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Creation of Islam

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Creation of Islam
    Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 17:17
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello Cyrus
 
Saying Islam gave nothing new is unjust
just or unjust, that is a fact.
 
remember, this was the first religion without a religious heirarchy or as is now known, an ecclesiastic religion, a thing all other religions including the Persian ones you mentioned had at the core of their belief systems.
I think you are talking about clericalism: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/clericalism an undue influence of the hierarchy and clergy in public affairs and government, yes? Shia Muslims don't believe what Sunnis say about it but they say according to Quran (like 4:59) you should obey not only Allah and the prophet but also the clergy.
Anyway I myself think Sunnis are right on this issue but it just shows the influence of Mazdakism on Islam, you can read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazdakism One of the principles of Mazdakism was "anti-clericalism".
 
It was a simple religion with simple teachings that were focused on the human being himself.It empowered women more than any mainstream culture or religion for centuries (even mellenium) to come. And it had equality at its Heart, equality between all muslims that is no built in racism or discrimination, unless you count slavery that is another issue altogether.
The same as Mazdakism.
 
Finally, thee is no proof whatsoever that Islam is related near or far to any of the Persians religions, this is a fact and if you have proofs give it and I will discuss with you.
If you know please mention one thing in Islam which was unrelated to the Persian religions or other pre-Islam religions, we can discuss about it.


Yes Cyrus. The Iranians have not only created the World and the Stars, but also everything that ever had any historical ramifications. Not only did the Iranians invent Islam, they invented religion of all kinds, and of course secretly the Germans are Iranians, and of course yes Obama is Iranian as are half of the World's leaders. The rest are just put there to undermine Iran's achievements to the Galaxy.

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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 17:58
Not only did the Iranians invent Islam, they invented religion of all kinds, and of course secretly the Germans are Iranians, and of course yes Obama is Iranian as are half of the World's leaders.

How dare you not name the dinosaurs? They were the proto-Persians. Name 'Darius' was originally 'Dariosaur'. 
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 18:08
Originally posted by es_bih

Saying that Islam was spread by the sword when it took up to 4-5 centuries for a lot of regions to even have a Muslim majority is no other thing than retarded. I guess when you don't understand the whole scope of history, and focus on today rather than a careful study of a 1400 year period you get this idea if the vast majority are Muslim today that means they were so 1400 years ago as well. Again if there were "by the sword," not saying that there were not small and insignificant sporadic ones, but no large scale or centralized movements of any significance occurred. Egypt was majority Christian up until the Crusades, and so was almost most of the rest of the Middle East. Why? Because conversions were not stressed for one, nor sought out in the early period.
 
I think we are all often careless with words when we discuss this topic. There is some debate over whether or not Islam was spread by the sword more than any other absolutist religion. What cannot be denied, however, is that the influence of Islam was spread by the sword. The prophet and his followers, whether they forced people to convert or not, did spend a good deal of time bringing Arabia and (in the case of his followers) much of the known world into the Dar al-Islam, where there was financial and social pressure to convert. I think we often take a view of the situation that is too black and white.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 22-Jan-2009 at 18:09
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 18:30
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Not only did the Iranians invent Islam, they invented religion of all kinds, and of course secretly the Germans are Iranians, and of course yes Obama is Iranian as are half of the World's leaders.

How dare you not name the dinosaurs? They were the proto-Persians. Name 'Darius' was originally 'Dariosaur'. 

I have been told they were created by Turks, God is Turk do not forget that fact. These are just Persian propaganda to reclaim Turkish historyBig smile (it is a joke for those who dont get it)


Edited by Suren - 23-Jan-2009 at 18:00
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 18:36

The Prophet? I think you're mistaken. During the Prophet's time there were defensive wars fought yes. But, the conquest itself is the prodigy of the Caliphate.
Here is the thing Ako, if there was that much pressure to convert, a lot of people in particular the uneducated peasantry would have converted en masse. That is what happens when there are pressures. The Levant and Egypt would have been nearly 80% Muslim within a generation if it were so. Fact still remains that up until the Crusades the Christians were a majority within the remnants of the Caliphate.







Edited by es_bih - 22-Jan-2009 at 20:28
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 18:39
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Not only did the Iranians invent Islam, they invented religion of all kinds, and of course secretly the Germans are Iranians, and of course yes Obama is Iranian as are half of the World's leaders.

How dare you not name the dinosaurs? They were the proto-Persians. Name 'Darius' was originally 'Dariosaur'. 


I am mistaken forgive me. Yes. The Dinasours were also Proto-Iranic. Also Turks are long lost Proto-Iranic people so people here on AE with Turkic ancestry or heritage (quite a few of us here including myself and you Bey) we all should bow down to Dariosaurius the First. Infact Cyrus the First may have been not only a dinasour but the first cell crica. 3 billions years ago. True. All of life on Earth is Iranic due to Cyrus the one celled king of creation.

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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 18:46
You finaly got the point
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  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 19:30
A ridiculous topic by a confused and complexed man about history of his country, but I must accept that the posts are funny
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 19:58
Originally posted by es_bih


The Prophet? I think you're mistaken. During the Prophet's time there were defensive wars fought yes. But, the conquest itself is the prodigy of the Caliphate. 
 
We could debate this ad nauseam -- actually, we have before, haven't we? Wink Suffice it to say that I maintain that the wars may only be considered defensive in the loosest sense of the word, and that if we take a very selective reading. Still, this is a legitimate point of debate. My original point, however, that the spread of Islam was expedited by the sword, defensive or not. Remember, I'm trying to clarify something I think we all to often speak carelessly about.
 
Here is the thing Ako, if there was that much pressure to convert, a lot of people in particular the uneducated peasantry would have converted en masse. That is what happens when there are pressures. The Levant and Egypt would have been nearly 80% Muslim within a generation if it were so. Fact still remains that up until the Crusades the Christians were a majority within the remnants of the Caliphate.
 
Well, first, I don't think anyone would assert that there wasn't any pressure to convert. If you would like to argue along those lines, I'd love to hear an explanation.
 
Second, pressured conversion need not be swift; indeed, it often is not. Keep in mind how persistent paganism was in the Roman empire. The various cults survived the Constantinian dispensation, the Theodosian edicts, etc., and didn't really become supressed outwardly until the middle of the sixth century. In the East, they continued in a severely marginalized, occasionally syncretic form well into the Medieval period. In the West, many persisted even later. Point being, history demonstrates that the conversion of an entire subject population through social and economic pressure is a gradual process.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 22-Jan-2009 at 20:00
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:13
Who was Muhammad, prophet?"
Since religion is so subjective it probably depends on your upbringing and theological training.
To Christians and Jews- No!!
To Hindus and Budist - No!!
To the animist- NO!!
To Muslims yes!!
to Universalist- maybe

It is there right to believe but at the same time questioning anyone's beliefs should not threaten them and is free speech. If someone is strong in a particular faith then they should be able to stand up to the criticism and not get bent out of shape. Criticism should only make them stronger in their faith. I have found some Christians do not like criticism and the same is true with any belief, religion or political views.

Now that you have included both Jesus and Muhammad why not Joseph Smith- was Joseph Smith a Prophet??

I am sure the Mormons here would love that!!
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:37
Originally posted by Evrenosgazi

A ridiculous topic by a confused and complexed man about history of his country, but I must accept that the posts are funny


Funny it is indeed. Big smile
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:39
Off the top of my head but I don't think Mormons believe Smith was a prophet, do they? He discovered the writings of the prophet Mormon.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:43
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by es_bih


The Prophet? I think you're mistaken. During the Prophet's time there were defensive wars fought yes. But, the conquest itself is the prodigy of the Caliphate. 
 
We could debate this ad nauseam -- actually, we have before, haven't we? Wink Suffice it to say that I maintain that the wars may only be considered defensive in the loosest sense of the word, and that if we take a very selective reading. Still, this is a legitimate point of debate. My original point, however, that the spread of Islam was expedited by the sword, defensive or not. Remember, I'm trying to clarify something I think we all to often speak carelessly about.
 
Here is the thing Ako, if there was that much pressure to convert, a lot of people in particular the uneducated peasantry would have converted en masse. That is what happens when there are pressures. The Levant and Egypt would have been nearly 80% Muslim within a generation if it were so. Fact still remains that up until the Crusades the Christians were a majority within the remnants of the Caliphate.
 
Well, first, I don't think anyone would assert that there wasn't any pressure to convert. If you would like to argue along those lines, I'd love to hear an explanation.
 
Second, pressured conversion need not be swift; indeed, it often is not. Keep in mind how persistent paganism was in the Roman empire. The various cults survived the Constantinian dispensation, the Theodosian edicts, etc., and didn't really become supressed outwardly until the middle of the sixth century. In the East, they continued in a severely marginalized, occasionally syncretic form well into the Medieval period. In the West, many persisted even later. Point being, history demonstrates that the conversion of an entire subject population through social and economic pressure is a gradual process.
 
-Akolouthos


Again I said there were sporadic events throughout history of forced conversions or stressed ones. But, none of these can be applied to the early Caliphate as a state or Islam as a religion. Why? Well the religion does not preach it, and the state did not practice and in the early times did not favor conversion. Remember, more taxes from non-army recruits than form eligible recruits. Incidentally Arab Christians from the peninsula served in the conquests. So again - they were neither pressured to convert nor did, but actually participated on the same level. In less numbers because there were less of course, but that is a matter of statistics rather than them not being allowed to do so.


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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:49
Stop despising Iranians! Angry I mean we didn't create Islam! Wink
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:52
Originally posted by Reginmund

If your point, Cyrus, is that Islam was a construct based on already existing doctrines and not something handed down from a god, then any rational person would agree with you. This is true for all religions though, Zoroastrianism too. Religion however will endure regardless of how scientific advances may undermine its credibility, as science cannot counteract man's fear of non-existence or his need to believe there is universal and absolute justice.

Originally posted by Suren

Sassanids are back better watch yourselfWink


Where? Iran's present government is an insult to Persian history and culture.
don't you understand the atmosphere? IT IS A JOKE. begripe?!

Edited by Suren - 22-Jan-2009 at 20:53
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:53
Did you guys know that I am also a Prophet? I foresee the value of this thread for only the creator, Dariosaur! I also know why he created this thread. Maybe he can tell you all why also! What do you say Cyrus?
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:55
Originally posted by Seko

Did you guys know that I am also a Prophet? I foresee the value of this thread for only the creator, Dariosaur! I also know why he created this thread. Maybe he can tell you all why also! What do you say Cyrus?
Thank god. I know that god is a Turk!

Nasilsen Tenrri?Smile
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:56
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Stop despising Iranians! Angry I mean we didn't create Islam! Wink



No one is despising Iranians Smile

Wait a minute, up until last week half the Iranian Nationalist defense council proclaimed that Salman the Iranian influenced and created Islam on behalf of the Prophet.
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  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 21:15

Guys let us stop the discussion, stupid topic leads us to a turk-persian argument

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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 22:44

Mazdakism was an off shoot of zoroastrianism and there is simply no connection whatsoever between a proto-communist religion and a one that punishes adultry with death.

 
Al-Jassas
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