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What contributed to Europeans becoming dominant?

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What contributed to Europeans becoming dominant?
    Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 11:32
What do they know of England who only England know?
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 11:56
Originally posted by red clay

Pike, you have a Norwegian, a Latvian, a Chilean and who knows who else, all experts on the US.  How dare you as a native born citizen of the US and student of our history, contradict the assembled scholars. TongueBig%20smile


I'm glad we agree on that much.
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 14:04
The best thing they can come up with is saying a couple of the founding fathers might have been subconsciencly influenced by the Natives. But their isn't any kind of record of them mentioning them, but their is records of them discussing Classical Rome and Greeks I believe. It seemed they had a grand view of history, but I personally haven't read anything of them discussing their present day influences.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 15:16
edgewaters:
 
As I recall from the deleted posts, I did not dispute your relation of historical events, I disputed your interpretation of their importance.  Benj Franklin was an admirable and brilliant person, but whatever connection he had, or thought he had, with and among Indian tribes had little or no effect on the Constitutional Convention.
 
It is my opinion, and we disagree, but that is the way I see it. 
 
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 16:46
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

As Huntingdon said, the Western civilization is what it is due to the combination of traits which would be the following:

Huntington is the last of a long line of Western racists/Orientalists. Still, I would really love it if the Western racists/Orientalists (that is majority of the people in the West) would read him. 
 
Now let's tear this argument apart.
 
Classical heritage,
 
In his book he claims that the West has adopted the Greeco-Roman heritage more than other descendants, including the Orthodox. Doesn't have much proof to support this, because, frankly, there isn't any. Self-evidently ridiculous. 
 
separation of secular and ecclesiastical power,
 
This did not happen until late in the West.
 
individualism,
 
I would have said this is vaguely defined, but I can't because it is not even defined. Even if such a thing exists at all, it was only there in the West after enlightenment and political revolutions.
 
pluralism in society,
 
Another vague concept. If this really exited in a political context, it was after the bourgeois revolutions.
 
representative councils,
 
Yet another vague concept. Everyone had some sort of representative council.
 
catholicism and protestantism,
 
Finally something that makes sense. Religion (actually, church) is the only factor which defined the West before the Enlightenment. However, I don't think anyone is retarded enough to claim that West got powerful because of the Catholic church.
 
and the diversity of language.
 
Again, useless in explaining anything as everyone had diversity of language. 
 
All in all, Huntington is full of BS, as others said.
 
However, a West exists today. So what defines it? Christianity, developed economy, bourgeois democracy, OECD and NATO membership (although not all NATO/OECD members are Western), come to mind.
 
What about the West before modernity? It was defined only by religion, as Western Christendom, and as the areas under Western Roman influence.
 
And before that? Like Huntington says there was no West before that. He's right about Rome or Greece not being 'West'.
 
Pluralism?  The West was as much sexist as the most extreme form of Islam today (minus the dress code) until the 20th century!  Victorian and Edwardian notions of women spring to mind.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 16:49
Originally posted by gcle2003

Discontent. Dissatisfaction. The western European peoples (basically we're talking about the countries of the Atlantic and North Sea shores) wanted more than they had: the Chinese were pretty satisfied with themselves.
 
I agree with this by and large.  The West was on teh ascent long before pluralism, institutionalised government etc.  etc. The latter have nothing to do with the West's rise, it was trade and military expansion driven by dissatisfaction at the resources around them.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 17:36
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

.. Benj Franklin was an admirable and brilliant person, but whatever connection he had, or thought he had, with and among Indian tribes had little or no effect on the Constitutional Convention.
...
 
I believe you should study the evidence available once again. From the post of edgewaters, it is quite interesting the following:
 
From the references given by "edgewaters":
 
"John Adams and Thomas Jefferson have left us some additional evidence that the Iroquois and the Iroquois ideals of government may have influenced them. Johansen asserts that Adams, in his book Defence of the Constitution of the United States, discusses the "fifty families of the Iroquois" as a model for the Americans to follow. (Johansen 1998:75) Thomas Jefferson, perhaps the quintessential libertarian in American history, wrote admiringly to John Rutledge during the Constitutional Convention "The only condition on earth to be compared with ours is that of the Indians, where they still have less law than we." (Johansen 1998:75) These are strong words from a man who was no fan of excessive lawmaking.
Iroquois leaders were invited to Independence Hall in 1775 to observe the Continental Congress. They were given positions of honor, indicated by their sleeping quarters in the hall. (Johansen 1998:9.) This bit of history suggests that the Iroquois people were respected, and therefore could have held influence over the thought process of the framers of the emerging American nation"
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  Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 19:35
Originally posted by Reginmund

Originally posted by pinguin

Rather than white it was germanic. A society made of immigrants that came in the rush after the U.S. already existed.


This is true for many places. Prior to European colonialism in Africa, America, India and Australia the Germanic-speaking world was quite small. Go back 3000 years and it's confined to southern Scandinavia. It's been quite an expansion.
 
But we never had any power, it's unfair! (But on the other hand, that makes us more innocent - or maybe not)
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 21:58
pinguin:
 
From what I read of the linked source, I am not convinced.  Your quote references that Adams and Jefferson had respect for the Iroquois (OK), and "the Iroquois ideals of government may have influenced them."  Also, "the Iroquois people were respected, and therefore could have held influence over the thought process of the framers..."
 
What may have and could have been are hardly conclusive.  I also note that the writer of the source states that Iroquois influence is probably subconscious, if present at all, and that the revisionists' theses are not as strong as they would like them to be......that the majority of the framers had little knowledge or understanding of Iroquois culture, and the influences on the Constitution were overwhelmingly European and classical.
 
I reiterate that the attribution of influence on the US Constitution to Native Americans is an academic fad. 
 
      
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2008 at 00:06
Pike:
 
Everywhere in the Americas, Europeans were influenced by the Indigenous peoples. That happened in Quebec, in Canada, in Brazil, in the Caribbean and also in Hispanic America. Why Americans pretend they are the exception?
 
Read "Indian Givers" by Jack Weatherford for more recent references. Everything points out to the idea that the "Founding Fathers" saw the Iroquois Federation as a working model they could study alive. Of course theory came from Europe, but many practical things were found locally.
 
You have to realize pioneers and settlers, when create a new country they find inspiration in the local land, which they start to see as the motherland. It is not so strange they found symbols and ideas in local peoples,more so when some of them where friends.
 
That happened everywhere else in the Americas. I wonder why the United States keep denying Indians had any importance at all. Just a though.
  
 
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2008 at 04:00
Is it not possible that the colonists, seeing the potential for a dangerous war ahead with the British, thought it pragmatic to cultivate the goodwill of the surrounding native Americans through ingratiating behaviour such as invitation to the Continental Congress. Their war could have been serious hampered by hostile natives in their rear.

The last reference provided seems highly speculative in nature, not weighing other possibilities like the one I just mentioned
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2008 at 08:53
Originally posted by Jams

But we never had any power, it's unfair! (But on the other hand, that makes us more innocent - or maybe not)


That's not true, but ever since the end of the early middle ages we've had a tendency to be overshadowed by our neighbours in England, France, Germany and Russia. We have more or less followed the same pattern of behaviour as other Europeans, but the extent has been limited by population and resources. From that POV it's not really a fair comparison to begin with; the Scandinavian kingdoms were more comparable to individual German or French duchies than the sum of them.
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 04:36
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Is it not possible that the colonists, seeing the potential for a dangerous war ahead with the British, thought it pragmatic to cultivate the goodwill of the surrounding native Americans through ingratiating behaviour such as invitation to the Continental Congress.


The English definately wanted to keep on the good side of the Iroqouis, although the Iroqouis were at war with practically all the other native groups (except the ones they'd forced to disarm and submit). They were the most powerful military force in the region up until the revolution.

The revolutionaries may have wanted to stay on good terms, but it was not possible: when the revolution broke out, the ruling council declared that the colonists had broken the covenant chain by taking up arms and were therefore expelled from the Great Peace and under an edict of extermination, as per the Iroqouian constitution. Unfortunately for the Iroqouis, despite the council's decision, they fragmented internally over the question of who to side with, the King or the revolutionaries. They mounted only a few campaigns of extermination against the settlers before the Sullivan Expedition laid waste to the Iroqouian heartland, encountering little resistance due to internal conflict. 
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  Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 10:49
Anyway, it wasn’t just Western Europe, Tsarist Russia expanded in the same way to the east, conquering a rather large area - although it was not densely populated.
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  Quote Chairman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 20:04
Two backwards feudal states, Spain and Portugal, had a leftover class of people whose sole purpose was to expel Muslims and who had little besides a meager country estate.
Exploration was a new opportunity for glory.

It was only after the benefits of exploration were proven that the real powers like England got in on the game.
These are the times...
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