one side. If you belive that only one sides has tolike the proposal then you might want to stick you head outside of the sand.
first off, the Europeans didn't back out of any promises. They had no control over the Cypriots saying no to the peace agreement.
second of all there was a gentlemans agreemant between the prev Cypriot president and the USA/EU to support the outcome before it was debated. Then the Turks pushed through just a little too much that was acceptable for the Greek side. That prev agreemant was not a blank cheque.
which comes to my third point - You cant make the Cypriots agree to a plan that they weren't comfortable with. So next time the smart arses in the Turkish military want to push their agenda and secure their position on a soveirgn country they wont get in writing, that is legitimised, from the cypriots side. The smugness of their side in getting what they cheifly wanted, got the No it deserved.
Al jassas as one that takes a view that there should not be on isreali inch in the palistinian territory you would of all people understand why the cypriots could not agree on turkey having a presence on the island. Remember the other side in Nth cyrpus has illegal settlers as welll. Or am I talking to one of those double standard posters?
First of all, the majority of Turkish Cypriots are, believe it or not, greeks who were either kicked out of their homes, mostly in Crete but some came from other parts especially Peloponnesses, because they were of the wrong religion or converts. So the is no comparison whatsoever between the situation there and Palestine.
Second, the EU promised open door policy towards the North (all european treaties will apply there as if it was part of EU) especially opening the door to the Turkish cypriot economy, this didn't happen.
Seeing that the Turkish Cypriots returned to the only door that remained open to them and this was Turkey.
Lets face it, reunification ain't happening. Turks will be the majority in 20-50 years, many forces oppose even their very existence and there is always the threat of enosis which the Turks wil die before see it happening.
Either recognize the republic of North Cyprus or recognize Turkish soveriegnty.
which comes to my third point - You cant make the Cypriots agree to a plan that they weren't comfortable with. So next time the smart arses in the Turkish military want to push their agenda and secure their position on a soveirgn country they wont get in writing, that is legitimised, from the cypriots side. The smugness of their side in getting what they cheifly wanted, got the No it deserved.
Al jassas as one that takes a view that there should not be on isreali inch in the palistinian territory you would of all people understand why the cypriots could not agree on turkey having a presence on the island. Remember the other side in Nth cyrpus has illegal settlers as welll. Or am I talking to one of those double standard posters?
Well those smart arses resqued Cypriot Turks from EOKA. And about those settlers, Southern side also has many settlers from out of the island (Pantios settlers from Georgia for example, and bytheway most of them are originaly Georgian not Greek).
Southern side still belives Enosis, otherwise there wont be any Greece flags at the other side of greenline, thanks to EU Cyprus and Greece united, and we had our Taksim at 74.
Leonadis common, EU screwed up with Cyprus, they managed to get the Turks to say yes and agree but the Greeks said no, we can't really blame the Turks for the island not forming some settlement recently.
In my opinion, they'll never reach an agreement, they don't even know what they can agree upon, neither side really wants one unified country, a federation will turn into a power struggle, people don't actually want what they say they do. The Greek side doesn't really want to have to share their EU money with the Turkish side or have a mass-Turkish population explosion on their side of the island, the Turks won't have their army leave...
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
Al jassas as one that takes a view that there should not be on
isreali inch in the palistinian territory you would of all people
understand why the cypriots could not agree on turkey having a presence
on the island. Remember the other side in Nth cyrpus has illegal
settlers as welll. Or am I talking to one of those double standard
posters?
I think when the Turkish Cypriots overrun greek Cyprus, place nearly all the greeks into large prision cities, arbitrarily kill greeks for no reason, bulldoze their farms on the excuse of fighting terrorists, and place impossible movement restrictions, then we can compare Cyprus with Palestine.
Well Omar, Turks (not Turkish Cypriots but whatever) invaded and took half the island expelling all Greek Cypriots, turning them to refugees, taking their homes and finally brought thousands of settlers from Anatolia to change the island demographics.
Yeah but its not really that one sided if were objective about it is it Vorian, the Greek Junta and its policy of Enosis wasn't exactly a humanitarian effort now was it and EOKA didn't help either. What was Turkey meant to do? sit back and watch... nobody else wanted to get their hands dirty protecting the Turkish Cypriots, someone had to get involved...
Both sides are as responsible as each other for the problem and people on both sides blame each other which doesnt solve anything.
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
Turkey invaded Cyprus after the guarateurs of Cyprus, especially Britain which had a military presence, failed to stop the cleansing that began when the coup against Makarios happened. It was a Palestine in the making and Turkey did what the agreements allowed it to do.
Now I am not defending the war crimes that Turkey did but one has to be honest, Turkey did offer to leave and reunite the Island. However, things got more and more complicated and it was only in the 80s did those advocating secession got their way.
The UN plan was a first step, yes it did have several objectionable points Greeks like the right of return and the Turkish military presence (its funny that "independent" cyprus was expected to have continued greek military presence but not Turkish) but it also had points objectionable points to the Turks as well, a thing many Cypriots didn't know about (thanks in part to the 9000+ page document and the negative mood) like giving up the second and third most populous cities they had back to the greeks as well as several important areas.
Well Omar, Turks (not Turkish Cypriots but whatever) invaded and took half the island expelling all Greek Cypriots, turning them to refugees, taking their homes and finally brought thousands of settlers from Anatolia to change the island demographics.
That sounds bad enough to me.
Turkish Armed Forces came to resque Cypriot Turks, if there were no agression against Cypriot Turks, if there were peace in Cyprus, T.A.F. wont come.
Greek Cypriots left their homes in North, so the Cypriot Turks in South(for their own security). And again about those settlers, immigrants coming to both side of Cyprus(Turks to North, Greeks to South) so i think we are not the only responsible for demographic changes in Cyprus...
First of all, the majority of Turkish Cypriots are, believe it or not, greeks who were either kicked out of their homes, mostly in Crete but some came from other parts especially Peloponnesses, because they were of the wrong religion or converts. So the is no comparison whatsoever between the situation there and Palestine.
and that has what to do with the current situation? lots of people on both sides come from across the border.
Originally posted by Al Jassas
Second, the EU promised open door policy towards the North (all european treaties will apply there as if it was part of EU) especially opening the door to the Turkish cypriot economy, this didn't happen.
it cant recognise the north and aid would have to go either via the south or via Turkey it is not as simple as shipping it over. remember since then, Turkey also refuses to open up its trade with cyprus. Which it initaily said it would do.
We are back up to the no-win situation and deadlock of before. No suprises there, without both sides going back to the table the North will always be isolated. Its not something the EU can break, even more sympathetic countries to the TRNC will have legal issues landing any civilian planes on that side, let alone aid.
Originally posted by Al Jassas
Seeing that the Turkish Cypriots returned to the only door that remained open to them and this was Turkey.
the EU and Greek door is open, but the state they have created will not be recognized. How many Tibetan embassies does the exile government have? none. While the TRNC exist it will be to the political self exclusion of its own population.
Originally posted by Al Jassas
Lets face it, reunification ain't happening. Turks will be the majority in 20-50 years, many forces oppose even their very existence and there is always the threat of enosis which the Turks wil die before see it happening.
they can never be majority on the other 2/3rds unless they complete the job, without that they can only populate it so far before turning it into a Gaza like dump. Renuification can work - just without the Turkish army and new settlers.
Originally posted by Al Jassas
Either recognize the republic of North Cyprus or recognize Turkish soveriegnty.
..and isreal on whatver it can hold right? Cyprus is the only legitimate government of the island; the other two chioces not going to acceptable to the other 2/3 of the island, the EU and the UN. There is nothing Turkey can do to change that. Work with it or accept the dipomatic complications of not compromising.
Originally posted by erkut
Well
those smart arses resqued Cypriot Turks from EOKA. And about those
settlers, Southern side also has many settlers from out of the island
(Pantios settlers from Georgia for example, and bytheway most of them
are originaly Georgian not Greek).
Southern side still belives Enosis, otherwise there wont be any
Greece flags at the other side of greenline, thanks to EU Cyprus and
Greece united, and we had our Taksim at 74.
erkut the enosis has already happened, via the EU. Greece doesnt actaully need to formalise it. anyone in the EU can travel, live and work within the greater group, same currency and regulations. why would they need to go any further? That would just play in the hands of the Turkish military.
The Turkish army done a good job when they intervened, but by refusing to leave they have just blocked the peace process. Is that good for cypriots on both sides? Beyond that wall is some Greek extermenist living in the same wonderland fantasy that ruined the country and something the MHP types can be familar with, but most of the population just want it to be over. They may not suffer as much as the north but they are also tired of the situation. Howver, they cant accept the Turkish army on the island. Both sides have sensativities that must be respected. That is number one issue, the rest can be compromised.
Cyprus can accept any migrant it wants, that is the luxury of legitimate government. I would also argue that this is in reaction to the setllers, they also pay money for more babies simply to keep up with the demographic onslaught. perosnally all sides should impose bans until the sitaution is sorted.
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Al jassas as one that takes a view that there should not be on
isreali inch in the palistinian territory you would of all people
understand why the cypriots could not agree on turkey having a presence
on the island. Remember the other side in Nth cyrpus has illegal
settlers as welll. Or am I talking to one of those double standard
posters?
I
think when the Turkish Cypriots overrun greek Cyprus, place nearly all
the greeks into large prision cities, arbitrarily kill greeks for no
reason, bulldoze their farms on the excuse of fighting terrorists, and
place impossible movement restrictions, then we can compare Cyprus with
Palestine.
oh the turks simply invaded an emtpy land, or did they simply knock on the door and politly ask the people to leave? The turkish military is not some kind of magic police force that masters the soft power of persuasion.... The settlements, forced evictions, lack of compensation, forced territorial divisions, as well as no right of return is pretty much the same foundation as the palistinian problem. Or has the palistinan issue all of a sudden lost its history and boiled down to check points and olive trees?
Turkey was within her right to intervene (if it saved the Turks from outright butchery then i applued them). However, she was not in her right to occupy or divide the island. The settlers have nothing to do with Turkish Cypriot security. it is simply migration under arms no different to isreali policy. They took more of the island than what was reflected in their population. Now they want to press that advantage irrespective of current politics. The war is over, they won, lesson learnt no need to create anothe injustice to replace another one.
Greece overthrew its militray a*holes and those type of people have no say in what happens in Greece or Cyprus. That threat is gone, but somehow the Turkish military keep it alive in national policy and public propaganda. The moves to cement the division of the island (and a permament Turkish military presence) has more to do with Turkey than the Turkish cypriots
Leonadis common, EU screwed up with Cyprus, they managed to get the Turks to say yes and agree but the Greeks said no, we can't really blame the Turks for the island not forming some settlement recently.
In my opinion, they'll never reach an agreement, they don't even know what they can agree upon, neither side really wants one unified country, a federation will turn into a power struggle, people don't actually want what they say they do. The Greek side doesn't really want to have to share their EU money with the Turkish side or have a mass-Turkish population explosion on their side of the island, the Turks won't have their army leave...
It was screwed up when the Turks refused to, at the very least, get their army out. The EU misjudged the situation, the USA and UK probably should have stayed away - I remember those two rolling the Cypriot side at the negotitions. They assumed the agreement was going to be acceptable or that each side was desperate enough to say yes. The didnt think the Greeks would reject it, that is their misjudgment. Anyone that knows Greeks would of played it safer than the ambush tactics of those negiotions. They dont say yes because everyone wants them to. Im sure the Turks are cut from the same cloth
You would be surprised at how quickly the Greek side would say yes, once the Turk army leaves and one man should equal one vote. Get past those sticking points, they are not unreasonable, and you have a workable outcome. No one is going to touch the turkish cyproits, why would Cyprus invite the Turkish army back? Greece certianly doesnt want a war either, and yes it does want Turkey in the EU. If it gets in, but plays ball on the Cyprus/aegean issue, it would save Greece so much more money than EU subsides. I think Athens actaully realised this a while ago. France on the other hand.....
By voting to ratify the plan, TRNC declared itself part of the republic of Cyprus and the EU declared that there was no legal obsticles on EU treaties applying to the North even if the plan was vetoed by the south. Europe backed down on its promise for no reason other than greek, and Franco-German, pressure despite the fact that those same countries lead the choir that promised full integration for the north. So all the legal mumbo jumbo is irrelevent.
Second point, the situation in Palestine is totally different as I said. Turks are natural residents and they have a right for self determination especially since they form an absolute majority in a continous part of the island. In Palestine, native Palestinians were uprooted their land was confiscated and given to people who don't own the land nor have any right in it. Turks have shown more than one an acceptence in principal for the right of return for most greeks but not all a thing Israel never accepted and the world supports it in.
Third, Turks are about 20% of the total population of the island. their natural growth rate is about 2% while the Cypriot side has a negative natural growth rate. Based on models they will exceed the greeks in 30-50 years in the island as a whole so if the island is united they will form the majority in 50 years time. Anti-unity leaders are aware of this fact and they know what this will mean.
Fourth, the greek cypriots while wanting the greek military presence to continue refuse the Turkish military presence, the turkish cypriots accepted a presence that was equivalent and reduces (6000 each) to end in 2015 with possibility of early finish. These are the facts.
Leonadis, if there is no Turkish millitary presence who will fill the void? the Greek Cypriot side has her forces, will they be in charge of the Turkish side? I think its unrealistic for the Turkish side not to keep at least some of her forces, at least untill the situation settles down enough.
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
By voting to ratify the plan, TRNC declared itself part of the republic of Cyprus and the EU declared that there was no legal obsticles on EU treaties applying to the North even if the plan was vetoed by the south. Europe backed down on its promise for no reason other than greek, and Franco-German, pressure despite the fact that those same countries lead the choir that promised full integration for the north. So all the legal mumbo jumbo is irrelevent.
but its not a integrated part of the Cypriot republic and therefore remains in political no mans land. They cant deal with the TRNC in its current form. If it is simply legal mumbo jumbo, and bad hearted politics (its there but not quite in this case) why cant any other country deal with the TRNC themselves? Its has no offical status in the real world and to deal with them, you actaully need to deal with Nicosia. If the promise was broken it was because it should not have been made in the first place. The EU cannot get around it, no one but Turkey can deal with the North.
Originally posted by Al Jassas
Second point, the situation in Palestine is totally different as I said. Turks are natural residents and they have a right for self determination especially since they form an absolute majority in a continous part of the island. In Palestine, native Palestinians were uprooted their land was confiscated and given to people who don't own the land nor have any right in it. Turks have shown more than one an acceptence in principal for the right of return for most greeks but not all a thing Israel never accepted and the world supports it in.
my bolding.
Go back to the old ethnic maps, that continous part is not their own but what was won over in the war. So yeah very much the same as palistine, ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing
The settlers are not a part of what your talking about
the land conquered is greater than their population share
Infact the right of return wasnt something they want to give up easily. Link me proof that this was the case, becuase i have not come across this.
If everyone got their right of return, that is kicked out turks + kicked out Greeks it would benifit greeks more, as they lost the most. I cant really see, or expect the turks to want to return to the old map in a hurry.
Under the last 'deal' Greeks were more abble to set up a home in Germany than northern cyrpus
but thats not a deal breaker in my mind, as we lost the war and should accept at the most a partial or phased compromise. FYI most land handed to the Greek side coame from the UK, in that last 'deal'.
Originally posted by Al Jassas
Third, Turks are about 20% of the total population of the island. their natural growth rate is about 2% while the Cypriot side has a negative natural growth rate. Based on models they will exceed the greeks in 30-50 years in the island as a whole so if the island is united they will form the majority in 50 years time. Anti-unity leaders are aware of this fact and they know what this will mean.
apply your number to Turkish cypriots, not settlers form the mainland which also include Kurds. The Greek Cypriots had already agreed that some settlers can stay.
Originally posted by Al Jassas
Fourth, the greek cypriots while wanting the greek military presence to continue refuse the Turkish military presence, the turkish cypriots accepted a presence that was equivalent and reduces (6000 each) to end in 2015 with possibility of early finish. These are the facts.
Al-Jassas
mate the greek presence would not be needed if the Turkish army was gone. The whole greek-turk thing is basically a 'you move first' stand off. any agreemant would naturally remove all foreign forces. The cypriots could integrate both communities securty forces and i would make an edcuted guess that it would be strictly a defense force. No ships bigger a certain size or bombers and the like. The Turks would not leave if they didnt get some concessions that nothing that can harm them would be based there. This is a strategic issue for the Turks, under the guise of 'humanitarian' protection, so we cant expect anything until those real concerns are addressed.
My ultimate wish, from a united island is the British to be kicked out aswell. While its split they get to stay, an imperial legacy.
Leonadis, if there is no Turkish millitary presence who will fill the void? the Greek Cypriot side has her forces, will they be in charge of the Turkish side? I think its unrealistic for the Turkish side not to keep at least some of her forces, at least untill the situation settles down enough.
Turkish Cypriots can police themselves. I cant see an issue if there is some allowance for intergation at national level anyway. It is happening in iraq to some degree so it can happen anywhere - where a foreign power is guiding that outcome. If that is too unrealistic for you, a UN or third party force agreed to by both sides
can stay in the senstive early days or when both sides think its ok.
better than having them patrol a split
The big problem in Cyprus is the amount of time they have been seperated, the things they use to have in common gets lost in time. The issue is trust between the two communities. that cant be adressed while the walls are up. getting a permament split, or a strong split in the 'one' country will be for the long term detriment of either side. You go back to the Ottoman times and read that both these guys use to riot agianst the authorities. Being a Cypriot can be greater than either Greek or turk.
Go back to the old ethnic maps, that continous part is not their own but what was won over in the war. So yeah very much the same as palistine, ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing
Yea funny we done the ethnic cleansing....
Originally posted by Leonidas
apply your number to Turkish cypriots, not settlers form the mainland which also include Kurds.
apply your number to Greek cypriots, not settlers which also include Georgians(Fake Pantios)
Go back to the old ethnic maps, that continous part is not their own but what was won over in the war. So yeah very much the same as palistine, ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing
Yea funny we done the ethnic cleansing....
nothing funny about it
Its clear in my posts, i do not apportion blame to one side
thats how people from outside the turkish bubble report it; eg 1 from story dating back to when the TRNC knocked back on a earlier peace plan (Greek side accepted it)
So Cyprus remains a cruelly divided economic slum. Such is the dirty
legacy of "ethnic cleansing," which occurred in Cyprus long before
Bosnia.
After independence in 1960, Cyprus's Greek and
Turkish communities proved unable to live under a common roof.
Reciprocal folly led in 1974 to Turkey's armed intervention and a
brutal population exchange that displaced 160,000 Greek Cypriots and
45,000 Turkish Cypriots. Since then, an unrecognized Turkish Cypriot
mini-state has been kept alive by Turkish subsidies and soldiers, while
United Nations blue helmets patrol a buffer zone.
for Al jassas and others who think this isnt similar to Isreal/Palestine look at the map
"In 1960 the Greek and Turkish communities formed a mosaic. After more
than 25 years of Turkish occupation of the north of the island and the
forced transfer of populations, the two communities - Turkish in the
north and Greek in the south - are now strictly separated by a
demarcation line." mondediplo.com/maps/cyprusmdv49
Originally posted by erkut
Originally posted by Leonidas
apply your number to Turkish cypriots, not settlers form the mainland which also include Kurds.
apply your number to Greek cypriots, not settlers which also include Georgians(Fake Pantios)
whats funny about that? This deserve nothing less than a honest and serious conversation. The logic put to me is that the Turks are a demographic force. Which is BS, the main reasons why the Turkey wants the TRNC remain phyiscally seperate is to make sure it is not assimilated into the majoirty and keep some leverage on the island.
place of birth from the TRNC (Permanent Residence) in their own census 2006 total population is 256,644 born in the TRNC 115,600 or 45.04% turkey 94,714 or 36.90% others making up the diffrerence
TRNC Citizens born in TRNC 111,679 63.19% Turkey 27,333 15.47%
of those born in TRNC 80% have both parents from cyprus. In the peace plan Nicosia was willing to accpet most of these as cypriots - If i remeber right the 11% that had both from turkey were not. You had to have one cypriot parent.
show me the stats on Greeks playing demograhic games? You wouldnt find one group coming even close to double digits. Cyprus has these splits, notice that Cyprus has and cope with multi ethnicities.....
The population
of Cyprus is 793.100 of whom 80,7% are Greek Cypriots (including
Armenians, Maronites and Latins), 87,600 (11,0%) are Turkish Cypriots
and 66,000 (8,3%) foreigners residing in Cyprus.
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