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Liberation of Bulgaria
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Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Liberation of Bulgaria
    Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 06:01
I am curious to know the Bulgarian perspective on what happened in Bulgaria during the  Russo-Turkish war (1877-1878).
 
1. What is taught in school.
 
2. What is said of Nicolas.
 
3. What is said of Carol I.
 
 
From my basic understanding the Russians wished to pass through Romania to fight the Turks in Bulgaria. The Romanians agreed as long as the national integrity of Romania would be maintained. Carol I of Romania offered the Russians help, who turned him down. After the Russian troops passed through Romania, they fought in Bulgaria against the Ottoman Turks and were pushed back. Carol I of Romania again offered to help and the Russians had no choice but to accept. Carol I then lead a combined Romanian/Russian force and liberated Bulgaria from the Ottoman Turks.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 06:18
Not really.
 
Romanian troops took part in the siege of Pleven and played really important role there. They also took several Turkish forts on the Danube. But they didn't moved further south.
 
The complete liberation of Bulgaria was achieved by the Russian troops who reached as far as Andrianopole and were preparing to enter Istanbul but the British intervention in the final minute stopped the war at that point.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 17-Aug-2008 at 06:21
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 06:20
Also I'm not sure who you mean by Nicolas. If you meant the Russian emperor. It was not Nicholas, but Alexander the IInd.
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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 06:26
Not really what part? I know the Russians were defeated and won after Carol I lead them with Romanians in several sieges. But they did not go further south? Is that pretty much the gist of it?
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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 06:28
I read Nicolas' name somewhere. I'll take your word for it.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 06:42
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Not really what part? I know the Russians were defeated and won after Carol I lead them with Romanians in several sieges. But they did not go further south? Is that pretty much the gist of it?
 
Russians together with Romanians still were not able to capture Pleven by the direct assault. So the Pleven was taken only after the long siege when the fortress was complitely surrounded by the both armies and the Turks ran out of supplies.
 
And also although the Pleven was taken in the end, it didn't mean the complete liberation of Bulgaria.
 
It was achieved only after Russians defeated the Turks at the battle of Shipka pass and draw the Turks out of the southern Bulgaria.
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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 06:51
So the role of Carol I was more so of piercing Ottoman Bulgaria allowing the Russians in to go further south.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 06:58

I think that Romanian contribution during the siege of Pleven was important. Romanians also secured the Russian rear on the Danube. But it's wasn't like Carol's leadership liberated Bulgaria.



Edited by Sarmat12 - 17-Aug-2008 at 07:00
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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 07:03
No. But it did allow for the Russians to go into Bulgaria in the first place. Too bad the Russians later took Basarabia and Bukovina from them. =/ Some way to thank Romania.
 
Funny story, my great great grand father was raised at a monestary and if he ever swore he would get whapped. The only time he swore was when he fought against the Ottoman Turks. "fututi turnu mati" literally "f--- you're mother's tower" refering to the Turkish towers in place.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 07:14

Do you think it would be in the interests of Romania not to allow Russians to pass? After all, the result of the war was the complete independence of Romania.
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Posts: 175 		  Quote Władysław Warnencz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 15:32

A huge percent of the soldiers,who fought in the russian armies in Bulgaria were in fact poles,drawn to the russian army by force,because at that time part of Poland was occupied by RUssia.In fact russians were occupying more nations than the ottomans and were liberators for the bulgarians,but occupators for many others.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 16:34
How big was the huge percentage?
 
I known that the Russian army included considerable contingent of Finnish soldiers, "Finnish Guard".
 
Poles as citizens of the Russian empire were obliged to answer the draft. However, it's interesting that a lot of ehtnicities in the Empire were actually exempted from the draft.
 
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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 16:59
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Do you think it would be in the interests of Romania not to allow Russians to pass? After all, the result of the war was the complete independence of Romania.

 
Romania was never really ever a part of the Ottoman Empire. Simply a tributary state. I think the complete independence would have happened regardless. In any case I don't think it was right for the Russians to take parts of Moldova.
 
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 17:08
Yes, but in order to compensate the loss of the southern Bessarabia, Russia gave the Danube delta and Dobruja to Romania.
 
And if the independence was not that important why is it still a national holidy in Romania? Apparently it does have a meaning for Romanian people.
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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 17:19
It doesn't matter what their excuse was. Why take Romanian land after they agreed to respect its national integrity?
 
Where did I say the independence was not important?
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 17:49
Russia as an empire first of all took into consideration its own interests. Southern Bessarabia was lost after the Crimean war. So, the Russian concern was to restore the empire in its previous borders.
Of course it was not fair for Romania, but this is how it worked in the 19th century.
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 22:45
As an overall summary, the war ended with a huge defeat for the Ottoman Empire, who actually was left alone in the world stage after France & Britain left acting as a balancing force to Russian aggression, instead joining to the partition of the empire. This intention was to become more and more clear in annexations made by France & Britain (1878- Cyprus, 1881- Tunisia, 1882- Egypt).
 
Ottoman Empire was living its worst days of decline after series of bad years with inner complications and problems. Post-Crimean War era saw the Ottoman Treasury counting zeroes and debts taken from European states couldn't be re-paid, so it was on the verge of collapse. Ottomans' first trial for a parliamentary monarchy ended quite soon after Abdulhamid II virtually terminated the parliament after the declaration of war.
 
Despite some heroic local figures and commanders have made great individual efforts(like of Nene Hatun in Azizieh Line to protect Erzurum, Ahmed Muhtar Pasha in early phases of Caucasian front, Gazi Osman Pasha in Plevne) and some successful resistance has been created against Russian army, largest numerical force of world at the time, these only delayed the Russian advance for several months.
 
Outnumbered and outgunned Ottoman armies retreated till Edirne in West and Erzurum in East at the end. War had to stop as Russia couldn't move further due to international balance. Russia enforced the Treaty of San Stefano(Ayestefanos), with heavy terms for Ottomans, which created a "Greater Bulgaria" within the influence of Russia, and it could have been a great tool which could be of perfect use for the Russian benefits. This "Greater Bulgaria" included all of today's Macedonia and large parts of today's Greek Macedonia, and even some of Eastern Thrace. San Stefano included harsher provisions for Ottoman Empire, was strongly favoring Russian interests.
 
Great Powers denied Russian wishes and a conference assembled in Berlin, creating Treaty of Berlin, which(likewise San Stefano) resulted in total and recognized independence of Romania, Serbia and Montenegro. However, Greater Bulgaria project was denied and Bulgaria was to remain as an autonomous principality within the Ottoman Empire, only to gain full independence in 1908.
 
An interesting aspect of this treaty was its creation of a new tension area. Bosnia & Herzegovina.
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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 23:21
I think it is so typical of England and friends to try to stop Russian expansion against the Turks even though really the Turks were the enemies of both groups. They British feared Russia would somehow go as far as push into India.
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 23:45
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

I think it is so typical of England and friends to try to stop Russian expansion against the Turks even though really the Turks were the enemies of both groups. They British feared Russia would somehow go as far as push into India.
 
Ottoman Empire and Britain were not enemies till Britain decided to follow the policy of partition of the empire. That amounts to 1870s.
 
Before that, there was no hostilities.
 
There are no permanent allies or enemies within politics. There are actual interests, and allies and enemies are dependant on those actual interests.
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2008 at 23:47
Apparently, San-Stefano Bulgaria would be largest Balkan state and its dependence/good relationship with Russia Empire would screwed up interests of GB an Austria in this region. Hence the Berlin treaty. Bulgaria was split into 2 -- Principality of Bulgaria and Pricipality of Eastern Roumelia, Macedonia and all southern territories were taken off. First one was practically independent although important decisions had to be aproved by Ottoman Empire. After the war Russia continued to help the new state creating state institutions, army, economical aid etc. All this support ended when Bulgarians proclaimed unification of both pricipalities which was not supported by Russia. This led to the situation when Bulgarian army was left without generals and high rank officers who were all Russians at this time.
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