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Liberation of Bulgaria

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Beylerbeyi View Drop Down
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Liberation of Bulgaria
    Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 16:29
You can call whatever you like to call it. In any case as usuall all sorts og killings, population movement and other happens in both sides.
 
Good, we agree then. 
 
The whole tone of your message was justifying it.
 
I beg to differ. I called the Armenian debacle 'disaster' there. And I have drawn parallels with what happened to the Turks. I clearly disapprove of both. I had no intentions of justifying either. Neither should you.
 
OK. I admit this. Do you  realize yourself that what happened to Turkishj population is in turn a result how other nations were treated being under Ottoman domination?
 
I believe that the Bulgarians and Greeks and Serbs etc. had the right to be independent from the Ottoman rule, regardless of how they were treated by the Ottomans.
 
So you basically suppose that those bands of Bulgars just attacked Muslim villages for nothing? If yes, then your point of view is no different to that of "some Bulgarian fascist".
 
My point of view is very different from any fascist indeed. I believe that they had a right to seek independence. My point is that they did consciously choose terror as a tactic. They also knew full well that the Ottomans would crack down and Bulgarians would die, and create the environment for foreign intervention, which was the only way to achieve their goal. This happened many times in Ottoman history.
 
So I do not think that they attacked the civilians because they were bloodthirsty barbarians, but because they were terrorists with a clear political agenda. While I agree in their right to achieve their general objective, namely an independent Bulgaria, I object to their methods. One can say that they were successful in the end, so maybe the Bulgarian nationalists will never question them.


Edited by Beylerbeyi - 18-Aug-2008 at 16:39
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 16:45
You are trying to escape the direct question -- do you agree that atrocities were done not only by Bulgarians, Serbs etc. but by Turks as well? :)
I do not know much about other countries, but apparently April uprising was a provocation. However to call it as tactic of terrors would be probably overestimation. There was no any program at all. Otherwise it would be better prepared.
 
Look, actions of Bulgarians, Greeks and Serbs in Macedonia may probably be considered as such.


Edited by Anton - 18-Aug-2008 at 16:46
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 16:59
You are trying to escape the direct question -- do you agree that atrocities were done not only by Bulgarians, Serbs etc. but by Turks as well?
 
? Of course they were. The Bulgarian 'terrorists' knew that the Ottomans would kill many Bulgarian civilians after the provocation. Also, OE did not conquer and hold the Balkans by distributing flowers. You can't have an Empire or, indeed, a state, without committing atrocities.
 
Look, actions of Bulgarians, Greeks and Serbs in Macedonia may probably be considered as such.
 
It's not just Macedonia or Bulgaria, that is the general model of insurrection in the Ottoman Empire. 
 
In any case, I wonder if it would have been better if Bulgaria and OE partitioned Macedonia and Thrace so that Bulgaria had an Aegean port. Would that help keep the Russians off the Ottomans' back, discourage Greece to attack the Ottomans (would they have attacked Bulgaria instead?), and Turkey out of Balkan problems earlier? Macedonian question resolved this way may have avoided a few wars. 


Edited by Beylerbeyi - 18-Aug-2008 at 17:01
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 17:15
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello Carpathian
 
Why in God's name should Britain of the west in that case care for "fellow Christians" in Balkans to become enemies for the Turks. Those countries ruled by the check book and bank account, what benifits us economically is our policy, Armenians suffered times as much as Bulgarians, Romanias and greeks combined yet the Turkish actions were supported if not publically then by the official silence on what happened to them.
 
The war of 1877-1878 was a golden opportunity down from God on the west, such a war would bleed the Turks to near death and devastate Russia economically and politically. Russia won everything in the war only to be forced to forsake it in Berlin and Tukey was bankrupted by the war only to be saved by european loans and economic help beginning by Cyprus and ending with Egypt. Russia lost up to 100k killed or died from the cholera epidemic that hit their army. Tens of thousands more were wounded and the war nearly bankrupted it. The Turks didn't lose as much but were completely bankrupted. Turkey became weak enough not to bother the big powers in their mediterranian interests and strong enough to stop Russian expansionism.
 
Finally, I don't think the Bulgarians will appreciate the occupation of some of their lands by the Romanian, as WWI clearly demonstrated, so I don't think Romanians will get much appreciationa and in any case the was was largely fought between the Russians and the Turks on Bulgarian lands and Romanian contribution was limited to the Danube region as Sarmat explained.
 
Al-Jassas 
 
Well England and the west in general historically speaking didn't find Islamic expansion favorable.
 
The Romanian contribution was thus: it allowed the Russians who were beaten out of Bulgaria to return and fight their war against the Turks. Without Romania there wouldn't have been a Russia in Bulgaria.
 
What "Bulgarian land" did Romania take? Confused
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 17:31
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

In any case, I wonder if it would have been better if Bulgaria and OE partitioned Macedonia and Thrace so that Bulgaria had an Aegean port. Would that help keep the Russians off the Ottomans' back, discourage Greece to attack the Ottomans (would they have attacked Bulgaria instead?), and Turkey out of Balkan problems earlier? Macedonian question resolved this way may have avoided a few wars. 
 
Bulgarians initially had access to Aegean Sea. It was not suitable for port though as far as I understand. The only place suitable for port was Thessaloniki which was never a trully Bulgarian city although some Bulgarian population was there. As for the rest, there was WWI which was really unescapable.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 17:54
"What "Bulgarian land" did Romania take? Confused"
 
I guess he mean South Dobruja in Second Balkan War.
 
"The Romanian contribution was thus: it allowed the Russians who were beaten out of Bulgaria to return and fight their war against the Turks. Without Romania there wouldn't have been a Russia in Bulgaria."
 
When did this "beaten out" happen?
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 18:05
In fact, if Carol didn't allow the Russian army to pass it would simply cross Romania despite any opposition. As the Russian ambassadot said in case Romania doesn't allow the Russian army to pass, "the Romanian army will be forced to be disarmed." Carol as a smart person perfectly understood that the war with weak Ottomans would be much beneficial for the country than the conflict with the Russian empire, so he agreed to the Russian demand and even contributed to the war.
 
But the point is that Russia still would cross. I actually wouldn't think that Romanian army would be very eager to fight with Russians in order to protect Turkish borders.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 18-Aug-2008 at 18:06
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 18:32
"I guess he mean South Dobruja in Second Balkan War."
 
At the time I suppose it would be Bulgarian. It has passed hands several times.
 
"When did this "beaten out" happen?"
 
When the Russians passed through to fight the Turks. Carol offered to help but the Russains said no until they started losing badly. Then the Russians asked Carol to help.
 
"In fact, if Carol didn't allow the Russian army to pass it would simply cross Romania despite any opposition. As the Russian ambassadot said in case Romania doesn't allow the Russian army to pass, "the Romanian army will be forced to be disarmed." Carol as a smart person perfectly understood that the war with weak Ottomans would be much beneficial for the country than the conflict with the Russian empire, so he agreed to the Russian demand and even contributed to the war.
 
But the point is that Russia still would cross. I actually wouldn't think that Romanian army would be very eager to fight with Russians in order to protect Turkish borders."
 
We're not talking about letting the Russian army pass. The Russian army passed, and then lost to the Turks and then asked Carol for help, and then the Romanian/Russian combined force lead by Carol made it so that the Russians could push on.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 19:35
Yes, the Romanian contribution in Pleven was important.
However, even after the Romanian army joined, the Pleven couldn't be taken and the additional Russian still reinforcements were required to complete the encirlclement of the fortress.
 
So, it can be said that Romanian army presence saved the Russian of additional logistic problems i.e. bringing even more troops to Pleven. It of course could be accomplished, but the Romanian army participation saved the Russians of additional headache.
 
However, it can be said with certainty that even if Romanians didn't join, Pleven still would be taken, but just by the Russian troops only.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 19:39
"Romanian/Russian combined force lead by Carol "
 
This is mistake. Carol never led Russian forces. All 4 seiges of Pleven were ruled by Russian Generals under formal rule of Grand Duke Nicholas.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 21:35
Hello Sarmat
 
What happened in Bulgarian in the spring of 76 wasn't ethnic cleansing, it was a military uprising that was crushed and unfortunately some massacres happened and they were the fault of Bashi bazouks, Ottoman irregulars raised from the local population which initially suffered from the rebels and wrecked their revenge on those who they found. There was no systematic massacres and actually it was the Ottoman regulars who stoped the bashi bazouks which indicates that their was no central planning but that what happened was a reactionary event. There were no forced expulsion to the main population, except in limited area and for the safety of the Bulgarians. There were no mass confiscation of property or distruction of cultural heritage of the people.
 
Unfortunately the same cannot be said to have happened to the Turks when the Russians came, hundreds of thousands were forcibly expelled from their homes in the dead of one of the worst winters the region have seen, tens of thousands were as lucky and were brutally massacred by Cossacks or bulgarian militias or even the regular Russian army itself. There was a systemtic effort to clean the liberated areas of any Turkish influence and now you can go to Bulgaria to cities built and/or exclusively populated by Turks in before 1877 and now has no Turkish population nor any remnants of Turkish heritage, Sofia only have one mosque left and it had many. Now which is ethnic cleansing?
 
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 21:44
Sarmat:
 
Pleven wasn't the only place where they fought and I think your assumption that the Russians would have been successful anyway ignores the role of the Romanian participation and number of troops contributed.
 
Anton:
 
"Osman Pasha strengthened his defences and built more redoubts while the Russians sought and obtained reinforcements from the army of Prince Charles of Romania, who made the condition that he should be given command of the joint besieging force. "
 
 
Al Jassas:
 
Disapprove How typical...
 
I read an account by the Russian Grand Duke of when he went to a village in Bulgaria and found all the men dead, the women stripped naked, blinded and killed after being raped. And how he saw a 11 or 12 year old girl walking around aimlessly with her eyes gouged out naked and sobbing. But of course your accounts of the Turks is typically bias so whatever.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 23:23
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Sarmat:
 
Pleven wasn't the only place where they fought and I think your assumption that the Russians would have been successful anyway ignores the role of the Romanian participation and number of troops contributed.
 
 
Actually Sarmat said the contribution was important, remember? :) Anyway all key generals were from Russian  Army with major contribution by general Todleben who was actually good engineer.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 23:44
Originally posted by Al Jassas

actually it was the Ottoman regulars who stoped the bashi bazouks which indicates that their was no central planning but that what happened was a reactionary event.
 
This is wrong. One of the reasons of the uprising was that Ottomans failed to stop bashibouzuks, cherkesses and kurjaliis. You are right, there was no central planning, the problem was the opposite -- there was no central planning at all. You might mention that real uprising and nationalism started in Balkans when feodal Ottoman state institutions became ineffective. Hence appearance all sorts of bandits etc who were not stopped by Ottoman administration. Bashibouzuks, as far as I remember, were even not paid so they had no choice but robbing and looting locals.  
 
 
There were no forced expulsion to the main population, except in limited area and for the safety of the Bulgarians. There were no mass confiscation of property or distruction of cultural heritage of the people.
Actually there were quite a lot.
 
 
 
Unfortunately the same cannot be said to have happened to the Turks when the Russians came, hundreds of thousands were forcibly expelled from their homes in the dead of one of the worst winters the region have seen, tens of thousands were as lucky and were brutally massacred by Cossacks or bulgarian militias or even the regular Russian army itself. There was a systemtic effort to clean the liberated areas of any Turkish influence and now you can go to Bulgaria to cities built and/or exclusively populated by Turks in before 1877 and now has no Turkish population nor any remnants of Turkish heritage, Sofia only have one mosque left and it had many. Now which is ethnic cleansing?
 
Al-Jassas  
Come on Al Jassas, you can't simplify the situation to such extent. Yes, there were massive expulsions but before this there were almost 500 years of similar things from the side of Turks, Bulgarians were not allowed to wear weapons, they paid more taxes as christians, they had to pay "blood tax", Bulgarian church was under control of Greeks who basically performed hellenization of the population, there were several uprisings that basically drained in blood. All this means that Bulgarians had plenty of reason to be not happy living under Turks. Not all though. As I mention elsewhere Stefan Bogoridi, one of rare christians having high rank in Ottoman administration strongly opposed to any liberation movement. 
 
 Also mind that there were a lot of expulsions of Bulgarians and Greeks from Ottoman territories.  There are many signs of Turkish herritage in Bulgaria, Sofian Mosque is certainly not the only one etc. :)
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  Quote Burdokva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 19:35
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

So you basically suppose that those bands of Bulgars just attacked Muslim villages for nothing? If yes, then your point of view is no different to that of "some Bulgarian fascist".
 
My point of view is very different from any fascist indeed. I believe that they had a right to seek independence. My point is that they did consciously choose terror as a tactic. They also knew full well that the Ottomans would crack down and Bulgarians would die, and create the environment for foreign intervention, which was the only way to achieve their goal. This happened many times in Ottoman history.
 
So I do not think that they attacked the civilians because they were bloodthirsty barbarians, but because they were terrorists with a clear political agenda. While I agree in their right to achieve their general objective, namely an independent Bulgaria, I object to their methods. One can say that they were successful in the end, so maybe the Bulgarian nationalists will never question them.

I'll take the risk of being a 'Balkan fascist' (though, honestly, I see no connection between the current dispute and fascism), being would be kind enough to point any reliable sources claiming that Bulgarian 'terrorist' (again, interesting term for freedom fighters) assaulting Turkish or Muslim Bulgarians villages and committing massacres against Muslim civilians?

Bulgarian rebels took a defensive tactic and fortified the rebelling Bulgarian villages in addition to creating several mountainous strongpoints. The only exception was Benkovsky's cavalry squadron which raided several train stations and was to rapidly move and aid the other rebels where and when needed. Even if a Bulgarian cheta committed an atrocity against Muslim civilians (again, I'd like to see a source for such a claim), does this justify the way in which the Ottoman Empire quelled the uprising and its general politics towards 'minorities'? 

How do you define genocide and ethnic cleansing? By the scale of it alone, by the method exercised, by the presence of will and conscious decision? The latter was clearly present when Suleiman pasha (with disciplined, regular army units) butchered 14 to 15 000 civilian ethnic Bulgarians after retaking Stara Zagora. In late July/early August, by the way. And maybe we should note that many Turks voluntarily left there homes, fearing (rightfully or not) retributions.

You are trying to excuse a state that committed serious crimes against its subjects of non-Turkish ethnic origin, crimes that by modern international law would have had extremely harsh consequences for the Ottoman Empire. There is absolutely no excuse for the Ottomans “cracking down”.  Please, I'd like to hear your opinion on this, even outside the context of the current topic?

If you believe that Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs etc. had the right of independence and their own nation states how to you propose they achieved it, when the Ottomans turned down every effort of those nations to achieve political freedom? Even before the Liberation War of 1877-78 the sultan refused to apply the decisions of the Constantinople convention and proclaimed that he granted his subjects a Constitution, which was practically abandoned within a year after the war ended in 1878. There was an absolute lack of will to give the minorities in Southern/Eastern Thrace and Macedonia political rights, local autonomy and self-management, good education.

Bulgarian revolutionary ‘terrorism’ is not the cause and an excuse for the decadence and brutality of the Ottoman state, it’s a direct consequence of Ottoman state politics. 

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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 06:55
Hello to you all
 
I totally forgot about this thread but since it was brought back to life.
 
Anyway about regular Ottoman troops trying to stop the bashi's, I returned to newspapers of that time and they claim this as a fact, also people who wrote the history of this war during this time also claim this. Now of course there were some attrocities committed by the army but those newspaper accounts say the regulars were mostly professional in their behaviour.
 
The second point is by the 1870s, the OE wasn't fuedal as you said. Bulgaria at that time was one of the centers of Ottoman industry, textiles to be particula, and the people who profited the most were Bulgarians themselves. The turks also began democratic reforms allowing for municipal elections well before the rebellion broke. The Turks actually invested more money in the Balkans than in Anatolia itself. Of course Bulgaria would have achieved much more if independent but to deny any good coming out of the OE is not true.
 
The third point about Bulgarians suffering during the Turkish years, well like it or not others suffered as much. All the people living in places far from the frontiers or were not nomadic were forbidden by law from carrying weapons wether they were muslim or not. This is one of the reasons why many of the attrocities committed during the rebellions of Ottoman ruled regions were so bloody. In Tripolis region in the Peloponnesses alone more than 30k+ Turks and muslims Greeks died according to  western estimates at that time. The reason was simple, these people didn't have any arms. Much more aggressive rebellions were not as successfull because the people there were armed and were able to defend themselves properly like the Armenian rebellions and others.
 
Finally I must admitt that Bulgaria was much more tolerant of the Turks than the greeks or other Bulkan states, only a minority did those terrible things and they were prevented from doing them after independence. Turkish heritage is all over Bulgaria but one must not forget that there were attrocities committed by both sides because it helps insure that these things never happen again.
 
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  Quote Burdokva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 11:08
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Of course Bulgaria would have achieved much more if independent but to deny any good coming out of the OE is not true.
 
Al-Jassas

I haven't, nor would I ever try to deny the achievements of the Ottoman Empire, especially in the late Medieval Ages when it was in the forefront of the most well organized and disciplined states. My point is that these successes of Ottoman culture and state organization were never applied (with the needed modifications) to the foreign people in the Empire, Armenians, Bulgarians, and Greeks etc (not counting the forced Islamisation during the late XVIth and XVIIth centuries, which is a different matter).

And while the Ottomans, except in times of crisis, did not act with extreme violence and brutality against other nations, they also refused to modernize the Empire based on the achievements of those other nations. Ottoman social organization was forced from ‘above’ on people who didn’t understand it, and worse, could cope with it.

But by the time of the industrial revolution the Empire was a backwards (even if still strong in military sense) state. Greeks and Bulgarians revolted in the XIXth century exactly because their own regions were better developed and they wanted to modernize their societies and economies based on Western standards. The Ottoman state was simply holding them back with its obsolete administration, laws and esnaf economic organization. Had the Ottomans accepted the proposals of the Great Powers in the Constantinople convention of 1976 (creating two large, autonomous Bulgarian regions under the nominal power of the sultan), or better, before the April Uprising, I'm sure that relations between the two nations and states would have been vastly better.

Especially in economic terms, since Bulgaria (being after all an autonomous, but part of the Empire) could have provided cheaper industrial goods, while using the vast territory of the Ottoman state as an internal market for its goods.

Just some 'food for thought'.

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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 16:18
Burdokva,

There is no point in denying that the Bulgarian chetes attacked Muslim villages to incite a reaction from the Ottoman state, which would later lead to Great Power intervention. That's not just Bulgaria, and indeed half of Ottoman history in the 19th century. My main sources are Hobsbawm (he seems to like Bulgarians), and Stefanos Yerasimos' articles originally published in French (I have the Turkish translations).

Bulgarian rebels took a defensive tactic and fortified the rebelling Bulgarian villages in addition to creating several mountainous strongpoints.
Of course they did because they knew the Ottomans would react. However, they were spectacularly unsuccessful, compared to what other Balkan chetes accomplished.

Even if a Bulgarian cheta committed an atrocity against Muslim civilians (again, I'd like to see a source for such a claim), does this justify the way in which the Ottoman Empire quelled the uprising and its general politics towards 'minorities'?
'Even if'? So you believe Bulgarian hayduts were noble freedom fighters who revolted in the name of humanity and never hurt anyone... Of course they committed atrocities. And of course it does not justify the heavy-handed Ottoman reprisals, or their policies. Nobody said it does.

How do you define genocide and ethnic cleansing? By the scale of it alone, by the method exercised, by the presence of will and conscious decision? The latter was clearly present when Suleiman pasha (with disciplined, regular army units) butchered 14 to 15 000 civilian ethnic Bulgarians after retaking Stara Zagora. In late July/early August, by the way. And maybe we should note that many Turks voluntarily left there homes, fearing (rightfully or not) retributions.
I think genocide and ethnic cleansing are not different. And I don't dispute that the Ottomans committed it in the Balkans and elsewhere. The numbers quoted by all sides are usually inflated (sometimes ridiculously so), but that is not the point. The point is, you can not say that the Ottomans comitted ethnic cleansing but 'demographic revolution' of Bulgaria was not ethnic cleansing. Which is what nationalists do. Turkish nationalists do it the other way. You are both wrong.

You are trying to excuse a state that committed serious crimes against its subjects of non-Turkish ethnic origin, crimes that by modern international law would have had extremely harsh consequences for the Ottoman Empire. There is absolutely noexcuse for the Ottomans “cracking down”.  Please, I'd like to hear your opinion on this, even outside the context of the current topic?
You are imagining things. I am not trying to excuse anyone. In fact, I agree with you, Ottoman Empire was a reactionary state at the time. And the Bulgarians had the right to independence.  Ethnicity for me is not important, even if they were Turks and wanted to live in a progressive regime, they would be right to revolt.

As to modern parallels, they are irrelevant. Nevertheless, Turkey cracked down on the Kurds in the 30s pretty hard and suffered no consequences whatsoever. Recently it again cracked down on the Kurds (admittedly less harsh) again without any consequences. I won't even mention what other countries did/still do without any consequences (Israel I am looking at you). The reason Ottomans's behaviour led to bad consequences was because:
a. they were weak (when they were stong, they could crack down on anyone they liked)
b. the imperialists were looking for excuses to partition it.

If you believe that Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs etc. had the right of independence and their own nation states how to you propose they achieved it, when the Ottomans turned down every effort of those nations to achieve political freedom? Even before the Liberation War of 1877-78 the sultan refused to apply the decisions of the Constantinople convention and proclaimed that he granted his subjects a Constitution, which was practically abandoned within a year after the war ended in 1878. There was an absolute lack of will to give the minorities in Southern/Eastern Thrace and Macedonia political rights, local autonomy and self-management, good education.
You make good points here and I don't disagree. Abdulhamid II was oppressive for everyone. I would not be against armed uprising either. What I am against is:
a. imperialist penetration into the near east (I believe Bulgarian uprising was a Russian project). While Ottomans were imperialists as well, they were getting weaker and at some point independent states (not imperialist lackeys) could have been created in the Balkans and the Middle East. That way the world could maybe have avoided two world wars and many middle eastern wars.    
b. use of terror tactics against civilians. 
Still, I would not be against targeting of Ottoman army and state offices (these are terror tactics as well), demos, strikes, civil disobedience and such mass action. If the Ottomans responded to those by terrorising the people, then I would even be lenient towards Bulgarian reprisals against civilians, like I am towards the Palestinians who are being terrorised daily by the Israelis. It would be unfair to hold both sides to the same standard.
I agree with the Bulgarian cause, but I fail to see the Ottoman state terror to justify the initial Bulgarian terror tactics. They should have started with more peaceful tactics. However, the point was that the whole point was to prepare the conditions for a Russian intervention which would give them a Bulgaria. That I disagree with.

Bulgarian revolutionary ‘terrorism’ is not the cause and an excuse for the decadence and brutality of the Ottoman state, it’s a direct consequence of Ottoman state politics.
I agree with this with one little (or maybe not so little) addition, Ottoman and Russian state policies.  

I haven't, nor would I ever try to deny the achievements of the Ottoman Empire, especially in the late Medieval Ages when it was in the forefront of the most well organized and disciplined states. My point is that these successes of Ottoman culture and state organization were never applied (with the needed modifications) to the foreign people in the Empire, Armenians, Bulgarians, and Greeks etc (not counting the forced Islamisation during the late XVIth and XVIIth centuries, which is a different matter).
This is not true. Greece and Bulgaria at the time of their independence were the most advanced lands in the whole Empire. (Side note: Imperialist sources (especially Western) at the time write that this is because of the racial inferiority of the Turks and the superiority of the Christian peoples such as the Bulgarians and whomever. Internet is still full of fascists/idiots who believe these Western newspaper reports are 'neutral' sources on the matter. Most of them are only useful as toilet paper.)  
Ottomans did develop their lands (at least the strategically important ones) when they were strong and rich, and Christians and Muslims and Jews all benefitted. And in the 19th century they had little control of their economy, which was totally dependent on the Western imperialists (not Russia) who enjoyed special benefits and a local comprador bourgoisie, a class composed totally of Ottoman Christians who carried dual citizenships. For example, in early 20th century Anatolia, Christian minorities under Imperialist protection enjoyed wealth and power far greater than their demographics would suggest, so you can not make a case for Christians being oppressed while Muslims were rich and powerful in the Empire. For instance, Armenians were given the right to form 50% of the local government in provinces where they were 25% of the population.  

Although it should be said that Bulgarians were not as lucky as other minorities. They were always mostly peasants. 

And while the Ottomans, except in times of crisis, did not act with extreme violence and brutality against other nations, they also refused to modernize the Empire based on the achievements of those other nations. Ottoman social organization was forced from ‘above’ on people who didn’t understand it, and worse, could cope with it.
Actually Ottomans did not 'refuse' to modernise, they tried but failed. And some of the modernisers knew very well what they were doing. But you are, of course, right about the consequences, Ottoman Empire was a backwards place like the Russian (the great bulwark of reaction until 1917) and even Austrian Empires and deserved its fate.

But by the time of the industrial revolution the Empire was a backwards (even if still strong in military sense) state. Greeks and Bulgarians revolted in the XIXth century exactly because their own regions were better developed and they wanted to modernize their societies and economies based on Western standards. The Ottoman state was simply holding them back with its obsolete administration, laws and esnaf economic organization.
This is correct.

Had the Ottomans accepted the proposals of the Great Powers in the Constantinople convention of 1976 (creating two large, autonomous Bulgarian regions under the nominal power of the sultan), or better, before the April Uprising, I'm sure that relations between the two nations and states would have been vastly better.
Yes, ideal solution would be achieving an autonomous Bulgaria through Ottoman reform, however, I am not aware of the details of the particular agreement. The autonomous Bulgaria should not be the first step towards the future Russian satellite of 'Greater Bulgaria' which would ethnically cleanse its Muslim population. Or another tool of imperialist economic domination.  I would distrust any Great Power involvement in the matter.


Edited by Beylerbeyi - 14-Jan-2009 at 16:32
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  Quote Burdokva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 19:05

I'd like to point something - the April Uprising was never a Russian project. Yes, it aimed to force the governments of the Great Powers (not limiting to Russia) to act and impose reforms on the Ottomans due to the public pressure the revolt would cause in Western (and Russian) societies. That was the whole idea of the Constantinople Convention, which was a project driven mostly by the English.

Had the sultan accepted it, the Russian wouldn't have had their carte blanche and start a war. I think that you're also severely underestimating the influence of the Russian society and public opinion on the matter. Yes, that tsar and his government had an agenda of their own (that's a widely known fact in modern Bulgarian education), but the hundreds of thousand Russian army volunteers and humanitarian aid-workers were more concerned about the welfare of a civilization-aly related nation.

As to how much Bulgaria turned into a Russian puppet (the great fear of Western Great Powers that led to the debacle and brutal oppression that is the Berlin Treaty of 1878), I'd say check the pre-communism history of my country. 

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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 19:43
I have detailed how I see the issue in many posts. I don't believe in much 'public pressure on the Tsar'. Tsar wanted the public to be excited about this and fed them the propaganda. Also, public pressure on the British Prime minister, maybe, on the Russian Tsar, not really.

Of course Bulgarian romantic nationalist discourse paints the matter in this light; 'rightous struggle of the Bulgarian nation for independence with the benevolent help of racial brothers'.  

As to how much Bulgaria turned into a Russian puppet (the great fear of Western Great Powers that led to the debacle and brutal oppression that is the Berlin Treaty of 1878), I'd say check the pre-communism history of my country.
Since you haven't read what I have written here before, I will repeat some of it. Russian project indeed failed in the end, and Bulgaria became a Western dependency rather than a Russian one. Not very Huntingtonian of you to betray you 'civilisational relative', by the way (I personally think that theory is bollocks). 

This failure of the Russians was a major reason when later the Armenians tried the same tactics in Anatolia, Russia was not as willing to help. They did not want to invest in an Armenia, and lose the profits to the Westerners as was the case with Bulgaria...   
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