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Remembering King Harold II...
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gcle2003 View Drop Down
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Remembering King Harold II...
    Posted: 17-Oct-2008 at 11:19
Originally posted by Reginmund

While the Normans and Angevins were kings and fiefholders of English lands, I wouldn't call them English.
Personally I wouldn't call the Anglo-Saxons 'English' either. 'English' is what you got when the two groups saw themselves as part of the same people (and spoke the same language).
 
PS. With regard to where the fighting toook place, I like the story where the Anglo-Saxons marching along saw the signpost 'Battle 5 miles' and said 'Great - we're nearly there!' Must be true - you can still see the signpost!
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Posts: 88 		  Quote mazuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2008 at 19:33

Without any hard evidence no one can prove were the battle of hastings took place 100% but we can only go buy what we currently have.
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Posts: 125 		  Quote C.C.Benjamin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2008 at 09:36
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Reginmund

While the Normans and Angevins were kings and fiefholders of English lands, I wouldn't call them English.
Personally I wouldn't call the Anglo-Saxons 'English' either. 'English' is what you got when the two groups saw themselves as part of the same people (and spoke the same language).
 
PS. With regard to where the fighting toook place, I like the story where the Anglo-Saxons marching along saw the signpost 'Battle 5 miles' and said 'Great - we're nearly there!' Must be true - you can still see the signpost!


Well, since they are where the name "England" comes from, I think they personally are the English.  They aren't, however, the Romanised Britons who comprised the indigenous population before them.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2008 at 11:18
*England" comes from land of the Angles. It does not come from 'land of the English'. If you think 'English' means 'Anglo-Saxon' why is, say, Elizabeth I referred to as an 'English' queen?
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Posts: 36 		  Quote Huscarl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2008 at 12:11
I have read that even the later Anglo-Saxons (Angle-land)were beginning to call themselves 'Englisc'
http://www.englistory.co.uk/

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Posts: 88 		  Quote mazuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2008 at 19:32
Well if i am right in thinking the angles came from Angeln a region in germany and their name for what we call england now was "Aenglaland" hence were we got the name England from :) interesting stuff. The saxons were from Lower Saxony. Both these tribes spoke Germanic just like the Jutes, Frisians, Vikings etc (different forms of Germanic of course).
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2008 at 20:55
It doesn't really matter what the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and Danes called themselves. Or even the Romanised Britons that stayed on, and the Normans who came along later.
 
The point is that the nation known to the modern world as the 'English' did not emerge until somewhere after Richard I's reign.
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Posts: 88 		  Quote mazuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2008 at 21:01
Well after centuries of opposing tribes fighting over England it makes sense that "English" only became evolved around his time. Before this era there had never been a stable enough balance and cohabitation of English inhabitants each with their own cultures and ways only after time we became "English" due to the merging and acceptance of our previous history.
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Posts: 36 		  Quote Huscarl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2008 at 22:42
Originally posted by gcle2003

It doesn't really matter what the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and Danes called themselves. Or even the Romanised Britons that stayed on, and the Normans who came along later.
 
The point is that the nation known to the modern world as the 'English' did not emerge until somewhere after Richard I's reign.


Yes it does matter if we're going to be historically correct.

England as a concept was taking form well before the advent of the Normans (even in Normandy!), and many Anglo-Saxon Kings called themselves 'king of the Englisc' (Edgar being the official first).

It was only after 1066 that English died down, then re-emerged centuries later, maybe as late as a nation during the reign of Edward III.
http://www.englistory.co.uk/

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Posts: 88 		  Quote mazuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2008 at 22:45
Good point, although a false statement on their behalf the Ango saxons "kingdoms" were mostly located on the western side of England, Kent/Essex etc wouldn't call them kings of it quite yet lol there were the britons still to fend off who inhabitated most of England still
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2008 at 19:43
Originally posted by mazuk

Well after centuries of opposing tribes fighting over England it makes sense that "English" only became evolved around his time. Before this era there had never been a stable enough balance and cohabitation of English inhabitants each with their own cultures and ways only after time we became "English" due to the merging and acceptance of our previous history.
 
Precisely.
 
It isn't particularly 'historically correct' to call a people by the name they called themselves. There's no mistake in calling the Welsh 'Welsh'  rather than 'Cymri' or whatever, or calling the Basques 'Basques'. What is historically correct is to properly identify and distinguish between different sets of people. To call the people living in England between say 600 and 1000 'English' is confusing because they are not the same people that we call English later on.
 
Moreover the contrary view would mean miscalling Saxons, Danes, Jutes and other inhabitants Angles.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 20-Oct-2008 at 19:51
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Posts: 88 		  Quote mazuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2008 at 19:46

Good to see i got something right then Tongue
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