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Why is it called, "Indo"-European?

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  Quote Dari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why is it called, "Indo"-European?
    Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 02:23
Where does that part of the lingustic traits derive it's name from? Where's the Indo in Indo-European langauges?


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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 02:34
Geographic spread, they range from Europe to India, but do not necessarily include all languages from Europe/India or everything inbetween.

Most language families have similar geographical range names - Nilo-Saharan, Niger-Congo, Afro-Asatic, Austroasatic (meaning South Asian), and so on.
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  Quote Dari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 02:50
Oh. Is there any other reason that a geo-sociological explanation?


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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 03:01
Originaly, no as far as i'm aware.
The name was coined shortly after the idea of a large language super-family linking the (then) studied classical languages of Greek, Latin, Persian and Sanskrit, back in the 1700s.
Though i think it nearly had a different, more classical sounding name, most people back then were obsessed with classical studies to the degree that people schooled in England knew more about ancient Rome than medival England, so all things classical were seriously 'in', indeed, the obsession with classical studies is what allowed people to make the connection between the languages in the first place IIRC.

In German it was traditionaly called 'Indo-Germanic', but not anymore AFAIK, no idea why they called it that.


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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 06:16

You don't actually live in Vatican City do you? ? ?

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 06:23
No, i just work there.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 12:44

Originally posted by Cywr

No, i just work there.

Are you a priest?!

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 18:24
Yeah, but i'm thinking of applying for an opening as a Mullah in Iran, i hear the pay is better, i hope my qualifications are in order, they don't have choir boys over there though



Do i really need to put a 'j/k' tag here, and edit one in to my earlier post too?


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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 18:45
lololol
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 21:59
It is interesting to know that one of the Greatest Mullahs, author of several Islamic books which are taught in hauzah (the religious seat of learning in Shiite circles), was Fakhroleslam (the honor of Islam), he was an Assyrian who was born in a church in the city of "Church Kandi" in north west Iran, in youth he went to Vatican City and spent a long part of his life there, he had received the title of saint in Vatican but he came back Iran and became a muslim and then a Mullah and mullahs gave the title of Fakhroleslam to him!
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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 08:10
Well, there are relationships between Islam, Christianity and Judaism.  Most muslims regard Allah ('God') as the same as Yahweh, the God of Abraham, and thus of the Jews and Christians.  Their type of monotheism is basically the same (God makes a convenant with a chosen people, speaks directly through a prophet to lead them to His kingdom, and orders them to follow only His commandments).  That might account for how quckly the conversion could be made in these cases.

   (But, not being a practicing Christian myself, I have no knowledge of any of this.  Only the historical record concerning how the Roman and Greek churches influenced their associated nations.)

   Speaking of the "Indo-" question, it seems to be generally acknowledged that the "Aryans" of Persian-Indian history were of the IE linguistic group.  Though the theory that they originated from Anatolia (modern Turkey) is being challenged, the theory has them making a migration around the northern steppes above the Black Sea and then descending onto the Iranian plateau and, thus, upon the Indian subcontinent.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 00:02

They certainly didn't have to originate in Anatolia for them to migrate to Iran and India.  The Zend Avesta, originally written in an early form of Iranian, makes reference to an original homeland of the Aryans, (Airyas in Avestan) as Airyanem Vaejah, the "abode of the Aryans" locate along the ancient course of the Oxus (modern, Amu Darya), roughly about the region of the classical Iranian-speaking country of Chorasmia.  In addition to the Airyas, the Avesta made reference to Sairimas and Turas located west and east of the ancient Airyas, respectively.  The Sairimas are seen as the classical Sarmatians, and so were also Iranians.  The Turas (or Tiuryas) are seen as eastern Iranian nomads, perhaps the Sakas.  In either case, although all would be considered Indo-Iranians, only those sedentrary populations located south of the Aral Sea were considered "Aryans". 

The name was certainly used amongst the Medes and Persians.  Herodotus relates that the original name of the Medes was the "Arians".  Darius wrote that he was an "Aryan, of Aryan seed", and even referred to the Persian language as "Aryan".  The languages or dialects of the Iranians of Iran were apparently referred to as collectively "Aryan".  King Kanishka of the Kushans referred to the language of the Bactrians as "Aryan". 

Now, the region said by the Zend Avesta to be the original "abode of the Aryans" coincides with the appearance from Kazakhstan of a central Asian culture known as the Andronovo Culture (c. 1400 BC) and which locally is known as the Tazagabyab Culture.  It seems no coincidence that the region possessed by the Bronze Age Andronovo Culture was in historical times the abode of Iranic speaking tribes such as the Sarmatians, Issedonians, Massagetians, and Sakas, as well as south of the Aral Sea by the Chorasmians, Sogdians, and Bactrians.

We can still go further back.  The origin of the Andronovo Culture was in the Yamnaya Cultural Complex (c. 3600-2200 BC) of the Pontic-Caspian stepee.  The latter was the last phase of the Kurgan tradition, begun about 4500 BC and perhaps the original culture of the IE's.  We can then perhaps see in the eastern portion of the Yamnaya Culture the origin of the proto-Indo-Iranian speakers. and the proto-Aryans in particular. 

While some will view the Aryans as a myth, just from ancient Iranian sources do we find that the name does take on a cultural and linguistic identity.  Aryans were an Indo-Iranic speaking sedentary (non-nomadic) population.

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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 21:32
By the way, the IE group doesn't just stop from Europe to India.  In fact lots of languages in Central Asian, East-turkistan (a.k.a. xingjing, china), mongolia even Korea claims that they are related to the IE group.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 21:47
Well, the only groups in the Xinjiang region which are recognized as being IE were the ancient and extinct Saka and Tocharian languages.  Thus far there is no proof that IE was spoken in Mongolia or Korea. 
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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2004 at 16:36

Tocharian isn't really ancient (well, by Chinese standards).  Though extinct, it is closely tied to several nomadic languages in both mongolia and East-turkistan.  For one, the Uyghur people, the main native East-turkistanian, lived in East-Turkistan since before Tang dynasty.



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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 01:58

Tocharian may very well be ancient.  It possesses certain archaic characteristics (language relics) which had since been dropped in other IE languages.  Being related to western IE languages, its location in the Far East was unexpected.  If the Kunlun Mts. were already known as such by the Chinese as far back as about 1000 BC, when the king of Chou went west to visit the Queen of the West, than Tocharian was already present, since "Kunlun" comes from the Tocharian word klyom, meaning "heavenly". 

As for the Uyghurs, they essentially migrated into Xinjiang by AD 840 and linguistically supplanted Tocharian in favor of their Turkic language.  There is the suggestion that at a more ancient period of time, the Uyghurs, being a light-skinned Europoid population, perhaps spoke an IE language, and there is some archaeological evidence to suggest that the culture of the most anciently known region of their habitation probably came from the west.  The only thing that is lacking is proof that they oiginally spoke an IE language. 

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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 05:59

Actually, Uyghur is not one race of people who migrated to its current location.  The word Uyghur itself means United.  The origin of Uyghur can be traced back to the race f (Ti), records of them go back to Chou dynasty.  In fact this is the race that invaded Chou and started the Eastern Chou dynasty.  The race is called Til or Tingling (Which means River in the Til's language).  In Han dynasty they established (GaoChe).  After the fall of GaoChe, the rest of the two tribes combined and call themselves Uyghur (Unite).  During the (Xi Tujue, Western Koturks) rule,  Uyghur and several other tribe allied against Chula Qaghan to stop the opression.  Uyghur is the strongest of the tribes and the rest was assimilated.

Also, I am not sure if X[ (Kunlun) comes from the word klyom.  It is far more likely to come from the word Qurum (Khurum or Kurum) which means cloud or Smoke.

Tocharian is widely used in the 5th century.  Whether it was used before, I don't know.  Please tell me, I'd like to know.



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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 08:28

In this context what about Var/Uar tribes. Simokatta placed them on the banks of Til River ie. Black River in Tjurks language. Gumilev translated Uar as river or water in these languages. You say that Til means some ethnos. Isn't it all the same? Til/Tinling = Var/Uar tribe?

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  Quote mauk4678 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 08:36

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

, he had received the title of saint in Vatican but he came back Iran and became a muslim and then a Mullah and mullahs gave the title of Fakhroleslam to him!

 

Don't you have to be dead five years before the process of sainthood can begin??

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 08:56
Also, I am not sure if X[ (Kunlun) comes from the word klyom.  It is far more likely to come from the word Qurum (Khurum or Kurum) which means cloud or Smoke.

According to Zhang Qiang, the Yuezhi "originated" in the region between the Qilian Mts and Dunhuang.  Now the name "Qilian" is used in ancient Chinese sources to refer to various mountain ranges including the Kunlun Mts.  The name Qilian, itself can be traced to the Tocharian word klyom

Tocharian is widely used in the 5th century.  Whether it was used before, I don't know.  Please tell me, I'd like to know.

We do have manuscripts dating as far back as the 3rd century AD.  In classical western geographies we have the name Tocharian in various different forms as placenames in "Serica", (i.e. in Xinjiang) in the 2nd century AD.  The name is that of a people which subjugated Bactria by about 130 BC.  The beginning of this migration can be put in Kansu by about 165 BC.  Between Kansu and Bactria were various oasis cities whose populations were Europoid.  The earliest of these Europoid "Xinjiang mummies", that of the "Lady of Loulan" is dated to about 2000 BC.  Western Xinjiang formed a distinct linguistic bloc comprised of at least three Tocharian languages, including Tocharian A, Tocharian B, and Krorianic (from Kroraina, the Tocharian name of Loulan). 

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