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What contributed to Europeans becoming dominant?

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  Quote cecc44 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What contributed to Europeans becoming dominant?
    Posted: 13-Oct-2008 at 19:49
Hi Guys,

I'm trying to understand what contributed to the Europeans becoming the dominant global empire come the modern era. I understand it has everything to do with their globalization, but what made these global colonial empires sustainable for such a long time? Further, why was it western Europe that started to globalize as opposed to lets say, the Chinese Empire?

Cheers :)
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2008 at 19:54
Discontent. Dissatisfaction. The western European peoples (basically we're talking about the countries of the Atlantic and North Sea shores) wanted more than they had: the Chinese were pretty satisfied with themselves.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2008 at 20:11
The menace of the Turks was a motivation as well.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2008 at 20:15
It should be someone.
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2008 at 20:43
Originally posted by pinguin

The menace of the Turks was a motivation as well.

What menace? For example during various periods of 16th century France and Poland was "ally" of Turkey. It would only be Austrians to whom the Turks would be "menace".
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2008 at 21:07
The menace on Iberia and the monopoly of Eastern commerce started the Age of Discovery
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2008 at 22:59
Originally posted by pinguin

The menace on Iberia and the monopoly of Eastern commerce started the Age of Discovery


Not sure... the Portuguese early discoveries had little to do with the Turks. The Ottoman menace and the costs involved may have payed a marginal role roughly for the 1453-1600 period and only for the Spanish and Portuguese cases. The French, English and Dutch just couldn't care less.

Regarding what have been said about the Chinese not caring, it has to be mentioned that the state and the state-elite did not care. It is likely that some merchants and other classes would have been OK with a global empire but the emperor had no incentive to take the risk. Unlike the European kings, the Chinese emperor did not depend at all on the taxes levied on the merchants' wares, so he was just interested by the peasants' welfare and productivity. The merchants had no leverage on the king. On the other hand, in England, Portugal and the Netherlands, the monarch heavily depended on the revenues coming from the taxes levied on the merchants and thus had a significant interest in seeing the merchant class getting richer.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2008 at 02:00
Originally posted by Roberts

[QUOTE=pinguin] The menace of the Turks was a motivation as well.
 
It might be better to say "the menace of other Western Europeans".  Unlike unified China with no immediate power rivals, Europe was fragmented into many competing powers.  This competition then forced mechants, Kings, and Admirals to innovate or to take business and military risks.  Risk taking and innovation were things that the Chinese power monopoly simply did not have to do. 
 
   


Edited by Cryptic - 14-Oct-2008 at 02:02
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2008 at 03:12
Originally posted by gcle2003

Discontent. Dissatisfaction. The western European peoples (basically we're talking about the countries of the Atlantic and North Sea shores) wanted more than they had: the Chinese were pretty satisfied with themselves.

Precisely that covers the base. Strict competition, too, was a factor in an environment where agriculture strictly improved and a uniform political reality aside from the elusive and practically theoretical Holy Roman Empire barely existed. Plus of course the East Islamic and Chinese states were definitely content and arrogant due to their past achievement. From studies in the Islamic world a lot of source material hints at a rejection of the West's scholars as serious at that moment in time. Perfection as they saw it had been met and the West through Spain and the Crusades and travelogues soaked up information and utilized and worked on various other achievements. Borrowing and improviing existing or flat out inventing.

I also subscrice to Hodgson's "The Great Western Transmutation" theory & essay, which in my opinion presents a good case and effectively describes the changes and conditions that led to Western industrilization.

Unfortunately I do not have an electronic medium of the essay to post.
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  Quote Voskhod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2008 at 11:00
Originally posted by cecc44

Hi Guys,

I'm trying to understand what contributed to the Europeans becoming the dominant global empire come the modern era. I understand it has everything to do with their globalization, but what made these global colonial empires sustainable for such a long time? Further, why was it western Europe that started to globalize as opposed to lets say, the Chinese Empire?

Cheers :)


Aside from competition (which I won't talk about because it's already covered), there's also the population factor. While Europe may not have a lot of people compared to, say, China, it has a high population density. Opportunities within the home countries are limited, and people went overseas to colonies like in North America. Another factor is trade. This is quite important especially if we're talking in Asia. Europe, which needs spices, etc from the East, has a lot to gain bypassing the Muslim middlemen in the Middle East and setting up their own sea-based trade in the Indian Ocean.

The Europeans developed their military and industrial technology, and reform their political structure, very rapidly from around 1600. Until around 1700 most countries in Asia were competible with the Europeans in these respects, but the Europeans has a decisive lead over them by 1800. After 1800 the Europeans began really spreading their power all over the world due to the Industrial Revolution and the advances in weaponry, manufacturing and transport that comes with it.

I recommend reading "Gun, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond. It's a pretty good book on this topic.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 08:19
Originally posted by pinguin

The menace on Iberia and the monopoly of Eastern commerce started the Age of Discovery


Oy, monocausalism alert.

Let's be somewhat more modest and suggest that the "Ottoman menace" provided additional motivation and purpose to European exploration, alongside a number of other factors. Also, by the time that European imperialism reached its height the Ottomans were no longer much of a menace but more of an oriental curiosity.
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 10:56
First of all, there is no such thing as 'Europe'. Portugal, England and Holland had wildly different goals than Venice, Genua or Ragusa. And when the former group got powerful, the latter group got weaker.
 
Ottomans, Venice, Genua, Spain, Ragusa, all had a stake in the Mediterranean trade, and they all tried to keep it going. It is an idiotic Western lie which says that the Ottomans strangled the Med trade. To the contrary. They attacked the Portuguese all the way to India in order to keep it going.
 
Portuguese were the ones who wanted to sabotage the Med trade (they had no port in the Med) and import goods directly from the East. Another reason why the Ottomans went into Egypt and Sudan and the Portuguese went into Western Africa is gold. Europe and the Middle East lacked gold, and the Easterners such as Indians and Chinese traded their products for gold. When the Portuguese got the African gold and went around Africa, they could attract the Eastern trade directly and strangle the Med trade. Ottomans were then forced to expand to Egypt.
 
Threfore it is wrong to say that the Ottoman expansion into Egypt forced 'Europe' into expansion. It was the other way around.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 15:22

I spoke about this today for an hour or so, so I'll post a few of my surviving thoughts, even if they be mentioned here before:

As Huntingdon said, the Western civilization is what it is due to the combination of traits which would be the following: Classical heritage, separation of secular and ecclesiastical power, individualism, pluralism in society, representative councils, catholicism and protestantism, and the diversity of language. 

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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 16:04

Hello to you all

What Samuel Huntington said is simple BS. Japan didn't have any of those condition when it became a world power in the early 1900s. Half of Europe had those qualifications and yet they were as bad as their southern neighbours.

The real answer is simple. It is the economy. when those nations started concerning themselves with trade and their governments became more and more institutionalised rather than being under the whim of the representitive of God on earth then europe took the lead. And with scientific developement this lead grew dramatically.

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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 16:08
the Industrial Revolution is mabey the biggest key to European power since the 19 century
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 17:50
As he said, some of those things may have been elsewhere, but what made West what West is, was the combination of all of them. 
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2008 at 12:35

As Huntingdon said, the Western civilization is what it is due to the combination of traits which would be the following:

Huntington is the last of a long line of Western racists/Orientalists. Still, I would really love it if the Western racists/Orientalists (that is majority of the people in the West) would read him. 
 
Now let's tear this argument apart.
 
Classical heritage,
 
In his book he claims that the West has adopted the Greeco-Roman heritage more than other descendants, including the Orthodox. Doesn't have much proof to support this, because, frankly, there isn't any. Self-evidently ridiculous. 
 
separation of secular and ecclesiastical power,
 
This did not happen until late in the West.
 
individualism,
 
I would have said this is vaguely defined, but I can't because it is not even defined. Even if such a thing exists at all, it was only there in the West after enlightenment and political revolutions.
 
pluralism in society,
 
Another vague concept. If this really exited in a political context, it was after the bourgeois revolutions.
 
representative councils,
 
Yet another vague concept. Everyone had some sort of representative council.
 
catholicism and protestantism,
 
Finally something that makes sense. Religion (actually, church) is the only factor which defined the West before the Enlightenment. However, I don't think anyone is retarded enough to claim that West got powerful because of the Catholic church.
 
and the diversity of language.
 
Again, useless in explaining anything as everyone had diversity of language. 
 
All in all, Huntington is full of BS, as others said.
 
However, a West exists today. So what defines it? Christianity, developed economy, bourgeois democracy, OECD and NATO membership (although not all NATO/OECD members are Western), come to mind.
 
What about the West before modernity? It was defined only by religion, as Western Christendom, and as the areas under Western Roman influence.
 
And before that? Like Huntington says there was no West before that. He's right about Rome or Greece not being 'West'.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2008 at 13:53
The concept of the West developed in extension of the concept of Christendom, so yes, it was originally defined by religion. Christendom developed in extension of the classical heritage, partly, but one cannot ignore the influence of the cultures it encompassed, especially that of the Germanic tribes. The Christianity that developed in western Europe during the early middle ages was a compromise between Judeo-Roman religion and Germanic tradition.

Separation between church and state occurred in the high middle ages, during the peak of Papal power, but dissipated towards the later middle ages when faced with the increasingly strong states. Protestantism eclipsed it completely. This is why I find it a bit contradictory that Huntington uses both protestantism and the separation of church and state to define the West.

Individualism cannot be said to have been a defining factor. Until very recently Western nations stressed conformity, you need only go a few generations back. Pluralism in society and representative councils are very wide terms, you could probably find something that fits in all cultures. Diversity of language can hardly be said to have been a unique trait either; neither China, the Ottoman empire or India were monolingual.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2008 at 15:40
Beylerbey, you are quite wrong. The Western lands, or what we call them, have been known to keep the secular and ecclesiastical powers separate, and not only in the recent times. This began long ago, from the Imperial Roman times and such. 
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2008 at 15:53
Originally posted by rider

This began long ago, from the Imperial Roman times and such. 
What institutions do you refer to?
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