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What contributed to Europeans becoming dominant?

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Al Jassas View Drop Down
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What contributed to Europeans becoming dominant?
    Posted: 24-Oct-2008 at 16:02
Hello to you all
 
Obviously rider you haven't heard of the inquisition, wars of religion and the anti-Catholic and anti-protestant laws that remained on the books till the 20th century in many european countries.
 
The only real reason for wars in Europe was money. Countries fought not for the pope but to enhance the bottom line. When European powers started colonizing, they began with weak and divided but emmensly rich nations. By the 17th century and for the first time in european history, the percentage of rich commoners was higher than that of the royalty or nobility. And innovation always start from the bottom up and their large wealth made them control the nobles and thus the state. But still Europe was, till 1800, pretty much on the same footing as the rest of the world. It was the spread of the industrial revolution that pretty much ensured the position europe now has. If it was the Ottomans, Chinese and the Mughals who took Africa and the Americas the story would have been exactly the opposite but china hated merchants, the mughals were already too rich to bother searching for other riches and the Ottomans, they were busy killing sultans and veziers. Europe on the other hand chose the sea route well before those nations and it was the countries with access to sea that developed first in europe.
 
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2008 at 22:44
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Obviously rider you haven't heard of the inquisition, wars of religion and the anti-Catholic and anti-protestant laws that remained on the books till the 20th century in many european countries.
 
 
Originally posted by rider

As Huntingdon said, the Western civilization is what it is due to the combination of traits...  separation of secular and ecclesiastical power, 
 
The disagreement seems to be due to the following situations:
 
- Theocratic state: political, religious and judicial power were united in one source
 
- States with a single religious identity:  One church serves as the basis for national idenitity / culture. Leaders and traditions of this church have varying degrees of influence in political authority and judicial matters.
 
As rider states, totally theocratic states quickly ceased to exist in Europe. As Al Jassas implies, states with a national religous identity lasted far longer.  The degree of church influence varied from very high (Catholic Spain, Orthodox Russia) to  increasingly nominal and secular Britian, France, Netherlands etc.
 
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas

What Samuel Huntington said is simple BS.
Whatever his other flaws, Huntington is correct in this area. Theocratic societies or socieites with high religious influence tend to distrust the social changes that economic advancement brings (traditional social system ordained by God(s), women have traditional roles, work activities allow plenty of time for religious participation etc.). There are examples of these traits in Christian, Muslim, Buddhist and Confucian societies. Due to religious opposition to change, these socieites usually do not make rapid economic or technical advances.    
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

 
individualism,
 
I would have said this is vaguely defined, but I can't because it is not even defined. Even if such a thing exists at all, it was only there in the West after enlightenment and political revolutions.
The concept of individualism started to develop far before the enlightenment and political revoltions. Individualism developed and expanded with the merchant class.  Another early illustration of individualism is the The Magna Carta.  Sure, some persons were deemed more uhmm... "individual" than others, but the Magna Carta was a huge step from Middle Ages.  


Edited by Cryptic - 24-Oct-2008 at 23:10
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2008 at 02:28

In my opinion:

1. Ming China had an isolationist policy (in 1436 the Emperor banned the construction of ocean-going ships...). This in itself contributed to their lack of development in the modern era, unable to reap the benefits of the dissemination of technology and knowledge from Europe.
2. The Turks simply tried to do too much.  Deploying troops all across the Eastern Mediterranean was too expensive, and that coupled with the lack of free trade and the centralized conservative government made progress slow.
3. Political fragmentation in Europe gave them the advantages needed to become dominant. The consequences of political fragmentation were the diversity of ideas, of economies, and the fierce military competition.  The diversity of ideas in all of the separate European states enabled the development of advanced literature, militaries, governments, and economies.  The diversity of those economies was enforced by the fact that for the earlier part of the era, there was no European hegemon.  This enabled progress in each of the separate states.  And the fierce military competition between the geographically and politically "tenuous" states forced the Europeans to develop new military technologies, strategies, and this lead to a general arms race. The competition stimulated trade and economy, which lead to more money, which lead to more weapons, which lead to more economic leverage/power, etc. It was a cycle.
 
And yes, after 1648 Europe was completely secular.  It introduced the concept of the state as sovereign, and this lead to their development as separate entities, not a tightly-constrained empire under one ruler like the Turks or Chinese.


Edited by haggett - 25-Oct-2008 at 02:30
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2008 at 14:32
Hello to you all
 
Another reason why europe went on to dominate the world is elitism. I don't know the history behind this idea but I read it in a book a very long time ago and it simply says that countries with large percentage of elites is quicker to dominate and reach power.
 
Now these elites are practically highly educated middle class people with total control on low level power as well a high representation in the upper echelons of power in a state. Here I would like to give the example of Japan. When Meji came and transformed the country, Japan already had a higher literacy rate than many European countries, about 40% for both sexes. The primary education the japanese took in their childhood was at a higher caliber than the same education in europe and social dynamics were also quite high but not too high. There was a massive accumilation of fortune in Japan and innovation was always welcom and encouraged. When modern education came the transition was much less violent than any other country and more still, was enthusiastically embraced. Of course other also important factors did help Japan to become a world power by 1905 but without the previous condition one cannot say Japan would have had the same success. Applying this theory to other countries will produce strong similarities.
 
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2008 at 14:52
The Atlantic crossing was much shorter than the Pacific crossing, and Western Europe was poised better than anyone else to take advantage of it.

Once they got there, they had access to huge amounts of land and resources that simply didn't exist in the Old World, in particular, a very large variety of never before seen domesticated plants and animals. They were able to tap into new sources of labour, trade, wealth, land, everything that powers the rising fortunes of a nation.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 12:46

Geoffrey Parker's The Military Revolution: Military Innovation and the Rise of the West 1500-1800 still remains the best introduction to this subject.

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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 14:55
It were several causes:

-the natural medium: temperate climate, variated relief, good waters and food, long coastline that have had an effect on people's abilities to organize themselves better, to think more efficient, by not having the troubles with natural elements as in other zones

-the heritage of experience and infrastructure of the Roman empire which itself inherited from ancient Near East and Greek civilizations


-the Christian religious philosophy that gived the notions of absolute, infinite and transcedental that made people objectify the world.







Edited by Menumorut - 05-Nov-2008 at 17:26

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 23:32
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

As Huntingdon said, the Western civilization is what it is due to the combination of traits which would be the following:

Huntington is the last of a long line of Western racists/Orientalists. Still, I would really love it if the Western racists/Orientalists (that is majority of the people in the West) would read him. 
.... 
And before that? Like Huntington says there was no West before that. He's right about Rome or Greece not being 'West'.
 
For me, Huntington is not a racist but only an idiot LOL
 
Yeap. It is pathetic how he tried to push Latin America outside the Western World. Yeap,our region could be relatively poor in comparison to the "AVERAGE" standard of living of the United States, but it has the same roots than the U.S.!!!!
 
The argument that Latin America was populated by mixed people and the United States by "white" people is even more nonsense now that that country will be governed by a person who is half Kenyan!! What an irony for Mr. wasp Huntington Confused
 
 
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 07:08
Originally posted by pinguin


The argument that Latin America was populated by mixed people and the United States by "white" people is even more nonsense now that that country will be governed by a person who is half Kenyan!! What an irony for Mr. wasp Huntington Confused

 

 

Maybe with that Huntington meant that in Latin America the native populations were more involved in forming new culture and society after Spanish conquest, while in US case the native populations didn't contribute anything and were pushed aside, even eradicated at some places.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 08:32
Originally posted by pinguin

For me, Huntington is not a racist but only an idiot.
 
Yes, that's actually a fairer estimate. His theory is not based on race but people are so fond of waving that particular stick of political correctness around you might find yourself sympathizing with the racists in the end just to annoy these people.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

The argument that Latin America was populated by mixed people and the United States by "white" people is even more nonsense now that that country will be governed by a person who is half Kenyan!! What an irony for Mr. wasp Huntington.
 
That depends though. Mainstream American society up until recent decades was White, with Blacks, Natives, Latinos and so forth representing an "other". It's harder to generalize when it comes to Latin America since you find stark contrasts between regions, for it is certainly true that some Latin American nations are to a large extent mixed, while others tend towards being homogeneous.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 11:33
Originally posted by Roberts

...Maybe with that Huntington meant that in Latin America the native populations were more involved in forming new culture and society after Spanish conquest, while in US case the native populations didn't contribute anything and were pushed aside, even eradicated at some places.
 
In that Mr. Huntington is also wrong. He forgets that in Latin America, Indigenous people were europeized quite early. Latin America was producing barroque music with native lyrics at the time of Bach! If he were a smart guy he would had understand the difference between North America and Latin America is mainly "money" and not "race". In fact, the U.S. is more African than Latin America. The difference is also in religion: a catholic south and a protestant north.
 
In the other hand, he forgot his own history. The United States wouldn't be what is it today without the Native American contribution. Europeans couldn't even survived in the New World without the help of natives that feed them. That's the real meaning of thanksgiving, anyways.


Edited by pinguin - 06-Nov-2008 at 11:35
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 11:40
Originally posted by Reginmund

 .. That depends though. Mainstream American society up until recent decades was White, with Blacks, Natives, Latinos and so forth representing an "other".
 
Rather than white it was germanic. A society made of immigrants that came in the rush after the U.S. already existed.
 
Originally posted by Reginmund

 .. 
It's harder to generalize when it comes to Latin America since you find stark contrasts between regions, for it is certainly true that some Latin American nations are to a large extent mixed, while others tend towards being homogeneous.
 
Yes. Latin America is a complex mosaic
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 11:40
This topic seems to have got mixed up with the thread about why the US became a superpower.
 
Europeans dominated in both North and South America, so I do't see how the distinction between north and south is relevant to the topic.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 12:00
Originally posted by pinguin

Rather than white it was germanic. A society made of immigrants that came in the rush after the U.S. already existed.


This is true for many places. Prior to European colonialism in Africa, America, India and Australia the Germanic-speaking world was quite small. Go back 3000 years and it's confined to southern Scandinavia. It's been quite an expansion.
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 17:29
Originally posted by pinguin


In the other hand, he forgot his own history. The United States wouldn't be what is it today without the Native American contribution. Europeans couldn't even survived in the New World without the help of natives that feed them. That's the real meaning of thanksgiving, anyways.

Can you give some examples how did native Americans contributed to USA?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 17:56
Originally posted by Roberts

...
Can you give some examples how did native Americans contributed to USA?
 
Turkey, rootbeer and Kentucky whiskey would be impossible without Amerindian agriculture. Material goods like sport canoes, snowrackets, mocasins either.
The sport of lacroise would be over.
The constitution of the United States, whose concept of "federal" state was inspired in the Iroquois confederation.
 
 
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 22:56

Pinguin:

This business of the US Constitution being inspired by the Iroquois is unfounded.  The concept of republican government was long established in Europe.  That and the 150 years' experience of colonial governments in administering through the concensus of elites were the determinants.  The adoption of English common law goes to the continuity (rather than revolution) of established European concepts.

Do some research on the Dutch Republic and the way in which both governance and finance were established and refined.  The relationship among the Provinces, the sophistication of both the "repartition system" of common finance in satisfying public policy, and the underlying importance of commerce and credit in making the system possible were crucial in the Constitution's structure.
 
What the Constitution sought to prevent was the overpowering position of importance Holland had in the political life of the United Provinces, and also the effect of Dutch confessionalism through the influence of the Reformed Church.
 
I do not see any Indian influence in the Constitution of the United States.  Concepts of the most elementary societal organization do not differ much regardless of where they are found.  The tribes were not sophisticated enough to address the issues, their customs were limited geographically, and, after the Fr. & In. War, the tribes had little influence on Anglo Americans.  The attribution to Native Americans of such influence is a politically correct fad. 
 
   


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 06-Nov-2008 at 23:14
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 23:39
Originally posted by Klaus Fleming

Geoffrey Parker's The Military Revolution: Military Innovation and the Rise of the West 1500-1800 still remains the best introduction to this subject.

 
Parker's book, as most of his work, is well written and convincingly presented.  The emphasis on technological innovation is clear (Trace Italienne engineering, transoceanic navigation and marine technology, and gunpowder weapons), but there is something else, I think.
 
For whatever reason, Europeans, when they had a perceived advantage, attained most of their desired goals with absolute ruthlessness.  Portuguese fidalgos, Spanish conquistadores, English planters and Dutch traders saw no reason not to leverage their advantages to secure what they came to get.
 
For some time, I have thought that maybe it had something to do with the seafaring nature of the European expansionists.  Anyone who has had experience at sea knows what a dangerous and violent place it can be.  For those who went to sea 500 years ago, it was far more dangerous; a life or death gamble.  A violent environment breeds a violent approach. 
 
If they were to risk all on the open sea, with starvation and disease, if they were to find themselves in a potentially hostile place, far from support or help, their survival was contingent on being feared, and on using what advantage they had to dominate and control who they must to get what they came for.  I don't think you can quantify that, and it is not objective.  As Europeans came to dominate, and as no one seemed able to resist, who was to say at the time that this was not the way it was supposed to be?
 
       
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2008 at 21:48
Originally posted by Roberts

Can you give some examples how did native Americans contributed to USA?


Look into the Albany Conference and the Albany Plan of Union for more information. And the relationship of Benjamin Franklin to the Iroqouis.

This is a topic that is hotly debated in the academic world these days - there are arguments both for and against. You can find a nice overview of both positions here:

http://www.campton.sau48.k12.nh.us/iroqconf.htm

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

This business of the US Constitution being inspired by the Iroquois is unfounded.


You may disagree with the conclusions on how much (if any) influence they exerted but the notion is hardly without basis in a factual historical events (which, based on our previous discussion, it appears you are unfamiliar with). Even critics of the idea acknowledge this much.


Edited by edgewaters - 09-Nov-2008 at 22:10
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2008 at 23:37
Pike, you have a Norwegian, a Latvian, a Chilean and who knows who else, all experts on the US.  How dare you as a native born citizen of the US and student of our history, contradict the assembled scholars. TongueBig%20smile
 
 
 
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