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The Future of Pakistan?

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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Future of Pakistan?
    Posted: 11-May-2009 at 23:35
Originally posted by Leonidas

Heres a question, what if Pakistan crumbles.....
 
Although Pakistan has crumbled before, the precedent being Bangladesh, there is little(very) chance yet in spite of the prevalent conditions.


Edited by malizai_ - 11-May-2009 at 23:37
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 12:55
Originally posted by Leonidas

Heres a question, what if pakistan crumbles.....

Pakistan won't crumble. That would mean India has won. I have thought that the only thing keeping Pakistan together for the last 20 years was a refusal to let India win, and it will continue to work.

The Taliban can't take and rule Pakistan without making serious ideological changes. Pakistan is too diverse and too chaotic. A better question is what will Pakistan do to the Taliban?
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2009 at 14:38
Omar I've been wondering what the average Pakistani feels about the Taliban. Prior to the current backwash it seemed to me that the Taliban were given sympathy, especially since they were partially a creation of Pakistan and got much of their recruits from within Pakistan. Now that the tables have turned is there more animosity towards the Taliban? BTW, I don't mean to sound more then just a curious observer. 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 09:03
That's a good question really. As I said above, Pakistan is incredibily diverse, and as such there will be an incredible range of opinions.

If we look at wealthy Pakistanis, defined as those who can afford a decent education. This minority will be pretty well opposed to the Taliban, but not to the extent that westerners might usually expect. That is to say they oppose them, but also understand them, and when discussing with someone who doesn't that understanding may make them sound more pro-Taliban than is actually true.
Even in this group which has the most to loose from the Taliban they are unlikely to be seen as an ultimate evil, rather just another form of bad government.

As people get poorer they become less educated and I'd expect statistically are more likely to think better of the Talibs. Less educated people are far less likely to understand global ideas or opinions, and far more likely to support Taliban ideology even if not the Taliban themselves. Really poor & uneducated people are not likely to think badly of the Taliban at all, they will be considered forigners (at least in Sindh & Punjab) but they really don't have much to fear from them.

Last time my dad was in Pakistans he was talking to the Dhobi (washerman) I think. The Dhobi started the conversation and asked my dad what bricks were used in America. My dad replied that he'd never been to America and didn't know. The Dhobi was surprised because he knew that my dad had come from an Aeroplane, and therefore was an American. From his point of view everyone who came from an Aeroplane, drove a good car, owned a walled house, was an American. The Dhobi proceeded to explain the War on Terror as being a fight between the Americans and the foriegners - where foriegners where Afghans, Iranis, Arabs, and other non-Pakistanis living in Pakistan. He didn't think the war had much to do with the average Pakistani, but did say that "We might have to deal with the Americans". That is to say, his demographic of poor Pakistanis may have to teach the Pakistani rich & actual Americans a lesson in the future.
So for him at least the Taliban were foreign, but not as bad as the rich/westerners (westerners and Paki rich being equivalent in his view). I understand his point too, the Pakistani elite have caused much more suffering to ordinary Pakistanis than the Taliban threaten to.

If anyone else wishes to correct me on anything feel free to do so.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 13-May-2009 at 09:05
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  Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 16:08
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

That's a good question really. As I said above, Pakistan is incredibily diverse, and as such there will be an incredible range of opinions.

If we look at wealthy Pakistanis, defined as those who can afford a decent education. This minority will be pretty well opposed to the Taliban, but not to the extent that westerners might usually expect. That is to say they oppose them, but also understand them, and when discussing with someone who doesn't that understanding may make them sound more pro-Taliban than is actually true.
Even in this group which has the most to loose from the Taliban they are unlikely to be seen as an ultimate evil, rather just another form of bad government.

As people get poorer they become less educated and I'd expect statistically are more likely to think better of the Talibs. Less educated people are far less likely to understand global ideas or opinions, and far more likely to support Taliban ideology even if not the Taliban themselves. Really poor & uneducated people are not likely to think badly of the Taliban at all, they will be considered forigners (at least in Sindh & Punjab) but they really don't have much to fear from them.

Last time my dad was in Pakistans he was talking to the Dhobi (washerman) I think. The Dhobi started the conversation and asked my dad what bricks were used in America. My dad replied that he'd never been to America and didn't know. The Dhobi was surprised because he knew that my dad had come from an Aeroplane, and therefore was an American. From his point of view everyone who came from an Aeroplane, drove a good car, owned a walled house, was an American. The Dhobi proceeded to explain the War on Terror as being a fight between the Americans and the foriegners - where foriegners where Afghans, Iranis, Arabs, and other non-Pakistanis living in Pakistan. He didn't think the war had much to do with the average Pakistani, but did say that "We might have to deal with the Americans". That is to say, his demographic of poor Pakistanis may have to teach the Pakistani rich & actual Americans a lesson in the future.
So for him at least the Taliban were foreign, but not as bad as the rich/westerners (westerners and Paki rich being equivalent in his view). I understand his point too, the Pakistani elite have caused much more suffering to ordinary Pakistanis than the Taliban threaten to.

If anyone else wishes to correct me on anything feel free to do so.
Very well stated, I guess you have just summarized a very big theory into few paragraphs.
The poor people on on both sides (AF-PK) has always been suppressed either by their own government or by foriegn powers.
That's what brings in an idealogy of change in mentality of these section of the sociaty, these people don't realy want Taleban or any other fundamentalists but only want a change in their own way of life, now whether it is in the name of Taleban or Mujahideen, when ever the people of this region has seen that suppression has crossed the limits they have stood against the authority and have brought changes.
 
If you provide them something better than what Taleban can, for sure they will support you. These people are like children who will run to who ever has the chocolate.
 
You see back in Taleban's gov shop keepers used to go for prayers, keeping their shops open bacause no one dare to pick up a penny or a thing, while now the foriegner who have came in the name of bettering that situation, themselves lives behind barricades. When people go out of their home they don't believe that they may come back.
So what do you think, whom will these people prefere without knowing how bad the Taleban could be to the rest of the world (as thought by west).
 
You know it was back in 1980s and 90s when the US did the same, they used Afghans against the Soviets and once they got their job done they said now we are safe so let the Afghans die, same thing is with these people they say if we are living in a better condition then let the world burn, who cares (a simple mentality of a poor person who don't even know how to manage feed his family at the end of the day).
 


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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 16:56
I stand in appreciation to both of your answers Omar and Gharanai. I did think that there had existed a self-interest (as understood in a realistic and not moralist fashion) in sponsoring or supporting the Taliban. After reading your posts the support they receive is dependant on the type of Pakistani or Afghan you are; whether you live in a centralised city or at border regions for instance. My next question - If the Taliban were about to overrun not only Swat but regions further south, how would you feel about them?
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2009 at 19:24
It interests me that Omar's description of the situation is not unlike the split in attitudes of the Russian people to the Communist era.
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 02:28
Originally posted by Gharanai

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

That's a good question really. As I said above, Pakistan is incredibily diverse, and as such there will be an incredible range of opinions.

If we look at wealthy Pakistanis, defined as those who can afford a decent education. This minority will be pretty well opposed to the Taliban, but not to the extent that westerners might usually expect. That is to say they oppose them, but also understand them, and when discussing with someone who doesn't that understanding may make them sound more pro-Taliban than is actually true.
Even in this group which has the most to loose from the Taliban they are unlikely to be seen as an ultimate evil, rather just another form of bad government.

As people get poorer they become less educated and I'd expect statistically are more likely to think better of the Talibs. Less educated people are far less likely to understand global ideas or opinions, and far more likely to support Taliban ideology even if not the Taliban themselves. Really poor & uneducated people are not likely to think badly of the Taliban at all, they will be considered forigners (at least in Sindh & Punjab) but they really don't have much to fear from them.

Last time my dad was in Pakistans he was talking to the Dhobi (washerman) I think. The Dhobi started the conversation and asked my dad what bricks were used in America. My dad replied that he'd never been to America and didn't know. The Dhobi was surprised because he knew that my dad had come from an Aeroplane, and therefore was an American. From his point of view everyone who came from an Aeroplane, drove a good car, owned a walled house, was an American. The Dhobi proceeded to explain the War on Terror as being a fight between the Americans and the foriegners - where foriegners where Afghans, Iranis, Arabs, and other non-Pakistanis living in Pakistan. He didn't think the war had much to do with the average Pakistani, but did say that "We might have to deal with the Americans". That is to say, his demographic of poor Pakistanis may have to teach the Pakistani rich & actual Americans a lesson in the future.
So for him at least the Taliban were foreign, but not as bad as the rich/westerners (westerners and Paki rich being equivalent in his view). I understand his point too, the Pakistani elite have caused much more suffering to ordinary Pakistanis than the Taliban threaten to.

If anyone else wishes to correct me on anything feel free to do so.
Very well stated, I guess you have just summarized a very big theory into few paragraphs.
The poor people on on both sides (AF-PK) has always been suppressed either by their own government or by foriegn powers.
That's what brings in an idealogy of change in mentality of these section of the sociaty, these people don't realy want Taleban or any other fundamentalists but only want a change in their own way of life, now whether it is in the name of Taleban or Mujahideen, when ever the people of this region has seen that suppression has crossed the limits they have stood against the authority and have brought changes.
 
If you provide them something better than what Taleban can, for sure they will support you. These people are like children who will run to who ever has the chocolate.
 
You see back in Taleban's gov shop keepers used to go for prayers, keeping their shops open bacause no one dare to pick up a penny or a thing, while now the foriegner who have came in the name of bettering that situation, themselves lives behind barricades. When people go out of their home they don't believe that they may come back.
So what do you think, whom will these people prefere without knowing how bad the Taleban could be to the rest of the world (as thought by west).
 
You know it was back in 1980s and 90s when the US did the same, they used Afghans against the Soviets and once they got their job done they said now we are safe so let the Afghans die, same thing is with these people they say if we are living in a better condition then let the world burn, who cares (a simple mentality of a poor person who don't even know how to manage feed his family at the end of the day).
 
 
I read the above post twice and still feel pricked by the notion that there exists an underlying semi-revolutionary current opposed to the detached elite and americanism. I will except maybe to a degree the Baloch and Pakhtun. I feel the bulk of Pakistanis are somewhat conditioned to the anarchy and abusive authority that surrounds them. Why else would they continually elect and support the same old corrupt overlords, feudals and elite that they are supposedly dismayed with. Even the one man from the judiciary who stood up for the down trodden wasn't extended sufficient support by the common man, who's party centric attitude prevents him in acting in the capacity of a citizen. Just look to the president, a man one wouldn't trust to change the tyre on his car lest he ran away with it. When people were voting for the PPP they were well aware of the American political investment in the leadership of the party, but it never obstructed anyone, so how can they be anti American. Ignorance can't be pleaded anymore because of access to multitude of independent news media and wide ranging coverage that keeps even the nomad in touch with current affairs. So i will quote Umar bin al-khataab: A govt is a reflection of its people. The following story comes to mind as an illustration; where a King argued with his minister about the strength of charachter of his subjects, the minister thought that the King had too much faith in his people. So the King devised a plan to prove his point. He boasted to the minister that his people would never tolerate oppression and injustice, as such he decreed that the taxes be raised with immediate effect. This caused the people difficulty but they persevered and uttered not a word. Hmmn...thought the King, it wasn't enough, so he raised them a bit further. Again, time passed, no real outcry and the people plodded along to their daily business. The king was taken aback, this is not what he expected. So to add to their hardship he ordered them to give a number from there daily hours to work at the mine just outside the city. Time passed and the king was really disheartened and shy of his minister, when suddenly he thought of something that might just do the trick. He ordered his soldiers to hit the citizens on the head with shoes as they crossed the bridge leading out of the city to the mine. The next evening he went to the bridge to observe the effect of his decree in a somewhat hopefull mood. Once there he saw a long line of people getting the treatment as they crossed the bridge in a pretty orderly fashion, but suddenly there was some commotion and two men broke from the back of the line and rushed at the soldiers. Excited by this the king too rushed to get close to the action, only to see the men stop and implore the soldiers to hit them first as they had to later fetch some livestock from the nearby village before dark. -A peoples condition does not change unless they change it themselves.
 
The other thing i do not understand is how the US can be held responsible for the fall out of the post soviet era. The Afghans and the Pakistanis used the US out of their own self interest, as the US did conversely. I mean they weren't obliged to rebuild  the country or assist in any way, allthough it may have been the prudent thing to do.  It was a simple marriage of convenience. I think the two nations are as much in the habit of short term fixes as the US. I wonder what will happen if the taliban were to shift into the Punjab or other major cities, will the US continue to swat the Taliban fly where ever it sits on the body of Pakistan, and at what point will Pakistanis say stop! hmmn...let's rethink this.
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  Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 08:57
@Malizai_
Good example and to be honest I agree with you that the people also have to change their mentality and way of life, but the sad tradition is that we in Afghaistan always follow a path to the extream, I mean when Communism came we implemented more than any other communist country in the world, same with Sharia Laws of Islam we followed it to the extreams that Suadi Arabai itself didn't and now same is going on with the Democracy, people are following and implementing it to the extreams that is not even available in US and Europe.
 
And as far as I think (regarding Taleban in Punjab) the US strategy may have just changed and is now considering to stablize Afghaistan (by a Karzai-Taleb gov) and make a new battlefield to the east so to get a step closer to India and China.
Which is supported by the corrupt Pakistani government and who is selling their land and people in return for dollars.
 
As far as the people of Pakistan is concerned, majority of them don't like US and will support ANYONE who apposes the US, which means certainly the Taleban.
So there is going to be anotehr bloodsheed in the region while the American Arms Dealers are spending billions of dollars for this to happen ASAP.


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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 14:20
some brilliant post all round thanks; Omar, Malizia and Gharani
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 15:10
Yes indeed Malizai, a peoples condition will not change unless they change it themselves. This is a most powerful mindset. One has to believe that they have a purpose to fight for and that they are willing to sacrifice for that purpose. From basic necessities to needs more sophisticated, the people of the area are seemingly now in a clash of needs, survival and even ideology. I think, had the US not been involved in Afghanistan the Taliban still would be more than welcome by Pakistan. But, does there eventually come a point of resistence from Pakistan itself? When will the collective spirit say we are either for the"Taliban" or we are something else, and 'that' something else is opposed to them? If for nothing else then for the sake of territorial integrity and a system of government dear to you. I do believe that Pakistan does need to re-evaluate her prerogatives and figure out what her goals should be. Who it identifies with. Going back to my unanswered question:  If the Taliban were about to overrun not only Swat but regions further south, how would you feel about them?  This question can't be avoided. Muslims of the area can't continously say we give up because they are muslims too. That is not how survival works. If you are being attacked you have a right to defend yourselves. If you create mischief you will face the consequences. If your house is not in order someone will come and build a new house, for themselves, where yours used to stand.

As numerous civilians are fleeing. Pakistan is in a crisis of close to one million internally displaced people. Swat and Dir provinces have seen the brunt of it.

If I were Pakistan my geopolitical strategy would be to invest in massive media prop and gain civil support for the military as every Taliban stronghold is pounded. While this is going on the government should clamp down on religious schools in the Northwest, thus diminishing raw fanatical recruits.


Edited by Seko - 14-May-2009 at 16:08
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 15:58
Originally posted by Gharanai

So there is going to be anotehr bloodsheed in the region while the American Arms Dealers are spending billions of dollars for this to happen ASAP.
Why do you think the Afghan market is big enough or important enough for US (or any other) arms dealers to invest billions of dollars in it?
 
Sometimes you seem to lose complete touch with reality. Even with heroin Afghanistan doesn't have enough money to excite a major arms dealer, and the minor ones don't have billions of dollars.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 16:37
Hello to you all
 
First of all, claiming all Pakistanis support the Taliban or even a majority of them who live in areas affected by them is totally wrong. I know people from all over Pakistan except the Northern territories and they don't like Taliban and many even hate them except one or two. I know a guy from Swat, not a professor or a wealthy businessman but a taxi driver who hates them beyond description and he was blaming us Saudis for strenthening them and even outright support.
 
If the Taliban were that popular they would have won again the 2008 provincial elections in NWFP but they lost and lost and guess who won? The most secular of all Pakistan mainstream parties the PPP. This is their position in what is supposed to be their base. In other regions of Pakistan their support is minimal to nothing. Punjabis don't care about the situation there nor Sindhis who are about 80% of the people in Pakistan.
 
The problem in Pakistan is the government failed to step in and stop them when it should have done back in 2001-2002 and even 2000 when the problems really began. It left these areas unchecked, refused to believe the danger coming and growing from those areas and when Musharraf began to take action the same people who are leading the attacks today cried foul then and even gave full support to the Talibans and their sympathyzers.
 
As for the Taliban bringing security and what not, the Taliban way to achieve this was effective and it was to punish any suspect regardless if he was guilty or not. If people left their shops open during prayer time it is because Taliban killed people who dared walk in the market during prayer time in the first place. The same situation exited in pre 2003 Iraq when Saddam did practically the same policies and they worked.
 
Pakistan will not fall and the situation there is definitely not bleak, India on average is a much worse place to live in than Pakistan yet India is smart, people don't hear about Bihar or Jharkhand but they hear about Bombay and the other glittering cities of India.
 
Finally, over 1 million people fled the fighting, if they really wanted the Taliban you would have seen them already in Peshawar and Mardan but they were fought off from Buner largely by the people themselves and then with the help of the Pak army. You would have found tens of thousands volunteering in their ranks but this didn't happen. People began to flee well before the operation started.
 
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 17:50
I don't know where you get off with your cemented generalizations saying that all Pakistanis supporting the Taliban is wrong dear Al-Jassas. From my understanding it is correct to assume that previous Pakistani governments and a wide spectrum of Pakistani society did indeed support their own creation - the Taliban. Maybe you mean over the last year and not the previous ten. Surely the recent upheavals in both societies have changed matters. And...that is what I'm trying to find out. How the current Paksitani or Afghan on AE feels about this. Not long ago in this very thread Omar stressed:  I think there are Islamist sympathies, and a lack of other options. Democracy has been tried and failed, military coups have been tried, but aren't sufficient, there is probably a lot of people thinking why not give the Taliban a go? He also stated: In Pakistan I have always been pro-military. Especially now only a dictatorship can provide a viable alternative to the Taliban.
 
In case someone has missed one of the underlying gists of this arguement, I do believe that there does exist a passive, laissez faire mentality in Pakistan. Especially when:  People have issues fighting against their own people, which was also brought up by Omar. This is nothing new. The same problems have existed and are faced by many other countries the world over. Any time a society at large caves into stagnation and pacivity they have already lost the first battle. There enemies broke down the gates, sort of speak. You reap what you sow. Best to know who the enemy is and confront them at every opportunity. Still, destiny is within each person's heart to find. As has already been hinted at in this thread but not said - You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
 
I still think Pakistan can win this round but its the future rounds that need utmost diligence. A clear vision is necessary so that the majority can identify with and support. One that's is beneficial to future geopolitical interests.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2009 at 19:06
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Gharanai

So there is going to be anotehr bloodsheed in the region while the American Arms Dealers are spending billions of dollars for this to happen ASAP.
Why do you think the Afghan market is big enough or important enough for US (or any other) arms dealers to invest billions of dollars in it?
 
Sometimes you seem to lose complete touch with reality. Even with heroin Afghanistan doesn't have enough money to excite a major arms dealer, and the minor ones don't have billions of dollars.
 
It is an emotional position.  As stated elsewhere, great powers that have come to Afghanistan for a reason (almost always gepolitical) have always left when it became apparent that Afghanistan was not worth the trouble.  The "Afghan market" is not important enough to interest any investment.
 
 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2009 at 03:17

Originally posted by Seko

If the Taliban were about to overrun not only Swat but regions further south, how would you feel about them?

I think that this would be very difficult for them to do. In order to move into other regions, with different cultures, and different political structures they would have to become a good deal more flexible than they currently are. I've already asked this question twice in this thread, how will the Taliban cope with Pakistan.

What I personally think about them would depend on how they change, what they do, and how they come to power. Because I can't see them making big inroads with their current mindset, and I can't see them making big inroads into regions where the Army enjoys popular support.

Originally posted by gcle

It interests me that Omar's description of the situation is not unlike the split in attitudes of the Russian people to the Communist era.

I wouldn't be surprised if underlying issues were similar with just a different outward projection (ideology)
Originally posted by Malizai

I read the above post twice and still feel pricked by the notion that there exists an underlying semi-revolutionary current opposed to the detached elite and americanism. I will except maybe to a degree the Baloch and Pakhtun. I feel the bulk of Pakistanis are somewhat conditioned to the anarchy and abusive authority that surrounds them. Why else would they continually elect and support the same old corrupt overlords, feudals and elite that they are supposedly dismayed with.

A government is a reflection of its people, but it is far from being a perfect image. If we run with this notion too far then revolutions would never occur. A government or succession of governments probably better reflects what people agree upon, or are used to, which given that the military is about the only functioning arm of the government in Pakistan we could deduce that the only thing that Pakistanis really agree upon is resisting India. Don't go and publish a paper on that deduction but there is probably some truth in it somewhere.

Furthermore, and this applies to Al Jassas too, I'd be extremely hesitant before I said that elections in Pakistan represent anything in particular. I would say they are rigged, but they certainly aren't that well organised, they definitely aren't representative. If there are 180 million people in Pakistan, 58% of voting age, we have about 120 million voters, 50% literacy, 60 million voters, then huge voter apathy, perceived and actual corruption, polling booths are certainly not a safe place either, were looking at maybe 20-30 million.
Official figures (http://www.idea.int/vt/country_view.cfm?CountryCode=PK) say 80 million registered and 35 million voters, but official figures are subject to so much fraud I don't put much trust in them. Either way you're looking at about 150 million people, or 90 million adults (75-80%) totally unrepresented in elections.
And before anyone says that's a similar proportion to America (60 million voters, 300 million people) in America there is no demographic bias, or at least very little. In Pakistan there is an enormous demographic bias, your looking at tens of millions of illiterate people for instance. 
Not mentioning that Zamidars (Lords) usually control the ID cards and therefore the votes of their surfs. Showing Sindh votes PPP doesn't mean average Sindhis vote PPP, it means the PPP voters control enough of the votes.

Elections in Pakistan are no way of gauging what people think.

Originally posted by Seko

But, does there eventually come a point of resistence from Pakistan itself? When will the collective spirit say we are either for the"Taliban" or we are something else, and 'that' something else is opposed to them?

Groups inside Pakistan will frequently do that, I can't think of a time when a whole subcontinent nation has ever done that though. There are so many different agendas getting them all to agree on something is like herding cats.
If I were Pakistan my geopolitical strategy would be to invest in massive media prop and gain civil support for the military as every Taliban stronghold is pounded. While this is going on the government should clamp down on religious schools in the Northwest, thus diminishing raw fanatical recruits.

If the government was sufficently organised and just, and did things like provide basic services, even Mullah Omer would leave the Taliban.
Originally posted by Al Jassas

If people left their shops open during prayer time it is because Taliban killed people who dared walk in the market during prayer time in the first place.

That's true. My uncle has a mate who (during Taliban times) had some buisness in Kabul. He drove there in one stretch got there early in the morning and went to sleep in his car. At midday he was woken up by a Talib knocking on his window with an assult rifle telling him it was time for Friday Prayer. He didn't dare not go.
Originally posted by Seko

In case someone has missed one of the underlying gists of this arguement, I do believe that there does exist a passive, laissez faire mentality in Pakistan.

Exactly



Edited by Omar al Hashim - 15-May-2009 at 03:25
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2009 at 09:43

Hello Omar

Well while your right about elections not being a perfect gauge all over Pakistan, I think in NWFP they are. It has the most dynamic provincial assembly in all of Pakistan and the PPP or the muslim league doesn't have the same grip as other provinces. Because of this I think that elections can tell us at least something about the situation there.

The problem of the state in Pakistan is that it never really tried to exert its influence outside the big cities. The countryside is outside their control and this was for political reasons. What makes everything worse is that when one challanges the status quo (Mukhtar Bibi for example) the parties no matter how different they are side with the zamindars and the fuedal lords. The Taliban in their advance in NWFP used this as one of their main propaganda methods even though the situation there is much better than other parts of Pakistan. Every one is Taliban in their eyes and it is the idea that unites them not blood and when someone breaks this they break with them.
 
Pakistan needs two things, either a political party that is willing to exert influence outside the cities or a Saddam like dictator who distroyes the entire political system and uses brute force to bring the state to the countryside. Either way this is the only way Pakistan will ever break this damned cycle.
 
A toothless state is not going to survive in the wild.
 
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  Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2009 at 16:04
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Gharanai

So there is going to be anotehr bloodsheed in the region while the American Arms Dealers are spending billions of dollars for this to happen ASAP.
Why do you think the Afghan market is big enough or important enough for US (or any other) arms dealers to invest billions of dollars in it?
 
Sometimes you seem to lose complete touch with reality. Even with heroin Afghanistan doesn't have enough money to excite a major arms dealer, and the minor ones don't have billions of dollars.
Dear gcle,
I am sorry for not clearifying my comment in the first place but I guess I mentioned the word "region" and within that region comes the biggest importers of American made weaponary (The Middle East) and I am sure that you won't NOW claim that they (The Middle East) too don't have enough stockpile of money and markets for a deal with the US.
 


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