Why do Civilizations rise and fall?

I want to propose a theory of civilization that explains the whole process of both history and civilization.  Some claim that the continuing of biological evolution explains how we have managed to accumulate the vast cultural/technological heritage we have built up in the last 40,000 years and why we have been able to grow in such numbers as to now dominate the globe. 

Actually, our smaller brain case, thinner legs, better immunity to certain diseases that biologists claim have wrought tiny changes in our genetic heritage certainly do not explain the historical process, why civilizations rise and fall or why we manage to now dominate the world in such a relatively short time.  Evolution is generally a very slow process.

I propose that the explanation is that there is a SOCIAL evolutionary process going on.  That is, natural selection is going on between social entities.  Of course, this would have to be a different process from biological evolution because no genes would be involved.  So, what WOULD be the hereditary mechanism involved?

I propose to answer that question if others here can accept my functional definitions.  If anyone accepts them, I will happily proceed and logically show you the process that explains the rise and fall of civilizations and the course of history!

I define "society" as "a large body of people bonded into a group larger than the largest hunting/gathering groups we evolved to live in through millions of years of evolution---bonded, that is, by having a common ideological system ("religion")."   In other words, we cannot function in any grouping larger than from about 30 to perhaps 100 people maximum without there being a "religion" (a world-view and way-of-thinking system) that we can identify with and which possesses TERRITORY.  These larger social entities or societies are the social evolutionary MAINSTREAM.

Can anyone counter that?  If not, say so and I will use the above to explain history and the civilizational rise and fall process of social evolution . . .

No, there is really no similarity!  The "meme" theory is about units of culture such as songs, jokes, skills in smelting, every bit of culture as undergoing a natural selection process. 
Thus, better ways and jokes crowd out or select out lesser ones.  So, culture changes.  The meme theory really explains nothing except itself, however.  That is, it explains only the history of only each bit of culture.  You get a fractured view of history that is impossibly complex and leaves us understanding even less than our present recording of history shows has happened.  All this is because, in living forms, evolution has to involve some genetic-like method of retaining what has evolved.  There or no genes or anything functionally resembling them in the meme theory. 

Please show me how the meme theory explains what a civilization is, why it develops, matures, undergoes cycles of rise and fall, and then eventually declines and, as many have in the past, disappears forever (ending up only in museums and history books).  This can all be explained via social evolution---not cultural evolution.

Attempting to produce a theory which explains the course of human history would surely be impossible.

I think it is much more achievable to produce a generalisation which can suggest common characteristics of the rise and fall of civilisations, but which will provide no perfect fit to any situation.

Such a broad generalisation would surely have so many exceptions that it could not be credited as a 'law' or 'theory' of history.

You bet!

Complacency and incompetence at the highest levels of government seem to be a recurring theme in the fall of most civilizations.

Originally posted by opuslola Originally posted by Hrodvitnir9 Complacency and incompetence at the highest levels of government seem to be a recurring theme in the fall of most civilizations. And, the result of 20+ years of such, leaves us in the position we are in today! And, it seems it is about to get much worse! Regards,

Did my post above, which to me seems quite tame, actualy run the other poster from NY away?

I just have to be more careful how I treat new posters!

Well, except for a few bane posts, I have mostly ignored this subject, and it was for a reason.

The opening subject included these words;

"I propose that the explanation is that there is a SOCIAL evolutionary process going on. That is, natural selection is going on between social entities. Of course, this would have to be a different process from biological evolution because no genes would be involved. So, what WOULD be the hereditary mechanism involved?"

In short, I would propose that your premise is wrong! And I respect your view, however I would propose, as an alternative, that it was only upon the ability to read and write, and translate, and copy, and print, words, that caused the explosion we seem to have witnessed over the last "few" thousand years!

And, as the Bible states in one area "and the greatest of these was", "printing"! I just "Love" to write that!



So without the ability to duplicate materials, with few or no mistakes, it took the ability to print numerous duplicate copies of important materials to actually cause the explosion of learning that occured!!!

If you would like to give me some alternative that would better fit, then please do so?

Regards,

Ron

Try books like Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel.

Bang on schedule, here's the Telegraph with, Barack Obama feasts while Rome burns. Do America’s ruling liberal elites think they are the new emperors? by Nile Gardiner, August 4th, 2011. Maybe he also read the Jared Diamond book?
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100099548/obama-feasts-while-rome-burns-do-america%E2%80%99s-ruling-liberal-elites-think-they-are-the-new-emperors/

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Edited by shokdee - 25-Aug-2011 at 01:40