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How do creationist explain fossil fuels?

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How do creationist explain fossil fuels?
    Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 08:08

From me Genesis 4.18 explains a lot. On a quick glance I'm identfying three perspectives (but it may be more to it):
a) It has a role in the economy of the myth, it explains the characters involved by defining the relation between them.
b) Together with other Biblical verses it explains a worldview. All humanity comes from an archetypal couple created by God, Adam and Eve. Multiplicating this archetype, the humans populate the world and each human has direct lineage to the archetypal couple.
c) A cult of the ancestors (explaining who one is and where is he going to). Spelling out each link from a genealogical chain in a repetitive, formulaic manner suggests sacrality (I am aware what we have in the Bible might be only a reflection of the cult the ancient Jews had). It is one of the possible bricks of Jewish cultural and ethnic identity (and it may be argued it consolidated Christian cultural and religious identities as well).

And thus I think my position has been misunderstood. When I'm talking about human experience, I'm not addressing only the experience of the natural world, but also the experience of needs, fears, hopes, the experience of human existence, the experience of self-reflection. Many myths are stories that explain observed phenomena but many myths are not. I already pointed out that Chronos eating his children does not account for anything observed by man. Let's stick to the Biblical Flood, though. The verses from Genesis 8.6-12 (sending birds to look for land) hardly can be considered as an account for some physically observed phenomenon (at most, if originating in a sea-faring culture it may reflect the human knowledge to anticipate the land when seeing sea-gulls or other birds, however here we have more than that). They certainly have a role in the economy of the myth (to let Noah know when the earth dried out), but they encode meanings on their own, possible another myths which melted in this one. I'm not sure if it's worth digging, so I'll just sketch some meaningful elements: the three flights of the dove (a number with magical properties for many archaic cultures), the mythical opposition between raven and the dove (with several dichotomies to explore: white/black, trust/distrust, success/failure, etc.), the symbolism of olive branch/leaf (undoubtely one of the most important trees for the near-Eastern societies).

I disagree with any taxonomy trying to separate verifiable from un-verifiable in a religious text, because often there are statements holding both types of elements. For instance, Gensis 6.17: "And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die." We can't verify there's a God, but we can verify that no such massive extinction occured in the history of earth since human species exist. If God did it, then a bulk of scientific theories are flat wrong, the laws of nature predicted by them were violated by a transcendent force in a way we cannot understand (perhaps except some religious minds enjoying revelation), we live an illusion. Taking literally such a statement means getting in conflict with science.

For religions without metaphysics one can start with Eastern Asia. There's an entire spectrum there, lacking of showing minimal metaphysics. In science there's no metaphyics, unless it is misunderstood (some scholars might have personal worldviews which include metaphysics, true, but their work, if scientific, it doesn't).

Another thing: this thread was about modern Creationism, which is allegedly a scientific theory. Of course, many dispute that, because it fails to keep the standards.


Edited by Chilbudios - 21-Nov-2008 at 08:16
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 11:54
I was merely defending a position I held, I'm not sure if anyone else but Graham is interested in that.


I was quite enjoying watching an intelligent and learned man demolish an arrogant coward, since I do not have the time and patience to do it myself. But the schadenfreude ran out.

Edited by Beylerbeyi - 21-Nov-2008 at 11:55
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 12:11

Modern creationism may claim to be a scientific theory, but it isn't, because it is not refutable empirically. It is also not really any different at base than the belief in creationism which is common to the Abrahamic religions. I don't see any reason to separate it out.

Part of Menumorut's argument was interesting in that it raised the possibility of a non-theological argument for young earth creationism, based on the proposition that it is simpler than the alternatives. Strictly speaking that argument doesn't require a creator (though I gather Menumorut believs in one): the universe could have come into existence in line with any of the multitudinous beliefs people had had over time.

It's still of course a metaphysical position, since it is based on Ockham's principle, which is itself not an empirical one.
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios

For religions without metaphysics one can start with Eastern Asia. There's an entire spectrum there, lacking of showing minimal metaphysics.
A little more specificity would be helpful. Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shinto at least are rife with metaphysics (even if Gautama himself did a great deal to discourage some metaphysical speculation, for instance on the question of the origin of the universe).
 
I would think you might find some thing relatively metaphysics-free among some Confucian sects, but I don't know of one.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 13:07
Modern creationism can be and is refuted empirically. http://www.talkorigins.org/ can be a startpoint. One cannot claim the Earth is 6 millenia old (with or without God's interference) and expect no rebuttal from an array of scientific discplines converging to a different conclusion.
 
On Occam's Razor and metaphysics, it's worth reading how some scientists view it:
"The law of parsimony is no substitute for insight, logic and the scientific method.  It should never be relied upon to make or defend a conclusion.  As arbiters of correctness, only logical consistency and empirical evidence are absolute. "
 
Confucian sects are a very good example for lack of metaphysics. It is actually one of the reasons there's a controversy if they are religions or not. In my view, and according to the definition I proposed earlier, they are.
 
 
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 13:10
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

I was quite enjoying watching an intelligent and learned man demolish an arrogant coward, since I do not have the time and patience to do it myself. But the schadenfreude ran out.
And yet I'm still standing and wondering at what some people's intellectual impotence can suppurate ... Human misery can be fascinating sometimes.
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  Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 15:15
Originally posted by gcle2003

Part of Menumorut's argument was interesting in that it raised the possibility of a non-theological argument for young earth creationism, based on the proposition that it is simpler than the alternatives. Strictly speaking that argument doesn't require a creator (though I gather Menumorut believs in one): the universe could have come into existence in line with any of the multitudinous beliefs people had had over time.

It's still of course a metaphysical position, since it is based on Ockham's principle, which is itself not an empirical one.
 
 
If you apply Ochams Razor, then I wouldn’t say an old world is a more complex explanation than a young world is. Actually, it is the opposite. For a young world to be true, it requires a lot of circumventing the evidence, while an old world is based directly on the evidence. So Ochams Razor, if applied correctly, does not support a young world.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 16:14
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Modern creationism can be and is refuted empirically. http://www.talkorigins.org/ can be a startpoint. One cannot claim the Earth is 6 millenia old (with or without God's interference) and expect no rebuttal from an array of scientific discplines converging to a different conclusion.
Rebuttal is not refutation. I'm lost though as to what you mean by 'modern' creationism.
If there is a scientific discipline going by that name I've never come across it. 
 
Much of the site you 'quote' is devoted to defence againt creationist attacks on 'evolution' which is a different matter entirely. Creationist attacks on evolution theories fail for exactly the same reason empirical attacks on creationism fail. They're irrelevant to the positions being stated.
 
When American soldiers play poker three fours beats three threes. When British soldiers play five-card brag, three threes beats three fours. There's no point in the two of them arguing with each other about whether three threes is 'actually' better than three fours: they're playing different games.
On Occam's Razor and metaphysics, it's worth reading how some scientists view it:
"The law of parsimony is no substitute for insight, logic and the scientific method.  It should never be relied upon to make or defend a conclusion.  As arbiters of correctness, only logical consistency and empirical evidence are absolute. "
I agree with that. That's why it is a metaphysical principle, not a logical or scientific one.
 Confucian sects are a very good example for lack of metaphysics. It is actually one of the reasons there's a controversy if they are religions or not. In my view, and according to the definition I proposed earlier, they are.
It depends on the sect. Apart from the latter-day influence of Buddhism and Taoism, Confucianism in all its forms pays particular attention to the meaning and practice of the good life, just as Aristotle does. It is not, unlike the Tao, prescribed in order to benefit the person practising it but depends very much on a concept of society that is itself metaphysical.
 
Moreover the I Ching is one of the Confucian classics, and feng shui, the mandate of Heaven and ancestor veneration (if not worship) are Confucian doctrines. It's difficult to see how anyone could classify any of those as other than metaphysical.
 
However, I would grant that it is possible to distill from Confucianism an ethical system with no ontological connotations and no supernatural forces that has very little metaphysical about it. But if you do that (as people in the western modern world sometimes do) then it stops being a religion.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 16:17
Originally posted by Jams

Originally posted by gcle2003

Part of Menumorut's argument was interesting in that it raised the possibility of a non-theological argument for young earth creationism, based on the proposition that it is simpler than the alternatives. Strictly speaking that argument doesn't require a creator (though I gather Menumorut believs in one): the universe could have come into existence in line with any of the multitudinous beliefs people had had over time.

It's still of course a metaphysical position, since it is based on Ockham's principle, which is itself not an empirical one.
 
 
If you apply Ochams Razor, then I wouldn’t say an old world is a more complex explanation than a young world is. Actually, it is the opposite. For a young world to be true, it requires a lot of circumventing the evidence, while an old world is based directly on the evidence. So Ochams Razor, if applied correctly, does not support a young world.
Well, that's what I feel too. I nevertheless thought it was interesting to find a justification (alleged) for creationism that did not depend on God.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 17:32
You started again the same cheap strategies, missing the point and talking of things you don't know. That site contains much more than you could browse from the moment I linked until the time of your reply. I'm tired of these baseless assumptions. I have nothing to learn from you in this debate and you're wasting my time.
 
You lost your credit. Insert more coins if you need answers.
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 21-Nov-2008 at 17:36
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2008 at 23:38
To resume my idea, we have at least three variants:

-mattery is the principle of existence and world is 4 billion years old
-God (a rational and alive Being) is the principle of existence and He created the world 4 billion years ago
-God (a rational and alive Being) is the principle of existence and He created the world some thousands years ago.

Of these, I found the last the most credible because, as I said, the age of the world coincide with the age of humanity and the 'prehistorical' generations are a modern concept, linked to a presumed monkey origin of humans.

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 11:42
Originally posted by Chilbudios

You started again the same cheap strategies, missing the point and talking of things you don't know. That site contains much more than you could browse from the moment I linked until the time of your reply. I'm tired of these baseless assumptions. I have nothing to learn from you in this debate and you're wasting my time.
 
You lost your credit. Insert more coins if you need answers.
 
What would be the point, since you refuse to give answers anyway?
 
What purpose, incidentally, was served by this post of yours?
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 11:47
Originally posted by Menumorut

To resume my idea, we have at least three variants:

-mattery is the principle of existence and world is 4 billion years old
-God (a rational and alive Being) is the principle of existence and He created the world 4 billion years ago
-God (a rational and alive Being) is the principle of existence and He created the world some thousands years ago.

Of these, I found the last the most credible because, as I said, the age of the world coincide with the age of humanity and the 'prehistorical' generations are a modern concept, linked to a presumed monkey origin of humans.
 
I wrote what I did because it seemed to me that is an attempt to apply Ockham's razor - i.e. to base you conclusion on what seems to you to be the simpler answer. It also seemed to raise the possibility of a fourth variant - that there is no god but the world is only a few thousand years old. I didn't mean to imply (and I thought I said I didn't) that you believed that, just that someone might.
 
For instance, there are more extreme theories than that - solipsists who believe nothing exists outside their own imagination.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 14:43
Originally posted by gcle2003

 
What would be the point, since you refuse to give answers anyway?
 
What purpose, incidentally, was served by this post of yours?
 
Some people just can't take "no" for an answer.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 14:53
And some people always want the last word, even if they have nothing to add Smile
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  Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 15:13
Originally posted by Menumorut

To resume my idea, we have at least three variants:

-mattery is the principle of existence and world is 4 billion years old
-God (a rational and alive Being) is the principle of existence and He created the world 4 billion years ago
-God (a rational and alive Being) is the principle of existence and He created the world some thousands years ago.

Of these, I found the last the most credible because, as I said, the age of the world coincide with the age of humanity and the 'prehistorical' generations are a modern concept, linked to a presumed monkey origin of humans.
 

It is nice to see you put it that way. Maybe I was too hard on you, because re-reading the posts I became aware that your English probably isn't perfect, and that can sometimes lead to misunderstandings, especially when the wrong terminology or idioms are used. I sometimes also make idiomatic mistakes, leading to misunderstandings, as I'm not a native English speaker either.

 

Reply to your post:

However, that leaves out an infinite number of possible chronological explanations. If it is assumed that the world is more "logic" if it is young, then what does that mean for future generations? What, in 100,000 years are people to assume? (If we exist then, obviously).

According to this kind of thought, an even younger world is even more "logic" so why stop at some thousand of years? why not 200 years, why not yesterday? If the world is only 200 years old, then humanity was also created 200 years ago.

 One of the requirements behind this idea is that the world was created as a "in medias res" world, in the middle of existence. So, a lot of illusions have been placed, like the one I described above, the calcite deposits. If that is the case, then the world could have been created at ANY time, not just a few thousand years ago.

 

I do have a comment to the last part you wrote, the "monkey" origin. That is a fallacy however you look at it. Humans are, according to the usual classification, primates, but not monkeys. We have the same origin as the great apes, but we are not descendants of the great apes, or any living monkey species - no biologist or palaeontologist make such claims; just because two animals share origin doesn't make one the descendant of the other.

Of course, modern human remains have been found that are presumably 30.000 years old or more, so it isn't really all that relevant.


Edited by Jams - 22-Nov-2008 at 15:15
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 15:24
Originally posted by Jams

If it is assumed that the world is more "logic" if it is young, then what does that mean for future generations? What, in 100,000 years are people to assume? (If we exist then, obviously).

According to this kind of thought, an even younger world is even more "logic" so why stop at some thousand of years? why not 200 years, why not yesterday? If the world is only 200 years old, then humanity was also created 200 years ago.

One of the requirements behind this idea is that the world is created as a "in medias res" world, in the middle of existence. So, a lot of illusions have been placed, like the one I described above, the calcite deposits. If that is the case, then the world could have been created at ANY time, not just a few thousand years ago.


The idea that a young world is more probable is from the POV of a rational God's purposes. From the same POV, this world is not the final destination of humanity.
And from the same POV the world's age coincides with humanity's age. This age could have been 200 years or so but in such case the conscience of the humans would have been affected, they would feel like something very recent, so unimportant.


just because two animals share origin doesn't make one the descendant of the other.


OK, than is animal origin of humans.


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  Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 16:20

Not animal origin - humans are animals in the biological sense, they don't just originate in an animal and then suddenly cease being an animal.

 

Now, that memory thing, nothing that is 200 years old is remembered by anyone. It is just as valid as 5000-6000 years, if the premise is that the apparent age of the world is an illusion. It just appears like the world is older than 200 years. Our 6 x great grandparents simply didn't exist. Same way the fossils never were alive. Same way amber never were tree resin.  Same way the stars light never were under way, but was created on its way. Same way chemical creation of certain crystals never occurred. Same way Greenland and Antarctic ice were never snow. Same way the solar system was created with all that old world evidence included.

Edited by Jams - 22-Nov-2008 at 20:21
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  Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 20:23
Yes, that's what I'm getting at with my "yesterday" suggestion. IF that was the case, then we would have no way of knowing.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 20:43
Yes. That's the central point.
 
The pragmatic reason for rejecting theories of divine causation (of anything, not just the universe) is that it gives up ever 'knowing' in the sense of being able to predict and control what happens in the world (which is how we progress). This is simply because any outcome of any experiment is merely subject to supernatural whim: you cannot therefore ever learn from experiment, which means in effect you can never learn.
 
Which is why it is idiotic to teach creationism in practical schools - even if the creationists are right.
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  Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 21:32
Precisely! Even if true, it is useless. We cannot relate to it in any way at all.
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